Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

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Where did I quote Travis? I didn't. I was summing up his addiction to sex with Jodi. Facts do matter, I agree. The old adage that we are entitled to our own opinions, not our own facts, is especially pertinent here. Your interpretations are based on your reading of the chat. Others may disagree. I'll return to this when I get to my desk later.


Quote: "Travis admitted he was addicted to the sex."

He didn't.

Everyone here knows I welcome opinions and debate. And I imagine everyone here also knows I put a lot of work into researching and writing up/paraphrasing the actual record (7 months of the text record, for example) so that those with an interest can base their opinions on the facts that are available.

For myself, I don't have any interest in debating opinions about this case that are just general opinions-- it's been 3 years now, and that territory has long since been covered, and I have even less interest in debating opinions that misstate the factual record. Plenty enough room to debate that record, and that debate continues to be interesting, IMO.
 
Last try. Out of order. As in, the sections of the chat are out of order. Not in proper sequence. Sections had to be reorganized to be put in order. I spend many days watching every minute of both trials and reading tweets and trial logs of PP2 to get clues about the proper sequence and to capture any and all mentions of time for specific lines of the chat. I spent more days -unfun days- figuring out why and how the chat was put together the wrong way in the only available transcript that is available to us- BK's, which was pilfered by Juror13. Same transcript.

Then I spent more days piecing the thing together in the proper sequence, checking against times, etc. from testimony.

As is, it is in the wrong order. Taylor has nothing whatsoever to do with how the transcript is ordered and has never spoken in any interview anywhere saying more than just that- TA was pissed she'd gotten into his FB, etc.

And, BTW. The chat is 15 pages long. 99% of it has nothing whatsoever to do with her FB intrusions, and in fact, FB doesn't even come up at all until well into the chat.


I read the chat many times as well and watched every second of the trial plus the books and interviews. I'd enjoy reading the order you suspect the chat goes as well.

It's just my opinion. He's mad that she's invaded his privacy. Facebook, email..
There is no mention of blackmail or the sex tape at all.

I believe the transcript presented by Martinez, an officer of the court, was as accurate as possible.
 
Quote: "Travis admitted he was addicted to the sex."

He didn't.

Everyone here knows I welcome opinions and debate. And I imagine everyone here also knows I put a lot of work into researching and writing up/paraphrasing the actual record (7 months of the text record, for example) so that those with an interest can base their opinions on the facts that are available.

For myself, I don't have any interest in debating opinions about this case that are just general opinions-- it's been 3 years now, and that territory has long since been covered, and I have even less interest in debating opinions that misstate the factual record. Plenty enough room to debate that record, and that debate continues to be interesting, IMO.

A close friend of Jodi Arias' former boyfriend and murder victim Travis Alexander says that he became addicted to having sex with his beautiful brunette girlfriend. Dave Hall had been friends with Alexander for almost 11 years and believes the Mormon was addicted to having sex with Arias, "Jodi was Travis' drug of choice. Anyone that thinks sex can't be addictive is nuts."
 
I read the chat many times as well and watched every second of the trial plus the books and interviews. I'd enjoy reading the order you suspect the chat goes as well.

It's just my opinion. He's mad that she's invaded his privacy. Facebook, email..
There is no mention of blackmail or the sex tape at all.

I believe the transcript presented by Martinez, an officer of the court, was as accurate as possible.


The only available transcript of the chat is not the record that was presented in court. The chat record presented in court was also a compilation of individual pages of chats, but every line of the chat in the court record had a time attached, unlike in the available transcript, which has no times included at all.

If you want to try the exercise for yourself, go to BK's trial log for MK's testimony about the chat (day 10 or 11, iirc), write down the times that are mentioned for specific lines in the chat, print out a transcript of the chat from BK, and see for yourself how out of order the transcript is.

Here's the first clue: Read from page 1 to 15, rather than backwards. The first line is: and by the way your little comment to Danny Jones...... From the time presented in court, that line occurs at 2:36. Bur the chat starts at 2:33. Big 'ole ETC ETC after that...
 
A close friend of Jodi Arias' former boyfriend and murder victim Travis Alexander says that he became addicted to having sex with his beautiful brunette girlfriend. Dave Hall had been friends with Alexander for almost 11 years and believes the Mormon was addicted to having sex with Arias, "Jodi was Travis' drug of choice. Anyone that thinks sex can't be addictive is nuts."


Mister, one of the most destructive things the did was to effectively isolate TA from reality testing about her with his closest friends. David Hall had known TA for a long time, but he wasn't one of TA's closest friends. much less a confidante TA spoke with about having sex. Chris Hughes was a much closer friend, but he didn't confide in Chris about what was going on with the either.

Virtually all of those who considered themselves closest to TA were shocked to learn after his death that he wasn't a virgin, no matter his reputation as an incorrigible flirt. IMO, it must have been extremely difficult and painful for them to reconcile the man they thought they knew (and did, for the most part) with the Travis the succeeded in exposing.

DeMarte is for me the gold standard in psychological interpretation. She saw Travis as having the sexual interests of a normal 30 year old man. I accept what she said about their "relationship": that Travis enjoyed the sex she so freely and willingly made available, but that he did not like, or welcome, her constant intrusions into his privacy.

JA was a problem for him as long as she remained in Mesa, as he said so himself (she can and does get in the way of my getting married, which I need to do). But then she left Mesa. Things changed. He went on without her...somehow. He flirted with other women, courted other women, pursued Mimi with marriage in mind before that fizzled all the way out. He was less and less in tough with the , and you know from reading the texts, SHE brought up sex or brought on the lewd in their text exchanges, he did not.

And that was before her craziness that by mid-May had effectively destroyed what remained of his goodwill towards her.

The main problem I have with the assertion of addicted is that it doesn't square very much with what happened after she left Mesa, and by mid-May, not at all.
 
Interpretations are one thing, facts another.

The chat was about lying, and the chat was often about sex because the threat she had made was about sex. Their sex. Revealing it to her bishop. That is also not interpretation, but fact. The foreman of PP2 said the jury saw an email we don't have access to, that it was a threat by her that she was going to her bishop. The jury as a whole concluded it was this threat which had made Travis so angry on May 26.

This is also interpretation, not fact.

Quote from the foreman's interview:

"We however did find something that wasn’t brought out in court. It was a text from Jodi Arias to Travis Alexander stating to him she needed to speak to the Bishop about the sex stat. We felt this may have been the trigger for Travis’s anger. At this point I still had the impression Travis’s emotional abuse was consistent over time. We ended our day and went home."

The interview can be found here:
http://thetrialdiaries.com/exclusivethe-foreman-from-the-jodi-arias-trial-speakshear-his-story/

Also, Chris and Sky Hughes mentioned in their interview with Dr. Phil (gag) that TA's bishop already knew about the sex, and that the catalyst for May 26 couldn't have been that.

Their interview (comments on this topic start at 21:30)
[video=youtube;W2qr05dBgsg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2qr05dBgsg[/video]

So, yes, interpretation is one thing, and facts are another. Unfortunately, we don't have any facts that explain why TA was so mad that day.

Kate
 
The main problem I have with the assertion of addicted is that it doesn't square very much with what happened after she left Mesa, and by mid-May, not at all.

Except for this. LOL.

https://spotlightonlaw.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/travis-alexander-nude-photo-lt.jpg?w=470&h=279

He hates her guts (May 26 chat), and yet there are naked pics of them on his camera the day he died. If that isn't addicted, then I'm not sure what would qualify.

I'm sorry. Feeling very ornery today!

Kate
 
This is also interpretation, not fact.

Quote from the foreman's interview:

"We however did find something that wasn’t brought out in court. It was a text from Jodi Arias to Travis Alexander stating to him she needed to speak to the Bishop about the sex stat. We felt this may have been the trigger for Travis’s anger. At this point I still had the impression Travis’s emotional abuse was consistent over time. We ended our day and went home."

The interview can be found here:
http://thetrialdiaries.com/exclusivethe-foreman-from-the-jodi-arias-trial-speakshear-his-story/

Also, Chris and Sky Hughes mentioned in their interview with Dr. Phil (gag) that TA's bishop already knew about the sex, and that the catalyst for May 26 couldn't have been that.

Their interview (comments on this topic start at 21:30)
[video=youtube;W2qr05dBgsg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2qr05dBgsg[/video]

So, yes, interpretation is one thing, and facts are another. Unfortunately, we don't have any facts that explain why TA was so mad that day.

Kate



Lordy, if we all knew the FACT of what happened on May 26 I would have moved on from all this at least a year ago. Nope, we sure don't know.

But it is a fact that we did not know until after the PP2 trial the fact that JA had threatened TA just before May 26 with going to her bishop. That was new. And, according to the foreman, extremely relevant to the jury. Yep, I agree with that interpretation.

The Hughes' bald statements that TA's bishop "knew about the sex" or that TA had caught her in some scam or fraud is nonsense, IMO. TA's bishop would never have confided n anyone what TA did or did not tell him. Sky and Chris didn't even know until after his death that TA had lost his TR for the second time in January 2008. They invited him in spring 2008 to an event that required him to be temple-worthy. He didn't tell them why he wasn't going to be able to attend.

I'll spare you what I think of the opinion of "friends" who knew about JA sleeping under TA's Christmas tree, and who had witnessed for themselves her slobbering all over him in public, and hitting on PPL fellers to make him jealous, yet believed the crap she told them about their dear friend, and were willing to take her word over that of their dear friend. Yep, the same dear friends who believed Nurmi that TA was a pedophile (yah, yah, innocent of the law and all that).

After TA's murder they learned of that loss of TR. For TA to have lost it, he must have voluntarily confessed his sexual transgressions to his bishop. So yes, his bishop knew of his transgressions as of January. But..he transgressed again, and yet again. The Hughes have no way of knowing whether or not TA reported each transgression. It comes too close to victim-bashing to bring up what is clear from the texts, but suffice it to say..nope, I very much doubt TA was reporting to his bishop the repeats of what caused him to lose his TR.

JA knew about at least some of those transgressions, though, in part because they involved her, and in part because she was hacking into his SM accounts. She spent a whole lot of time manufacturing an online record she could use against him. For whatever reason. To whomever.

She knew on May 14th that TA had busted her for hacking, etc., and by May 19 she knew TA was exposing her. What she did in response is a matter of opinion, but I'm very comfortable with my opinion that her response was to try to retaliate by exposing him, given the coincidental "theft" of her Helio at that time, and her threat she sent to TA about going to her bishop.
 
“They had a chat where he tore her apart,” Searle recalled. “He called me and told to me what he had said to her. I said, ‘Aren’t you afraid she’s going to hurt you?’”

Alexander responded, “No. She’s crazy, but she’s harmless.”
 
Just curious why you believe she was taking video? There's no evidence to support that, that I know if. Though I do remember something being said during the trial about being unable to recover a deleted video--or something like that. Is that what you're drawing this conclusion from? IMO, it was more likely a happygrownupfuntime video (if there was a video taken at all that day). But, of course, we have nothing to prove either scenario.

Why do you think the time was off by several hours? Just wondering if I missed something about the time stamps?

Kate
Video - I explained it in my post #796. It's not based on what JA said or any mentions of videos being unrecoverable after deletion.

True timeline - The main reason is I don't think JA had enough time to clean up after the murder then leave before Enrique came home at 6 - 6:30 pm. She was dragging T at 5:33 pm. She still had to shove him in the shower, clean herself up, change clothes, do laundry, delete photos, etc.

I have no proof for any of my speculation. All JMO.
 
Lordy, if we all knew the FACT of what happened on May 26 I would have moved on from all this at least a year ago. Nope, we sure don't know.

But it is a fact that we did not know until after the PP2 trial the fact that JA had threatened TA just before May 26 with going to her bishop. That was new. And, according to the foreman, extremely relevant to the jury. Yep, I agree with that interpretation.

Right, great points and I totally see where you are coming from. And it illustrates my point perfectly. None of this is fact. It's all interpretation. So we can't really fault Tex for his interpretation that Travis was addicted to the sex (an opinion I share). That was the point I was trying to get at--in my very wordy, convoluted way. LOL.

Kate
 
I agree with you that he was extremely angry with her for invading his privacy. He had been angry about that all along. As he said to her on May 26, he had caught her "30 times," and yet she kept on doing it. IMO he was especially angry about the FB invasion for 2 reasons: he had confronted her on May 21-22 about her MariaM game, and once again, had forced her to confess.

He called her a psycho, but he couldn't have believed she was really that, or he would have known just how little her confessions and apologies meant. IMO he set her up on May 13-14 to make it stop, caught and confronted her about MariaM to make it stop, tried to make it stop by refusing to speak to her again until she confessed in writing, and yet...she did it again, sometime between May 22 and May 25 she hacked into his FB and tried to "send something down the pipeline" in his name.

Of course he was angry with her for all that. And more.

The reason why it's important to read the chat in the proper order is because it is the only way to have any sense of how things unfolded that night/day. Read in the wrong order, they leave off with him waiting for her email. Or in mid-chat, talking about Danny Jones. In the correct order, and keeping in mind that she had not yet revealed "part 2," it is clear a phone conversation followed; that she had not yet told him the "incriminating" thing she refused to put in writing. What that was is completely a matter of opinion, but again, I'm comfortable at this point, given all the info available, that the sex tape was the incriminating thing that wasn't spoken about in the chat .
 
This is also interpretation, not fact.

Quote from the foreman's interview:

"We however did find something that wasn’t brought out in court. It was a text from Jodi Arias to Travis Alexander stating to him she needed to speak to the Bishop about the sex stat. We felt this may have been the trigger for Travis’s anger. At this point I still had the impression Travis’s emotional abuse was consistent over time. We ended our day and went home."

The interview can be found here:
http://thetrialdiaries.com/exclusivethe-foreman-from-the-jodi-arias-trial-speakshear-his-story/

Also, Chris and Sky Hughes mentioned in their interview with Dr. Phil (gag) that TA's bishop already knew about the sex, and that the catalyst for May 26 couldn't have been that.

Their interview (comments on this topic start at 21:30)
[video=youtube;W2qr05dBgsg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2qr05dBgsg[/video]

So, yes, interpretation is one thing, and facts are another. Unfortunately, we don't have any facts that explain why TA was so mad that day.

Kate

Yes. Travis had gone to his bishop. He was working on his repentance. His temple privileges were suspended. Chris and Sky had a baby on April 30th. They wanted Travis to attend the blessing of Taj in the Temple at the beginning of June. Travis was invited but didn't immediately commit. He checked with his bishop and then let them know he'd be unable to participate.
 
Right, great points and I totally see where you are coming from. And it illustrates my point perfectly. None of this is fact. It's all interpretation. So we can't really fault Tex for his interpretation that Travis was addicted to the sex (an opinion I share). That was the point I was trying to get at--in my very wordy, convoluted way. LOL.

Kate

No, it's not ALL interpretation, though a lot of it is that. The threat about going to the bishop, and it's timing just before May 25, is fact, not interpretation. That virtually all the chat has nothing at all to do with privacy intrusions or FB is a fact, not an interpretation, etc.

I don't fault Mister for anything, lol, but I think he misinterprets the word "addiction" TA uses in the chat, as Mister knows, and think whether or not TA was "addicted" to sex is irrelevant, as he wasn't addicted to her (as he amply demonstrated after May 22), and it is a matter of absolute speculation and nothing more what happened on June 4 other than the reality she slaughtered him that day.
 
Yes. Travis had gone to his bishop. He was working on his repentance. His temple privileges were suspended. Chris and Sky had a baby on April 30th. They wanted Travis to attend the blessing of Taj in the Temple at the beginning of June. Travis was invited but didn't immediately commit. He checked with his bishop and then let them know he'd be unable to participate.



Without telling them why. I can understand why he didn't confide in them about such things, but fact is, he didn't.

I remember well enough that poor bishop in PP2 being subjected to Nurmi's verbal assault about whether or not the church frowned upon each and every specific sexual transgression Nurmi spat out. The tied to a tree rape fantasy thing really didn't go over well with the Bishop. Neither did the 12 year old and orgasm thing, nor the mention of full intercourse.

The had all of that on hand to produce to back up her tales to the bishop, or more probable, her empty threat to TA that she might go.
 
And yet you're here.


Tex, I can't find your post about the pockets and falling out. Those look like that have good sized packets. They're gaping open,
and you can see the zipper in the back if you zoom in on the inside of the pant legs.


In the letter to the family she told of her terrible injury of a torn toenail in the "fight" with the female ninja. If she had socks on (I do think she does) she probably snagged it on a thread in the sock and that tore it. The socks would also help her have more a "purchase" on the tile floor, instead of barefeet.

View attachment 90594

Could be the very same style of pants (she said she had two, one that was a bit too small but at a good price so worked for her) but in a different color, most of T's bathroom in that pic is the right color so her pants couldn't be x-rayed with light being dark and dark made light. The stripes are much lighter than the pant fabric in the pic (and in real life, I believe) but likely very close to this style.
 
Without telling them why. I can understand why he didn't confide in them about such things, but fact is, he didn't.

I remember well enough that poor bishop in PP2 being subjected to Nurmi's verbal assault about whether or not the church frowned upon each and every specific sexual transgression Nurmi spat out. The tied to a tree rape fantasy thing really didn't go over well with the Bishop. Neither did the 12 year old and orgasm thing, nor the mention of full intercourse.

The had all of that on hand to produce to back up her tales to the bishop, or more probable, her empty threat to TA that she might go.

He did tell them. It's in their book. He even confessed the details of his transgressions with Jodi in front of some church elders (one of whom was Mimi's father). He told them Mimi's dad was incredibly kind to him.
I don't think he'd care if Jodi went to her Bishop.
 
Could be the very same style of pants (she said she had two, one that was a bit too small but at a good price so worked for her) but in a different color, most of T's bathroom in that pic is the right color so her pants couldn't be x-rayed with light being dark and dark made light. The stripes are much lighter than the pant fabric in the pic (and in real life, I believe) but likely very close to this style.


Chat and pants in stereo, lol. Bring on the pants. ;)

Time to go hug and hang out with my just arrived kid (report card came home today--99% in social studies! 98% in math! 97% in English arts! 94% in science!) WOOT!!!!!
 
No, it's not ALL interpretation, though a lot of it is that. The threat about going to the bishop, and it's timing just before May 25, is fact, not interpretation. That virtually all the chat has nothing at all to do with privacy intrusions or FB is a fact, not an interpretation, etc.

The chat was about lying, and the chat was often about sex because the threat she had made was about sex. Their sex. Revealing it to her bishop. That is also not interpretation, but fact. The foreman of PP2 said the jury saw an email we don't have access to, that it was a threat by her that she was going to her bishop. The jury as a whole concluded it was this threat which had made Travis so angry on May 26.

Yes, the reasons behind the May 26 argument are ALL interpretation/speculation. JA's threat about the bishop may be a fact, but unless it can be connected to the May 26 argument, then it's irrelevant as a catalyst. And I have no idea how the issue of privacy intrusions or FB is relevant at all to what we are discussing--so I can't really answer to that.

Just curious, because I am interested in looking at all sides (so I am not asking this in any way to be disrespectful). When TA says he is addicted in the gchat (twice), what do you think he means by that? What is he addicted to?

Kate
 
Above - BBM

Thanks for answering, Geevee although I find it confusing in part, so please bear with me. Are you now saying that what you previously stated were toes are now fingers? Below is the photo of the dragging scene from Juan Martinez' book. This is a clear, wider photograph than the one from Detective Flores monitor with the 'fingers and gold ring' (the one I suggested was a reflection from the desk onto the monitor in court). You entirely dismiss this possibility. Please can you point where the fingers are on the clear photo below? You previously provided helpful red circles and arrows. If at all possible, could you do so with the picture from Juan's book below?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=89470&d=1455670907

I see nothing at all on the exact same dragging photograph above. FinallyRegistered provided a helpful diagram outlining the foot, etc. Again, I see no bare toes or fingers on the photo above. I conclude that the glare in court explains the fingers imposed on the monitor. Just in case I was missing something, I thought I'd ask for more detail. There is no blur on the photo above. The distorted finger blur is from a shot of the monitor of Detective Flores. I am interested in the evidence and welcome robust debate. You make a point about your words being strong - it's the evidence being strong or weak that I am interested in. I have no issue at all with how you expressed them and would welcome a reply. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree if you don't want to debate this further.

You misunderstood my references TW, the 'dragging' photo is the last accidental pic (5:33:32 time stamp as mentioned above), in that pic there are clearly fingers in the very forefront of the picture:

53332day6jmfingers.jpg

There are no fingers that I can find in the pant leg (5:32:16 time stamp) photo, just the blur of her foot/toes as she (I believe) is still attacking Travis. I have posted before about the toes in the pics from trial, this one if harder to make out but you can see the blur of toes along the tile:

53216toes2.jpg

If I had better photo editing equipment I might be able to bring out more detail, but I have what I have and use it as best I can. :)
 
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