Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

[b_lab7410]

Psychopathic Emotional Paradox: Real vs. Fake

It's said that psychopaths do not feel emotions, they can only imitate them. A popular way of putting this is to say they cannot feel the music of emotions, but can only learn the words. This aspect of psychopathy may account for, or be tied closely to, their lack of empathy, or lack of conscience. The psychopaths display of emotions is thought to be just that, a display, an act, used to manipulate others and take advantage of the fact that others do feel true emotions, and can be influenced by them.

There is undoubtedly some truth to this, but how then does one account for the brutal and raw emotions, obviously real, which are apparent in the way Arias killed Travis? Importantly, this emotion, as real as it may have been, was not followed by any sense of guilt, remorse, or responsibility.

Never the less, it is an apparent paradox, and I think attempting to resolve it may give a deeper insight into the psychopathic mind.

I think the key to this paradox is the very key to the psychopathic mind. They undoubtedly have real emotions, but they are emotions completely divorced from the social context in which emotions are traditionally believed to exist, and are thought to depend upon.

The psychopathic mind is similar in structure and function to a normal mind, the key difference is that it exists in a profound isolation, one that disallows any real connection, any empathy. It is locked completely within itself. Any social interaction is then necessarily superficial, and eventually, perhaps even naturally, becomes manipulative.

Conscience develops in a normal mind through identification, when the developing mind sees itself more and more reflected in others. This process is missing in a psychopathic mind.

Well they enjoy/feel something*. Manipulating humans, taking advantage of emotions, they have triggers like all humans (if something environmentally hurts their projected 'god-like' image - insecurity from birth much?), but it's their nature to prey upon whom they have sized up as weaker. JA enjoyed toying with Travis, as each day went on. Whether or not that was subconscious at first, she recognized she enjoyed hurting him by the time she was taking a knife to his/Lisa's tires and ringing the doorbell. I presume she lead herself up to it, she grew more comfortable violating his personal boundaries in other ways (and the cyclical breaking and entering at night - perhaps she was really sleeping over those nights in anticipation of any of TA's possible female overnight guests?).

The 'emotion,' is really a release of adrenaline/stress, containing their 'personalities' must be awfully 'difficult' - a triggering event must very much lead to a full episode of psychosis. Are those emotions? Or psychosis? JA developed her mind into quite a pathological one, the need to eliminate a 'threat' to her so-called desire for motherhood and a marriage partner and/or to eliminate the man who was her self-made cause of mental instability. I mean she is improperly wired.. I presume if they have no empathy for others, they have none for themselves - it's a constant 'poor me' complex. And a lack of coping mechanisms. There is a disconnect, for sure. But at some stage, the difference between a psychopathic mind that kills and one that does not - are choices. Her diary, "I try to be a good person every day." Sounds like she's quite aware of her demons - she made a choice to reject the idea that TA wasn't 'her's' to damage (I don't think she truly loved him, she didn't have feelings - she had urges - strong ones - but she didn't truly appreciate Travis as anything but her's and enjoyed hurting more than sex or 'loving' him).

They say these psychopaths are narcissists anyway, taking issue to authoritative types. Narcissists 'feel' for themselves... Motivation for those feelings are based on a need to satisfy overall sense of superiority, only. JA's maternal drive, desire for a partner, psychopaths do feel, yet only when exposed to stimuli.

In other words, she grew up with married parents, community of individuals around her/society that tells her making babies and getting married are the things 'to do,' whether to fit in or she wanted to dispel any inferiority stemming from any probable peer group/adolescent antagonization as many psychopaths face an 'awkward adolescence' for 'not fitting in.' She really only faces a rather 'temporary' or fleeting desire for those things - the rest of her is not wired that way. Stimuli, hormones, IMO, not independent enough to be called genuine emotions.

I'm sure it crossed her mind to showcase her 'possessions' to the likes of Deanna or Lisa one day. "Look, Travis and I are Mr. and Mrs., and we're on cloud 9 because the cherry on top is our baby."

These are just categories for someone like her to check mark, a shopping list. Nothing more. Her 'emotions' end at the check mark. She'll soon end up mentally sabotaging any descendant's destruction, honestly.

 

[Steve44]

Well they enjoy/feel something*. Manipulating humans, taking advantage of emotions, they have triggers like all humans (if something environmentally hurts their projected image of a practically 'immortal' entity - insecurity from birth much?), but it's their nature to prey upon whom they have sized up as weaker. Arias enjoyed toying with Travis, as each day went on. Whether or not that was subconscious at first, she recognized she enjoyed hurting him by the time she was taking a knife to his/Lisa's tires and ringing the doorbell.

The 'emotion,' is really a release of adrenaline/stress, from keeping themselves primarily concealed - a triggering event must very much lead to a full episode of psychosis. Are those emotions? Or psychosis? The need to do something, in Arias' case, the need to eliminate a 'threat' to her so-called desire for motherhood/marriage partner and/or to eliminate the man who was her self-made cause of mental instability.

Besides, aren't all psychopaths narcissists? They take issue to all authoritative types. Narcissists 'feel' for themselves... Motivation for those feelings are based on a need to satisfy superficial sense of superiority, only. JA's maternal drive, desire for a partner, psychopaths do feel, yet only when exposed to stimuli.

In other words, she grew up with married parents, community of individuals around her/society that tells her making babies and getting married are the things 'to do,' whether to fit in, or she actually had the temporary/fleeting desire for those things - the rest of her is not wired that way.

I'm sure it crossed her mind to showcase her 'possessions' to the likes of Deanna or Lisa one day. "Look, I've got Travis, and we're on cloud 9 because the cherry on top is our baby."

These are just categories for someone like her to check mark, a shopping list. Nothing more. Her 'emotions' end at the check mark. She'll soon end up mentally sabotaging any descendant's destruction, honestly.

My primary thesis is that psychopaths live in a profound isolation that is almost incomprehensible to most people, and my post was about how this related to the emotions of a psychopath, leading to the conclusion that there is a double layer of emotions, the primary one belonging only to the deepest, isolated mind. A dichotomy not present in a normal mind.

There is also the entire arc of the development of the ego in light of this profound, fundamental isolation. The very nature of this isolation may naturally lead to a sense of superiority and entitlement. As there is no emotion of empathy to accompany social interaction, that social interaction will become increasingly manipulative, with the only motivator being completely selfish by necessity, the only happiness, and the only sadness, that can be felt is ones own. This naturally leads to a profound selfishness, or narcissism, the root of which, again, is the fundamental isolation which is the psychopaths only reality.

 

[b_lab7410]

My primary thesis is that psychopaths live in a profound isolation that is almost incomprehensible to most people, and my post was about how this related to the emotions of a psychopath, leading to the conclusion that there is a double layer of emotions, the primary one belonging only to the deepest, isolated mind. A dichotomy not present in a normal mind.

There is also the entire arc of the development of the ego in light of this profound, fundamental isolation. The very nature of this isolation may naturally lead to a sense of superiority and entitlement. As there is no emotion of empathy to accompany social interaction, that social interaction will become increasingly manipulative, with the only motivator being completely selfish by necessity, the only happiness, and the only sadness, that can be felt is ones own. This naturally leads to a profound selfishness, or narcissism, the root of which, again, is the fundamental isolation which is the psychopaths only reality.

I see, well for what it's worth, I do believe JA was neglected from normal human interaction - Sandy and Bill seem 'off.'

But I don't believe she was as isolated as TA. Both had/have siblings. Her psychopathy leading her to disconnect from her siblings however, I believe narcissism is a 'taught' trait. That is usually parental influence. The mother or father have narcissistic traits themselves, the child emulates their parent. This is true of both narcissists - mainly male (son to father) and with borderlines - trait inherit in the mother/daughter relationship. It is not always the case and affliction is probably more determined by whom she had spent the most time with. The communication style - she is very verbal, quite honestly, I think she was not as isolated as exposed to an individual with these traits for quite the duration of time. I know her parents reject responsibility, but I detect JA's traits in them as well.

I'll leave my two cents at that, but I again, see SA as a component/model for JA.

 

[Steve44]

I see, well for what it's worth, I do believe JA was neglected from normal human interaction - Sandy and Bill seem 'off.'

But I don't believe she was as isolated as TA. Both had/have siblings. Her psychopathy leading her to disconnect from her siblings however, I believe narcissism is a 'taught' trait. That is usually parental influence. The mother or father have narcissistic traits themselves, the child emulates their parent. This is true of both narcissists - mainly male (son to father) and with borderlines - trait inherit in the mother/daughter relationship. It is not always the case and affliction is probably more determined by whom she had spent the most time with. The communication style - she is very verbal, quite honestly, I think she was not as isolated as exposed to an individual with these traits for quite the duration of time. I know her parents reject responsibility, but I detect JA's traits in them as well.

I'll leave my two cents at that, but I again, see SA as a component/model for JA.

The isolation I'm referring to is not socially mediated, however early in development. It's more like a physical dislocation of the mind, a genetic gap or barrier that isolates it at a very, very deep level from the very beginning.

 

[QueenOfDarts]

I think you're right about her hiding the gun so carefully.. Because she was going to go thru the border of Mexico (she is fluent in Spanish) I think she was probably done packing. Except of course was going to leave her journal and shoebox of receipts for the detectives to find. She knew Mexico will only extradite if Death Penalty is off the table. The gun.. Well that depends if anyone she "wanted to kill" was on the way to Mexico. I'm sure she wanted to get there ASAP especially after finding out detectives called and question her workplace and she quit immediately.

 

[QueenOfDarts]

She probably was fleeing to Mexico and knew the best job under the radar was to be a prostitute... Something I do believe she had practiced before!

 

[QueenOfDarts]

Hey maybe it was eight guys. She could use all those condoms then kill em all after

 

[QueenOfDarts]

I did too for your same reason, until we found out that she had made both DB and MM basically accomplices by involving them in her preparations for the trip. Then we found out that MM had told her to keep him out of it so she couldn't reliably use him after the murder and DB would always put his son first, something she was well aware of. That opened them up imo, plus the fact that she had things packed for both of them in her new rental. Then there was also GS who claimed to have info that could hurt her case(do we know if JA had actually called him the night of the murder as he had claimed?) as well as possibly the friend of MM's that JA had alleged they'd gone to karaoke with, who if real, likely couldn't be trusted to keep his mouth shut if cornered by the police about her. As for the Hughes', as much as JA may have harboured ill feelings for them among some of TA's other close friends, I really don't think they would have been in danger(at least not immediately) from her, though I can see her perhaps stalking and terrorizing them for a few years first but only if she had gotten away with TA's murder. It's not like much of the community there hadn't already fingered her, that's how she was forewarned after all... iirc at least DF and AD had both kept her informed of that and I think even RB had told her there was talk about her as a suspect way up in SLC.

What did she pack in her new rental for DB and MM?? I never knew she did

 

[b_lab7410]

The isolation I'm referring to is not socially mediated, however early in development. It's more like a physical dislocation of the mind, a genetic gap or barrier that isolates it at a very, very deep level from the very beginning.

I don't want to contradict your theory, I'm sure it quite depends on the individual psychopath, I'm pretty certain I've read about drug addicts damaging the mind of their young well enough and the such.. however, there are psychopathic minds that do quite well socially, they are conditioned/nurtured from birth - if they have been conditioned to bond properly, (and I wonder if that has much to do with how the mind is still in growth stage, hence why they state it is too early for anyone to determine a 'psychopathic child,' genes even evolve, etc etc).

 

[TexMex]

What did she pack in her new rental for DB and MM?? I never knew she did

IIRC kitchen items for Darryl and books for Matt
She also testified she intended to return the gas cans

 

[TrialWatcher]

* Those involuntary little smiles are what I call the liar's smile. As in they know they have no credible answer for the question just asked of them, but they'll still give you their best b.s. answer anyway. That guilty, liar's smile almost always says, "ok... ya got me. But how 'bout this...?"

And, yes, they are delighted in thinking they just excused away or deflected another pointed question with yet another clever, nimble, rEdiculous, non-sensical answer. They really don't know how pathetic they look to the thinking public.

There are times when those sorts of smiles are offered to gain someone's trust and to say "hey, look... it's really simple", but in Arias' case it's not believable. It's a giveaway.

What you call a liar's smile is very close to the term 'duper's delight' which IIRC body language experts use to describe the same behaviour. You summed it up really nicely.

 

[RickshawFan]

Psychopathic Emotional Paradox: Real vs. Fake

It's said that psychopaths do not feel emotions, they can only imitate them. A popular way of putting this is to say they cannot feel the music of emotions, but can only learn the words. This aspect of psychopathy may account for, or be tied closely to, their lack of empathy, or lack of conscience. The psychopaths display of emotions is thought to be just that, a display, an act, used to manipulate others and take advantage of the fact that others do feel true emotions, and can be influenced by them.

There is undoubtedly some truth to this, but how then does one account for the brutal and raw emotions, obviously real, which are apparent in the way Arias killed Travis? Importantly, this emotion, as real as it may have been, was not followed by any sense of guilt, remorse, or responsibility.

Never the less, it is an apparent paradox, and I think attempting to resolve it may give a deeper insight into the psychopathic mind.

I think the key to this paradox is the very key to the psychopathic mind. They undoubtedly have real emotions, but they are emotions completely divorced from the social context in which emotions are traditionally believed to exist, and are thought to depend upon.

The psychopathic mind is similar in structure and function to a normal mind, the key difference is that it exists in a profound isolation, one that disallows any real connection, any empathy. It is locked completely within itself. Any social interaction is then necessarily superficial, and eventually, perhaps even naturally, becomes manipulative.

Conscience develops in a normal mind through identification, when the developing mind sees itself more and more reflected in others. This process is missing in a psychopathic mind.

Yes, something like that, I'm thinking. The Jodi's of the world entirely lack the feelings package that goes along with conscience, feelings like remorse, guilt, regret. They have in abundance the feelings package that is about being offended, being self-centered, wanting to get one's way, worry about whether they look good.

 

[TrialWatcher]

The isolation I'm referring to is not socially mediated, however early in development. It's more like a physical dislocation of the mind, a genetic gap or barrier that isolates it at a very, very deep level from the very beginning.

I enjoyed the article you linked and points put forward. It interests me that research has shown that psychopaths are cable of feeling empathy - or turning on an empathy switch. What appears significant is the ability to disconnect emotionally from even the most hideous of crimes. Arias is a psychopath in my opinion, not a sociopath. Her behaviour on the stand and the disassociation from slaughtering a man (physically and emotionally) showed the cold, goal-orientated behaviour of a psychopath. There is a loose categorisation - sociopaths are nurtured - psychopaths result from nature. Arias is a freak of nature, not nurture, imo.

 

[Steve44]

I don't want to contradict your theory, I'm sure it quite depends on the individual psychopath, I'm pretty certain I've read about drug addicts damaging the mind of their young well enough and the such.. however, there are psychopathic minds that do quite well socially, they are conditioned/nurtured from birth - if they have been conditioned to bond properly, (and I wonder if that has much to do with how the mind is still in growth stage, hence why they state it is too early for anyone to determine a 'psychopathic child,' genes even evolve, etc etc).

It's just a theory, I'm just assuming there's a strong genetic component to it because it seems to exist at such a deep level. I could be wrong, and I believe that environment does have a role to play regarding its level of expression.

 

[Steve44]

I don't want to contradict your theory, I'm sure it quite depends on the individual psychopath, I'm pretty certain I've read about drug addicts damaging the mind of their young well enough and the such.. however, there are psychopathic minds that do quite well socially, they are conditioned/nurtured from birth - if they have been conditioned to bond properly, (and I wonder if that has much to do with how the mind is still in growth stage, hence why they state it is too early for anyone to determine a 'psychopathic child,' genes even evolve, etc etc).

Yea I'm not claiming to be any kind of authority. I have minimal psych training. This is all just my speculations. I find it hard to believe though that Jodi's early environment in particular was so horrific as to turn a healthy mind psychopathic. The genetic theory just makes much more sense to me.

 

[Hope4More]

Court of Appeals update.


Appellant motion requesting management conferences was denied on May 17.

May 19. Appellant attorneys filed motion to extend the due date for opening briefs, and gave notice they want to "supplement the (trial) record."

Her attorneys are allowed one (fairly) automatic 30 day extension of the deadline for briefs.

Not sure if the clock resets from the current date (which would make new deadline July 27), or from the date the motion is granted (hasn't been recorded yet).

The supplementing the record request. (Edited).

Reread what I posted about this a few days ago. Her attorneys had 30 days after the completion of the trial record to request to supplement (as opposed to additions) to the record.

My first assumption was these supplements would involve transcriptions, likely further delaying the filing date for briefs. But, dunno. Maybe LinTx does?

 

[Hope4More]

A not-appeals, purely mischievous and irrelevant as all-get out update. My attention has been largely elsewhere for the past little while, but someone pointed me towards this glob of mess, and I'll park it here for y'all.


Looks like the hasn't been able to resist creating drama, even in max custody. Who she seems to have chosen to make enemies with is the child -killer on death row, and the child-killer seems to have chosen likewise.

What a spectacle. Two malevolent murderers, competing with one another to bring in the most donations to help their fellow inmates, lol. The with her "bookdrive" to build a better library (she who once set a goal for herself of reading 4-5 books a year, iirc), and the child-killer with HER book and educational materials drive so she has materials to tutor inmates reading at the 2nd and 3rd grade level.

Or so go their stories. The who wants all the books sent directly to her, and the child killer on DR who has said before she isn't allowed direct contact with other inmates.

The relying on the truly twisted folks at JAII to spread the good word about her book drive (and to go after the child -killer), the child-killer relying upon a single blog writing, murder-groupie to spread the good word about her charitable impulses (and to go after the , though her blogging groupie censored most of the killer's revelations about the killer).

And to think this is the whole of the 's reality.

 

[Steve44]

A not-appeals, purely mischievous and irrelevant as all-get out update. My attention has been largely elsewhere for the past little while, but someone pointed me towards this glob of mess, and I'll park it here for y'all.


Looks like the hasn't been able to resist creating drama, even in max custody. Who she seems to have chosen to make enemies with is the child -killer on death row, and the child-killer seems to have chosen likewise.

What a spectacle. Two malevolent murderers, competing with one another to bring in the most donations to help their fellow inmates, lol. The with her "bookdrive" to build a better library (she who once set a goal for herself of reading 4-5 books a year, iirc), and the child-killer with HER book and educational materials drive so she has materials to tutor inmates reading at the 2nd and 3rd grade level.

Or so go their stories. The who wants all the books sent directly to her, and the child killer on DR who has said before she isn't allowed direct contact with other inmates.

The relying on the truly twisted folks at JAII to spread the good word about her book drive (and to go after the child -killer), the child-killer relying upon a single blog writing, murder-groupie to spread the good word about her charitable impulses (and to go after the , though her blogging groupie censored most of the killer's revelations about the killer).

And to think this is the whole of the 's reality.

Such drama is inevitable.

I suppose that many, myself included, held the erroneous notion that Arias would use some of her time in prison on self-reflection, cloistered as she is from the distractions of the outside world and with the consequences of her actions flooding in from every angle.

But self-reflection requires self-criticism, and self-criticism requires a mind which can hold an image other than, yet greater than, itself, as a goal to move toward. I've already stated elsewhere why this is likely a practical impossibility for Arias.

The opposite of self-criticism is self-assertion. A prison is a sort of anti-monastery. There are many physical parallels, but instead of a self-chosen code of conduct, there is imposed discipline from the outside, instead of voluntary participation with a view towards self-improvement there is forced participation as a result of bad behavior, with a population even less inclined to self-reflection than the general.

This is an environment where the clash of egos is the order of the day, and the need for self-improvement is replaced with the need for self-assertion. Instead of the common goal of the subjugation of the ego, there are myriad individual egos seeking the subjugation of others.

 

[salberg7]

Thanks for the appeal updates, H4M. All the legal-ese confuses me. What more could possibly be added as a supplement? New evidence is not allowed.
Very interesting conversation about the killer's psychopathy. I too think she is a psychopath vs a sociopath.
Self reflection? As Steve said, she is incapable of it for reasons he so eloquently stated.
JA and the child killer are reduced to junior high school games of who can out do the other for attention and to keep relevant. Both of them deserve each other. Book drives- give me a break!

 

[Hope4More]

Such drama is inevitable.

I suppose that many, myself included, held the erroneous notion that Arias would use some of her time in prison on self-reflection, cloistered as she is from the distractions of the outside world and with the consequences of her actions flooding in from every angle.

But self-reflection requires self-criticism, and self-criticism requires a mind which can hold an image other than, yet greater than, itself, as a goal to move toward. I've already stated elsewhere why this is likely a practical impossibility for Arias.

The opposite of self-criticism is self-assertion. A prison is a sort of anti-monastery. There are many physical parallels, but instead of a self-chosen code of conduct, there is imposed discipline from the outside, instead of voluntary participation with a view towards self-improvement there is forced participation as a result of bad behavior, with a population even less inclined to self-reflection than the general.

This is an environment where the clash of egos is the order of the day, and the need for self-improvement is replaced with the need for self-assertion. Instead of the common goal of the subjugation of the ego, there are myriad individual egos seeking the subjugation of others.

You're a good egg, Steve. Myself, I never harbored any illusions that the will ever reflect on anything other than what she needs to do next in order to secure whatever it is she wants or needs.

She's a predator, so she needs prey, she feeds on conflict and drama, so I've never doubted she'd create the kind of conflict she feels confident she can control and win.

If I had to guess, I'd guess she took on the child-killer becauze it pissed her off the child -killer had blabbed unflattering blabs about the via her murder groupie, and because the is using her advantage of greater mobility against the DR'ed child -killer.

Meh. And whatever.

Truth be told what struck me was simply the absurdity of the optics and the depth of the delusions-- two vicious murderers in whatever internal power struggle, each trying to project themselves as philanthropists to the outside world in order to secure donations to advance their own interests and to best the other.

I guess we have SM to thank for this theater of the absurd.