Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #6

[TexMex]

What a nightmare for you and your family. Thank heavens that your grandchild is safe. Isn't it interesting how women saw through her? I'm not suggesting men aren't capable of doing so but with Arias I was struck by the female jurors ability to see fake very clearly (with the exception of one idiot on the second trial). The jury foreman who defended Arias from the death penalty used some strange language to explain why. It suggested he had been influenced by her gender or looks.

On a side note, I think Arias ramping up the ugly in court was a bad move. I know it's stereotypically the strategy of defence teams to make victims seem unthreatening, mousy. I don't think the fake glasses and hideous clothes helped soften her in any way.

She's a nightmare and is very similar to Jodi. Her mother did take her to a psychiatrist and she was supposed to be on some medicine but she wouldn't take it because "it made her fat".

I also made sure I hired a female attorney for my son. This lawyer had seen a lot in family court over the years and was speechless after seeing this girl lie on the stand, lie to CPS, lied to her own lawyer etc. The lies and manipulations were really incredible.

Yesterday, at the Jungle Book movie there's a part where Mowgli decides to leave the wolf pack and the mother wolf who had raised him tells him she'll always love him and be there for him. My little buddy reached out in the dark and grabbed my hand. I am so angry at this woman who only saw her own little boy as another tool to manipulate people with and cared so little about him she lied to cps and even refused to take parenting classes the court required her to complete.

After the movie, we were in my truck on the way home and my six year old grandson looks over and says "Pa, you're my best friend".

I think Jodi not being able to reproduce is a very very good thing

 

[Hope4More]

BBM

The bolded part I agree with completely. It was exactly what the defence wanted us to think. It's one of the reasons why they played the tape. Making Travis look as bad as possible on that tape was carefully crafted Arias manipulation. The tape was the first real introduction the public had to Travis. It was his voice. Arias posed questions to make him seem as judgemental as possible. She hit each mark precisely as an unsuspecting Travis criticised various people whilst Arias fake defended them.

Travis didn't sound like a very nice guy on that tape. Disinterested, tired, bored in places. It was intended to shock for more than just the sexual elements. One of the reasons so many people love Juan Martinez is that he did not allow this to pass. He brought the real Travis into the courtroom, introduced us to the love and loyalty of his family and friends. Travis should never have had to be 'rehabilitated'. He was a normal young man slaughtered by a jealous, psychotic, evil non-entity. The defence strategy may have worked with a less brilliant prosecutor. Martinez let Arias expose her true self through lies, smirks, immature snarling and responses. Each time he did it, he discredited what she had to say about Travis. The public saw the truth and supported justice for Travis in a massive wave of love for his family and friends. On this forum, I've seen people feel embarrassed that their first impression of Travis was poor. I empathise entirely yet it was entirely natural given the defence smears and that damn tape. No one need feel bad about seeing Travis' flaws as these same people also saw his sweetness and kindness thanks to Juan. Luckily, the jury convicted her of murder and a measure of justice was served.

Travis was trying to become a better person. I agree he would have reflected, matured, learned more with age. Arias will never learn, grow, mature. She is stuck at evil for eternity.

I never believed what the said about Travis, not a word of it. Which is why for me it took reading through his texts, how he was with others in his life, to get any sense of him for myself. If I could choose just one piece of info to share here in it's entirety, it would be the complete exchange of emails between Travis and Sky and Chris of January 2007. They reveal a great deal about Travis, warts and all, but primarily they are IMO an incredible testimony to his fundamental honesty, decency, and huge heart.

What I was saying about running the other way had absolutely nothing to do with anything she said about him...just that cocky (he was) Republican, pro-gun, very Mormon (he was) young men aren't who I normally feel any affinity with.

Adding--I didn't dislike at all the Travis I heard on that tape. Mostly it felt overwhelming to hear his voice for the first time, and when he began to sing, heartbreaking. That and it was difficult not to feel the fog of her victimhood lies lifting....what a mistake it was for the DT to introduce that tape- yay.

I think I'm in the minority in not having a problem with even anything he told her on May 26. Was it harsh? Sure. And IMO she deserved every single last word he said and more.

 

[Hope4More]

She's a nightmare and is very similar to Jodi. Her mother did take her to a psychiatrist and she was supposed to be on some medicine but she wouldn't take it because "it made her fat".

I also made sure I hired a female attorney for my son. This lawyer had seen a lot in family court over the years and was speechless after seeing this girl lie on the stand, lie to CPS, lied to her own lawyer etc. The lies and manipulations were really incredible.

Yesterday, at the Jungle Book movie there's a part where Mowgli decides to leave the wolf pack and the mother wolf who had raised him tells him she'll always love him and be there for him. My little buddy reached out in the dark and grabbed my hand. I am so angry at this woman who only saw her own little boy as another tool to manipulate people with and cared so little about him she lied to cps and even refused to take parenting classes the court required her to complete.

After the movie, we were in my truck on the way home and my six year old grandson looks over and says "Pa, you're my best friend".

I think Jodi not being able to reproduce is a very very good thing

(((TexMex))). I'm glad you and your grandson have each other to love.

--------

The lying. I did some reading awhile ago on the experiences of those who'd been involved with sociopaths, and what happened when they'd caught their sociopathic other lying.

It helped me understand how it might be possible for a victim to feel at some level "forced" into denial, and suppression of their gut instincts.

How else to respond to someone who says they love you, and after being begged to tell the truth, holds up something red and says you're wrong, that's blue? Or, when shown a date and timed stamped photo of herself responds- that's not me. It looks like me, but it can't be me.

I can't imagine having to deal with that kind of lying, but I can imagine at some point the victim of those lies beginning to feel crazy himself.

 

[GigiG]

I never believed what the said about Travis, not a word of it. Which is why for me it took reading through his texts, how he was with others in his life, to get any sense of him for myself. If I could choose just one piece of info to share here in it's entirety, it would be the complete exchange of emails between Travis and Sky and Chris of January 2007. They reveal a great deal about Travis, warts and all, but primarily they are IMO an incredible testimony to his fundamental honesty, decency, and huge heart.

What I was saying about running the other way had absolutely nothing to do with anything she said about him...just that cocky (he was) Republican, pro-gun, very Mormon (he was) young men aren't who I normally feel any affinity with.

Adding--I didn't dislike at all the Travis I heard on that tape. Mostly it felt overwhelming to hear his voice for the first time, and when he began to sing, heartbreaking. That and it was difficult not to feel the fog of her victimhood lies lifting....what a mistake it was for the DT to introduce that tape- yay.

I think I'm in the minority in not having a problem with even anything he told her on May 26. Was it harsh? Sure. And IMO she deserved every single last word he said and more.

BBM 1

Yeah, those aren't qualities that I find endearing either, but I recall Chris Hughes (I think) talking about what a big flirt he was, even blatantly flirting with married women in the presence of their husbands; obviously doing it as a joke. I have friends like that, and I like guys with that kind of personality.

My own brother, whom I absolutely adore and who is definitely NOT a Mormon, will start up a conversation with an attractive woman then turn to me and say sotto voce, "I think I just met my future ex-wife." (I think that may have been a line from a movie?) Perhaps I'm a bit warped, but I think that's funny and more than a little charming.

BBM2

If anything, I admire the restraint he showed on May 26. I hate to admit the extreme level of invective I would have unleashed on her had I been him. His few mean-spirited jabs pale in comparison! LOL

 

[TexMex]

(((TexMex))). I'm glad you and your grandson have each other to love.

--------

The lying. I did some reading awhile ago on the experiences of those who'd been involved with sociopaths, and what happened when they'd caught their sociopathic other lying.

It helped me understand how it might be possible for a victim to feel at some level "forced" into denial, and suppression of their gut instincts.

How else to respond to someone who says they love you, and after being begged to tell the truth, holds up something red and says you're wrong, that's blue? Or, when shown a date and timed stamped photo of herself responds- that's not me. It looks like me, but it can't be me.

I can't imagine having to deal with that kind of lying, but I can imagine at some point the victim of those lies beginning to feel crazy himself.

The lies are unreal. This woman too stole a diamond ring. Took a ring I bought for our 20th anniversary and pawned it. Bought herself a handbag with the money. We knew she took it. Told our son. He confronted her and got some convoluted story. I told him all I wanted was the ring back. I took her to the pawn shop and had to buy back wife's ring. And the girl acted like she was doing me a favor.
By the time our son finally left her she had his head so confused he thought up was down. He told us several times he thought he'd gone crazy, not her. Very scary. I understand the cycle Travis was in

 

[Hope4More]

BBM 1

Yeah, those aren't qualities that I find endearing either, but I recall Chris Hughes (I think) talking about what a big flirt he was, even blatantly flirting with married women in the presence of their husbands; obviously doing it as a joke. I have friends like that, and I like guys with that kind of personality.......

There are other kinds of cockiness that aren't as light, but in any case, all that is just a matter of personal preference, and has little to nothing to do with the Other. (I'm a nerd, what can I say? My life-long preference has been for intellectual, quietly confident & gentle, with a wicked/edgy sense of humor. .

And oh my, I quite agree Travis was restrained with her on May 26. I've said from the very beginning that what's astonishing is that the was NOT abused, and by every BF she ever had, after they'd been pushed beyond all tolerance.




(why is this down here? )......If you're warped, I'm warped in the same way. . I also find that kind of schtick funny and charming, at least when it's coming from a good heart.

 

[TrialWatcher]

She even tried to use the religion to "connect" with Flores. She gathered that he was raised Mormon and began to insert that she too was Mormon every chance she could. Wanted to "protect" Travis. Talking about wards, temple etc. Wore a BYU shirt when she went to Mesa PD to give DNA

That puts another spin on the Detective Flores interviews. I didn't realise he was raised Mormon (or missed that detail). That makes his rebuttal of her attempts to shame Travis even more joyful.

 

[Hope4More]

The lies are unreal. This woman too stole a diamond ring. Took a ring I bought for our 20th anniversary and pawned it. Bought herself a handbag with the money. We knew she took it. Told our son. He confronted her and got some convoluted story. I told him all I wanted was the ring back. I took her to the pawn shop and had to buy back wife's ring. And the girl acted like she was doing me a favor.
By the time our son finally left her she had his head so confused he thought up was down. He told us several times he thought he'd gone crazy, not her. Very scary. I understand the cycle Travis was in

That really is scary. Especially given your familiarity with the kind of situation Travis found himself in --being dragged down by a sociopathic narcissist with BPD, another time, I'd really like to understand why (if I got it right) you don't attribute TA's inability to break free earlier to what she was and how off balance he felt, rather than to "addiction" or whatever.

 

[TrialWatcher]

She's a nightmare and is very similar to Jodi. Her mother did take her to a psychiatrist and she was supposed to be on some medicine but she wouldn't take it because "it made her fat".

I also made sure I hired a female attorney for my son. This lawyer had seen a lot in family court over the years and was speechless after seeing this girl lie on the stand, lie to CPS, lied to her own lawyer etc. The lies and manipulations were really incredible.

Yesterday, at the Jungle Book movie there's a part where Mowgli decides to leave the wolf pack and the mother wolf who had raised him tells him she'll always love him and be there for him. My little buddy reached out in the dark and grabbed my hand. I am so angry at this woman who only saw her own little boy as another tool to manipulate people with and cared so little about him she lied to cps and even refused to take parenting classes the court required her to complete.

After the movie, we were in my truck on the way home and my six year old grandson looks over and says "Pa, you're my best friend".

I think Jodi not being able to reproduce is a very very good thing

The last point is a huge relief. I dread Casey Anthony ever having another child. Children deserve better than the parents sometimes allocated to them.

Your grandson sounds like he was having the best time. You too! Truly special moments - brought tears to my eyes. The perfect innocence of children is infinitely precious. It's impossible to contemplate how a parent can betray that without becoming angry and sad. To add so much love and security to a child's life is incredibly special. To take it away from your own child - or never give it - I simply will never understand that level of selfishness.

 

[LinasK]

She even tried to use the religion to "connect" with Flores. She gathered that he was raised Mormon and began to insert that she too was Mormon every chance she could. Wanted to "protect" Travis. Talking about wards, temple etc. Wore a BYU shirt when she went to Mesa PD to give DNA

Fortunately for us, Flores was not the Lou Smits of the JonBenet Ramsey case- who prayed with his suspects!!!

 

[LinasK]

I never believed what the said about Travis, not a word of it. Which is why for me it took reading through his texts, how he was with others in his life, to get any sense of him for myself. If I could choose just one piece of info to share here in it's entirety, it would be the complete exchange of emails between Travis and Sky and Chris of January 2007. They reveal a great deal about Travis, warts and all, but primarily they are IMO an incredible testimony to his fundamental honesty, decency, and huge heart.

What I was saying about running the other way had absolutely nothing to do with anything she said about him...just that cocky (he was) Republican, pro-gun, very Mormon (he was) young men aren't who I normally feel any affinity with.

Adding--I didn't dislike at all the Travis I heard on that tape. Mostly it felt overwhelming to hear his voice for the first time, and when he began to sing, heartbreaking. That and it was difficult not to feel the fog of her victimhood lies lifting....what a mistake it was for the DT to introduce that tape- yay.

I think I'm in the minority in not having a problem with even anything he told her on May 26. Was it harsh? Sure. And IMO she deserved every single last word he said and more.

BBM. No Hope, I feel the exact same way, although I do see that what TexMex saying about Travis's being critical of other Mormons (holier than thou) was hypocritical. I don't however hold it against him. Jodi was a far bigger hypocrite. When was it ever discussed what a lousy Mormon she was??? He wasn't harsh, he was honest.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I never believed what the said about Travis, not a word of it. Which is why for me it took reading through his texts, how he was with others in his life, to get any sense of him for myself. If I could choose just one piece of info to share here in it's entirety, it would be the complete exchange of emails between Travis and Sky and Chris of January 2007. They reveal a great deal about Travis, warts and all, but primarily they are IMO an incredible testimony to his fundamental honesty, decency, and huge heart.

What I was saying about running the other way had absolutely nothing to do with anything she said about him...just that cocky (he was) Republican, pro-gun, very Mormon (he was) young men aren't who I normally feel any affinity with.

Adding--I didn't dislike at all the Travis I heard on that tape. Mostly it felt overwhelming to hear his voice for the first time, and when he began to sing, heartbreaking. That and it was difficult not to feel the fog of her victimhood lies lifting....what a mistake it was for the DT to introduce that tape- yay.

I think I'm in the minority in not having a problem with even anything he told her on May 26. Was it harsh? Sure. And IMO she deserved every single last word he said and more.

How did you form your opinion that Travis was cocky? Or know he had pro-gun views before the trial? My first knowledge about the case was through 48 Hours. I knew little about Travis beyond that he was a victim of a shockingly cruel slaughter by an obvious liar. I wonder how others here got to know about it? I didn't believe Arias' story or any of her lies. Her manner during the 48 Hours interview was beyond bizarre. My first 'real' impression of Travis was that sex tape. For many people - jury too - that was probably their first exposure to a less one-dimensional portrait. It was his own voice. People formed opinions based on what he said, not what Arias said alone.

I have read the texts, emails, watched the trials and feel that I now know more about Travis' through the a range of information and sources. My original impression of hearing his voice and that tape was not favourable. I thought they were both religiously hypocritical but the sexual element was dull drivel. It showed Arias up in a bad light given her play acting on the stand. This was not Travis at his best. Arias banked on a less than favourable impression sticking. Juan Martinez filled the picture in re Travis. We were given broader brush strokes and a wider canvas.

Personally, I don't think the cell phone messages show Travis in a great light at times. Not on their own. That's why I don't think Juan was keen to introduce too many of them. Telling Lisa he loved her one minute, interspersed with his dealings with Arias might not have been received well. Non of these things represent huge issues or abnormal behaviour. The SMS messages show Arias in a much worse light often.

As for the 26 May, I don't think you are in the minority. Quite the opposite. Travis' explosion of anger was understandable given all she had done. Some of the terms used were unfortunate but nowhere near the level of abuse she had subject him to. The jury didn't find that those words justified her actions or excused her from a murder conviction. They were a factor in the death penalty decision though and selective reading by ALV.

It was a huge mistake for the defence team to introduce the tape. Absolutely.

 

[LinasK]

(((TexMex))). I'm glad you and your grandson have each other to love.

--------

The lying. I did some reading awhile ago on the experiences of those who'd been involved with sociopaths, and what happened when they'd caught their sociopathic other lying.

It helped me understand how it might be possible for a victim to feel at some level "forced" into denial, and suppression of their gut instincts.

How else to respond to someone who says they love you, and after being begged to tell the truth, holds up something red and says you're wrong, that's blue? Or, when shown a date and timed stamped photo of herself responds- that's not me. It looks like me, but it can't be me.

I can't imagine having to deal with that kind of lying, but I can imagine at some point the victim of those lies beginning to feel crazy himself.

BBM. The technique is often referred to as "gaslighting"- to make the other person think they are crazy. Somebody recently posted what old movie the term came from...

 

[GigiG]

How monstrously calculating she was. To use religion as emotional blackmail so soon after meeting him.

Those recordings with Detective Rachael Blaney - spot on regarding Arias' demeanour. It made me cringe to see how spectacularly Detctive Blaney was failing to connect with her Mormon conscience. Arias had no interest in religion beyond a means to an end. It was just another act. In court and interviews her answers revealed this. The Blaney tapes also show how uninterested Arias was in connecting with a woman. There is a different energy when Detective Flores was interviewing. Arias uses her breathless little girl voice. It failed. I think that's part if the reason she despises Detective Flores, refusing to even give him a respectful title in court.

I was almost embarrassed for her with her obvious flirting with Detective Flores. Even after he kept bringing up his wife and how long they'd been married, she didn't let up...

 

[TrialWatcher]

BBM. (...) Jodi was a far bigger hypocrite. When was it ever discussed what a lousy Mormon she was??? He wasn't harsh, he was honest.

I agree. The defence team wrong-footed themselves so often.

PS: A side note. I love this:

"JeSuisJuif
JeSuisCharlie"

 

[LinasK]

The lies are unreal. This woman too stole a diamond ring. Took a ring I bought for our 20th anniversary and pawned it. Bought herself a handbag with the money. We knew she took it. Told our son. He confronted her and got some convoluted story. I told him all I wanted was the ring back. I took her to the pawn shop and had to buy back wife's ring. And the girl acted like she was doing me a favor.
By the time our son finally left her she had his head so confused he thought up was down. He told us several times he thought he'd gone crazy, not her. Very scary. I understand the cycle Travis was in

Glad you made her do that!!

 

[GigiG]

She's a nightmare and is very similar to Jodi. Her mother did take her to a psychiatrist and she was supposed to be on some medicine but she wouldn't take it because "it made her fat".

I also made sure I hired a female attorney for my son. This lawyer had seen a lot in family court over the years and was speechless after seeing this girl lie on the stand, lie to CPS, lied to her own lawyer etc. The lies and manipulations were really incredible.

Yesterday, at the Jungle Book movie there's a part where Mowgli decides to leave the wolf pack and the mother wolf who had raised him tells him she'll always love him and be there for him. My little buddy reached out in the dark and grabbed my hand. I am so angry at this woman who only saw her own little boy as another tool to manipulate people with and cared so little about him she lied to cps and even refused to take parenting classes the court required her to complete.

After the movie, we were in my truck on the way home and my six year old grandson looks over and says "Pa, you're my best friend".

I think Jodi not being able to reproduce is a very very good thing

Aw, I am quite moved by this tidbit regarding your relationship with your grandson. You're a good G-Pa and he's lucky to have you.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I was almost embarrassed for her with her obvious flirting with Detective Flores. Even after he kept bringing up his wife and how long they'd been married, she didn't let up...

GigiG, it was the creepy voice mostly, don't you think? She didn't use the slightly breathless girly voice with Detective Blaney. As Tex Mex pointed out, she stared at her like she had three heads. Also, that bit where she leans forward to look at the nude pics of herself. The way she stretches so far across the table into Detective Flores' space?

Arias: "Ohhh... that looks like me". Not a hint of embarrassment or 'shame' or Mormon religious sensitivity to sexual nudity.

[video=youtube;tl01kF96-10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl01kF96-10&list=PLrAJFqIjBGeBWQ8jumn4nJ92njqRQwm0k&index=16[/video]

Above, from 22 minutes in.

DF drew her in like a fish on a hook.

 

[GigiG]

BBM. The technique is often referred to as "gaslighting"- to make the other person think they are crazy. Somebody recently posted what old movie the term came from...

Teehee, the movie was actually called "Gaslight." 1944, Directed by George Cukor, starring Ingrid Bergman, Charles Boyer, Joseph Cotten, and, in her screen debut, an 18-year-old Angela Lansbury...

 

[GigiG]

GigiG, it was the creepy voice mostly, don't you think? She didn't use the slightly breathless girly voice with Detective Blaney. As Tex Mex pointed out, she stared at her like she had three heads. Also, that bit where she leans forward to look at the nude pics of herself. The way she stretches so far across the table into Detective Flores' space?

Arias: "Ohhh... that looks like me". Not a hint of embarrassment or 'shame' or Mormon religious sensitivity to sexual nudity.

[video=youtube;tl01kF96-10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl01kF96-10&list=PLrAJFqIjBGeBWQ8jumn4nJ92njqRQwm0k&index=16[/video]

Above, from 22 minutes in.

DF drew her in like a fish on a hook.

Yes! The breathy voice she used with Flores, as well as her trying to make small talk with him as if they were on a date and not in an interrogation room, and she being charged with Murder1. Add to that her schoolgirl giggling here and there. She really is a study in not normal behavior.

But for me, the clincher was her leaning across the table to look at the nude pics, almost putting her fake breasts in his face...:facepalm: