Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

[Steve44]

It surely did take an overly long time to wrangle that into a cage for life.

I haven't and won't change my mind about JSS, though I never agreed with those who thought she was pro-defense, though she did for a fact continually allow them exceptional latitude. And more.

Remember when everyone was guessing who the "secret" witness could be? And AZLawyer saying she was sure it couldn't be the , because no competent judge would trash the Constitution and AZ state law just to give the a private stage for her drama & lies? I even remember AZL saying that if JSS had indeed allowed the to testify in secret, AZL would be dismayed enough to, iirc, run for JSS's position next election, to get her off the bench. . (Hope AZL meant that. )

JSS was in over her head, IMO. Overwhelmed by all the media, receptive to the DT's manipulation about media and more because she wanted a clean verdict and sentence but was overly cautious, overly concerned with being "liked" by both counsel, and uncertain of herself. The DT bullied her backwards, step by step, until she was lost in the weeds. jmo.

But, I doubt the appeal being considered "complex" has much to do with the process being complex. Don't think the legal issues her attorneys are likely to raise will be complex either.

My guess is the COA's designation of complex is an acknowledgement of a voluminous trial record created by an absurdly long trial, and stuffed with Nurmi's innumerable objections for the record.

I think a history in juvenile court, and the fact it was her first DP case meant that it was bound to be a learning process for her, but I don't think she anticipated how challenging those lessons would be.

The fact that she 'overruled' the Constitution leaves no doubt that she had become confused and overwhelmed. Still, she erred on the side of caution with a view to preventing successful appeal, and I think in that she was wise.

I think she did her best to appear unbiased, and did so fairly well, in spite of knowing she had to give the defense wide latitude. Her confusion was in the matter of how wide, and that is where she erred.

However, her satisfying emphasis on the consonants when she pronounced the word 'sentence' on the day of, was revelatory, either of relief at being at the end of such a long process, or her sentiments towards the killer, or both.

As far as the COA ruling, isn't a voluminous record by necessity complex, since all twists and turns must be explored? This is not to say there is anything substantive to be found, just that the process must be followed and is by definition not clear at a glance.

I suppose the appeal attorneys are required to try to exploit the murky obscurity which was the defenses strategy, and to see if any of it will stand on appeal even though it fell at trial, and that the COA has to give them their chance, but the appeals process is about bringing clarity to where it was lacking, so it will be a process made as long as possible but ending up exactly where it started. isn't going anywhere.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I haven't and won't change my mind about JSS, though I never agreed with those who thought she was pro-defense, though she did for a fact continually allow them exceptional latitude. And more.

I share this view on JSS. Yet at a few points, I lost patience with her and felt very frustrated for the families. I never thought she was pro-defence. Her body language (as much as she tried to control it) indicated to me that she liked Juan Martinez. I saw nothing but professionalism toward Arias and the Defence Team. I was also aware - who could like Arias? Even Nurmi obviously couldn't stand her.

JSS, I liked very much. In many ways, she was outstandingly patient. I was far more irritated by the judge in the Casey Anthony case. I do think she played it safe to the point where it made many people very frustrated by the justice system. Yet I left respecting the judge. Watching her listen to Arias as she described her 'sudden recall' of slitting Travis' throat, my admiration shot up. Nothing would have prevented me getting up and slapping Arias hard, had I been in that seat. My hope through the trial was that JSS patience would pay off and no appeal would have a chance of success.

 

[TexMex]

The fact that Judge Stephens had people here calling for her to be removed while at the same time people at JAII petitioning for her to be removed tells me she was doing her job.
Was it a perfect job? No. Could things have moved more quickly, fewer sidebars? Yes
But it wasn't an easy job either. I'm thankful, as was the Alexander family, for her toughing it out and hopefully preserving a record that will stand up in the appeals process.

 

[Steve44]

I share this view on JSS. Yet at a few points, I lost patience with her and felt very frustrated for the families. I never thought she was pro-defence. Her body language (as much as she tried to control it) indicated to me that she liked Juan Martinez. I saw nothing but professionalism toward Arias and the Defence Team. I was also aware - who could like Arias? Even Nurmi obviously couldn't stand her.

JSS, I liked very much. In many ways, she was outstandingly patient. I was far more irritated by the judge in the Casey Anthony case. I do think she played it safe to the point where it made many people very frustrated by the justice system. Yet I left respecting the judge. Watching her listen to Arias as she described her 'sudden recall' of slitting Travis' throat, my admiration shot up. Nothing would have prevented me getting up and slapping Arias hard, had I been in that seat. My hope through the trial was that JSS patience would pay off and no appeal would have a chance of success.

I don't think Hope's opinion of JSS is complimentary. Although not pro-defense, I think she feels she was simply incompetent, and that if she had followed the law as closely as it was her duty to do, and had the surety in same which her position required, the trial would have moved a lot faster. Please correct me if I'm wrong Hope.

I agree in the strictest sense of the term, but I also feel that since it was her first DP case some of her errors can be overlooked or at least understood with a degree of sympathy, particularly since they did no real damage to justice being served, although the long delays did prolong the pain of the victim family members in a very real way.

 

[Hope4More]

I don't think Hope's opinion of JSS is complimentary. Although not pro-defense, I think she feels she was simply incompetent, and that if she had followed the law as closely as it was her duty to do, and had the surety in same which her position required, the trial would have moved a lot faster. Please correct me if I'm wrong Hope.

I agree in the strictest sense of the term, but I also feel that since it was her first DP case some of her errors can be overlooked or at least understood with a degree of sympathy, particularly since they did no real damage to justice being served, although the long delays did prolong the pain of the victim family members in a very real way.

I think the "only" legal error JSS ever made was when she lost her way altogether, and in violation of both the US Constitution and AZ state law, kicked the media out to allow the 's secret testimony.

IMO it was a gigantic, very significant and very consequential error in law and in judgement. The trial had been on course up to then. It went off the rails after that, and IMO, stayed off the rails in terms of the degree to which she accommodated the DT's ever more brazen requests, right on through the end of PP2.

Conceding to DT demands to permit loathsome lying testimony by the nameless, in affidavits read by hired guns, allowing even experts to testify under assumed names, all in response to the DT's patently ridiculous assertion that witnesses were too afraid to testify openly in court or to be named. JSS had no reason whatsoever to fear that any of the DT's objections relating to media would be upheld on appeal. One twinge of caution followed by another ultimately led her to full capitulation, IMO.

Was she incompetent? No, I don't think that's the appropriate word. But I think her lack of confidence and skill caused a great many innocent people a great deal of suffering, not least the Alexanders, but also, for example, Detective Esteban Flores, when in another lapse of judgement, this one I won't forgive, she allowed the DT to gratuitously drag his name through the mud with those outrageous accusations that he had snuck late at night into the LE's evidence room to view *advertiser censored* on TA's computer.

Did her "caution" result in a verdict and sentence that almost certainly will withstand appeals? My answer to that IMO any competent and more experienced judge could have produced the same result in a much shorter time, with less collateral damage, and with a great deal more decorum and respect evident in the courtroom.

 

[Hope4More]

I think a history in juvenile court, and the fact it was her first DP case meant that it was bound to be a learning process for her, but I don't think she anticipated how challenging those lessons would be.

The fact that she 'overruled' the Constitution leaves no doubt that she had become confused and overwhelmed. Still, she erred on the side of caution with a view to preventing successful appeal, and I think in that she was wise.

I think she did her best to appear unbiased, and did so fairly well, in spite of knowing she had to give the defense wide latitude. Her confusion was in the matter of how wide, and that is where she erred.

However, her satisfying emphasis on the consonants when she pronounced the word 'sentence' on the day of, was revelatory, either of relief at being at the end of such a long process, or her sentiments towards the killer, or both.

As far as the COA ruling, isn't a voluminous record by necessity complex, since all twists and turns must be explored? This is not to say there is anything substantive to be found, just that the process must be followed and is by definition not clear at a glance.

I suppose the appeal attorneys are required to try to exploit the murky obscurity which was the defenses strategy, and to see if any of it will stand on appeal even though it fell at trial, and that the COA has to give them their chance, but the appeals process is about bringing clarity to where it was lacking, so it will be a process made as long as possible but ending up exactly where it started. isn't going anywhere.

COA appeal briefs and arguments aren't about recapitulating the twists and turns of a trial, and have nothing at all to do with analysis or evaluation of the DT's defense strategies as such.

Attorneys are given an inflexible page limit (40 pages, iirc) for the entire brief.
There are 2 core parts of a brief. One part lays out a straightforward chronological and factual narrative of context for murder, then of the murder itself, then on through the charges, the trial (no extended discussion of evidence, etc.), on through the verdict.

The essence of her appeal will be the section in which her attorneys lay out, one by one, with citations, what they will argue are reversable LEGAL errors by JSS and by JM.

No twists and turns there, though I wouldn't be surprised in the least if her attorneys' arguments require lots of mental gymnastics and some suspended disbelief to wade through.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I don't think Hope's opinion of JSS is complimentary. Although not pro-defense, I think she feels she was simply incompetent, and that if she had followed the law as closely as it was her duty to do, and had the surety in same which her position required, the trial would have moved a lot faster. Please correct me if I'm wrong Hope.

I agree in the strictest sense of the term, but I also feel that since it was her first DP case some of her errors can be overlooked or at least understood with a degree of sympathy, particularly since they did no real damage to justice being served, although the long delays did prolong the pain of the victim family members in a very real way.

BBM

Which is why I selected the one point of Hope's I agreed with from the post.

The judge was not pro-defence. The rest is my opinion on JSS. The family appear to have appreciated JSS's efforts although I agree the delays were torturous and the whole thing drawn out by defence.

 

[TrialWatcher]

The fact that Judge Stephens had people here calling for her to be removed while at the same time people at JAII petitioning for her to be removed tells me she was doing her job.
Was it a perfect job? No. Could things have moved more quickly, fewer sidebars? Yes
But it wasn't an easy job either. I'm thankful, as was the Alexander family, for her toughing it out and hopefully preserving a record that will stand up in the appeals process.

For me, the Alexander family's opinion of Judge Sherry Stephens is very important. They seem to have a respect and regard for JSS's efforts. Juan Martinez does too. My hope is that the time spent on the trial will make successful appeals very difficult indeed.

We have to wait even more for that to be determined. :gaah:

 

[Niner]

fftopic:

TexMex - hoping you aren't in that "flood" area in Texas!!! YIKES!!!

 

[Hope4More]

For me, the Alexander family's opinion of Judge Sherry Stephens is very important. They seem to have a respect and regard for JSS's efforts. Juan Martinez does too. My hope is that the time spent on the trial will make successful appeals very difficult indeed.

We have to wait even more for that to be determined. :gaah:

I don't remember the Alexanders ever mentioning JSS. I'd be willing to bet they don't have much good to say about her, actually. Samantha has hinted at that more than once, even saying directly to JSS she thinks the system disproportionately favors defendants over victims.

JM is a still-practicing attorney who doesn't seem especially interested in committing career-suicide. Whatever his opinion of JSS is, he's never going to be so foolish as to openly criticize a sitting Superior Court judge.


I'm confident the 's appeal will be denied, but don't think JSS had much to do with that. JM deserves the most credit, IMO, not just for the strength of his case, but for the enormous restraint and caution he exercised in prosecuting that case, from choices about what evidence to introduce on through.

As he said in his book (and in interviews), his goal was not just to get the convinction, but to get a rock solid conviction that wouldn't be overturned on appeal.

And though I detest the man Nurmi has revealed himself to be, Nurmi defended the so vigorously he also helped ensure his client will be caged for life.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I don't remember the Alexanders ever mentioning JSS. I'd be willing to bet they don't have much good to say about her, actually. Samantha has hinted at that more than once, even saying directly to JSS she thinks the system disproportionately favors defendants over victims.

JM is a still-practicing attorney who doesn't seem especially interested in committing career-suicide. Whatever his opinion of JSS is, he's never going to be so foolish as to openly criticize a sitting Superior Court judge.


I'm confident the 's appeal will be denied, but don't think JSS had much to do with that. JM deserves the most credit, IMO, not just for the strength of his case, but for the enormous restraint and caution he exercised in prosecuting that case, from choices about what evidence to introduce on through.

As he said in his book (and in interviews), his goal was not just to get the convinction, but to get a rock solid conviction that wouldn't be overturned on appeal.

And though I detest the man Nurmi has revealed himself to be, Nurmi defended the so vigorously he also helped ensure his client will be caged for life.

Hope4More: "I don't remember the Alexanders ever mentioning JSS. I'd be willing to bet they don't have much good to say about her, actually. Samantha has hinted at that more than once, even saying directly to JSS she thinks the system disproportionately favors defendants over victims."

This is one example I remember very clearly. The appreciation of Judge Sherry Stephen's efforts could not have been expressed more openly or on a more appropriate global stage:

[video=youtube;wWXdKIwkJ7Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWXdKIwkJ7Q&list=PLwxYl_sbb8Iz6yEqNE5gglA3Pf2SdSgwv&index=88[/video]

Samantha to Judge Sherry Stephens before sentencing above. From 31 minutes in.

"With that being said, I understand the decisions you made in this trial. I understand why you allowed the delays by the defence. I have seen the public backlash because of it. I am so sorry that you had to go through this experience - not only once but twice"

Samantha continues - expressing a sincere and touching appreciation of JSS

"In closing, I just want to express my appreciation to you. I know this trial has impacted your life. There is only one person who is to blame for that - and that is Jodi. I thank you, Judge Stephens for being strong enough to see this trial to the end..."

My impression of what the family think of Judge Sherry Stephens is based on what they have said. Samantha criticised the process, the pain the legal procedures and delays caused by the system caused the family. The video I have posted shows a robust appreciation by Travis' family of Judge Stephens. In addition, if you watch the interaction between JSS and other family members giving statements, there is something very moving and real about it.

As for Juan Martinez - he is a professional, of course. I seem to recall him expressing his appreciation of the efforts of JSS from interviews and will post later, if my memory is correct.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I don't understand why it's so difficult to believe she was on her way to do the exact same thing she'd just done. When deciding to kill Travis, she rented a car, she packed a knife and a gun, some luggage, and off she went.
So she accomplishes her murder, returns home, waits a bit; rents a car, packs a knife and a gun, some luggage, and was ready to go.

Don't know about anyone else, but when I go camping, or on a trip, I don't feel the need to stash knives and a gun in my car.

I was just listening to Juan speak on the subject of the final rental car, the knives and the gun. He stresses the colour of the rental - white - was the same as the one she used to kill Travis. Hearing Juan's tone is interesting. It is speculation, of course, nothing provable but Juan stresses the similarities:

[video=youtube;WcF5PpoqsfY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcF5PpoqsfY[/video]

From approximately 17 minutes in.

I agree that it's not at all difficult to believe she had further murderous intentions. It's not provable but it's interesting speculation.

 

[TexMex]

Hope4More: "I don't remember the Alexanders ever mentioning JSS. I'd be willing to bet they don't have much good to say about her, actually. Samantha has hinted at that more than once, even saying directly to JSS she thinks the system disproportionately favors defendants over victims."

This is one example I remember very clearly. The appreciation of Judge Sherry Stephen's efforts could not have been expressed more openly or on a more appropriate global stage:

[video=youtube;wWXdKIwkJ7Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWXdKIwkJ7Q&list=PLwxYl_sbb8Iz6yEqNE5gglA3Pf2SdSgwv&index=88[/video]

Samantha to Judge Sherry Stephens before sentencing above. From 31 minutes in.

"With that being said, I understand the decisions you made in this trial. I understand why you allowed the delays by the defence. I have seen the public backlash because of it. I am so sorry that you had to go through this experience - not only once but twice"

Samantha continues - expressing a sincere and touching appreciation of JSS

"In closing, I just want to express my appreciation to you. I know this trial has impacted your life. There is only one person who is to blame for that - and that is Jodi. I thank you, Judge Stephens for being strong enough to see this trial to the end..."

My impression of what the family think of Judge Sherry Stephens is based on what they have said. Samantha criticised the process, the pain the legal procedures and delays caused by the system caused the family. The video I have posted shows a robust appreciation by Travis' family of Judge Stephens. In addition, if you watch the interaction between JSS and other family members giving statements, there is something very moving and real about it.

As for Juan Martinez - he is a professional, of course. I seem to recall him expressing his appreciation of the efforts of JSS from interviews and will post later, if my memory is correct.

Exactly. The Judge did her job. She managed to get this trial to verdict despite delays caused by Jodi: switching lawyers, changing defense from "ninjas" to self defense...to Nurmi trying to quit every six weeks, a hung penalty phase then a retrial...all while being criticized by pundits, defense supporters and prosecution supporters. I appreciated Samantha being gracious and extending thanks from the family for Judge Stephens for hanging in there despite the length and personal hardship. Stephens shepherded this thing to a fair verdict and then put the guilty party in a cage for life with no possibility of parole.

 

[salberg7]

I was also pleased that Nurmi got his two cents on the record at the end of the sentencing hearing when he asked to be allowed to withdraw because the killer had chosen to be noncommunicative with him for the prior few months. That statement helped to seal the deal about any complaints of ineffective counsel on his part by documenting that the killer chose not to speak to him nor follow any suggestions he may have had regarding strategy.
While I'll admit I am disappointed the killer was given more time to submit supplements to the trial record, I know appeals take years to be decided and would have been very surprised if original deadlines were adhered to. I can wait until 2017.
Maybe the "supplements" have something to do with the AG investigation that we haven't heard anything about. For all we know, the killer can be citing MDLR's apparent inability to present any mitigating witnesses nor factors other than what JW & KN offered. I wouldn't be surprised if the killer tries to burn MDLR either by stating she didn't do her job. JA is a slime ball and will throw anyone under the bus, as we've already seen.

 

[TrialWatcher]

http://www.yidio.com/show/dr-phil-show/season-13/episode-81/4745320228

This clip by a juror from the second trial shows

"I truly believe that if Jodi didn't get caught or if she was ever released - she would do it again".

Couldn't agree more.

 

[TrialWatcher]

[video=youtube;tKNt2N4Fzyc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKNt2N4Fzyc[/video]

Juan Martinez:

"I don't believe there was any error that was committed - whether it was by the prosecution, the defence or the judge"

From 23 minutes in.

Positive comments also about the judge:

"It takes temperament to be a judge".

My impression was that Juan liked Judge Sherry Stephens and the judge liked him.

 

[Hope4More]

Hope4More: "I don't remember the Alexanders ever mentioning JSS. I'd be willing to bet they don't have much good to say about her, actually. Samantha has hinted at that more than once, even saying directly to JSS she thinks the system disproportionately favors defendants over victims."

This is one example I remember very clearly. The appreciation of Judge Sherry Stephen's efforts could not have been expressed more openly or on a more appropriate global stage:

[video=youtube;wWXdKIwkJ7Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWXdKIwkJ7Q&list=PLwxYl_sbb8Iz6yEqNE5gglA3Pf2SdSgwv&index=88[/video]

Samantha to Judge Sherry Stephens before sentencing above. From 31 minutes in.

"With that being said, I understand the decisions you made in this trial. I understand why you allowed the delays by the defence. I have seen the public backlash because of it. I am so sorry that you had to go through this experience - not only once but twice"

Samantha continues - expressing a sincere and touching appreciation of JSS

"In closing, I just want to express my appreciation to you. I know this trial has impacted your life. There is only one person who is to blame for that - and that is Jodi. I thank you, Judge Stephens for being strong enough to see this trial to the end..."

My impression of what the family think of Judge Sherry Stephens is based on what they have said. Samantha criticised the process, the pain the legal procedures and delays caused by the system caused the family. The video I have posted shows a robust appreciation by Travis' family of Judge Stephens. In addition, if you watch the interaction between JSS and other family members giving statements, there is something very moving and real about it.

As for Juan Martinez - he is a professional, of course. I seem to recall him expressing his appreciation of the efforts of JSS from interviews and will post later, if my memory is correct.

Yes, I remember Samantha saying this....after she first expressed her anger, which given that she was there to plead with JSS to give the natural life was really quite remarkable. IMO.

I was referring to outside the courtroom, in a context where Samantha could speak freely. Tanisha has spoken most frequently post-trial, but I don't remember her bringing up JSS one way or another.

In any case, my opinion about JSS isn't contingent upon what the Alexanders thought of her. They're the family of a victim, experienced the trial from that unique POV, and other than jurors, paid the steepest price emotionally for the trial unnecessarily dragging on and on for so many months. I'm a trial watcher and an attorney's wife, and neither one of us had ever seen a judge exercise so little control over her courtroom. I lost count of the times JM actually instructed her on the law. :O

 

[Hope4More]

Exactly. The Judge did her job. She managed to get this trial to verdict despite delays caused by Jodi: switching lawyers, changing defense from "ninjas" to self defense...to Nurmi trying to quit every six weeks, a hung penalty phase then a retrial...all while being criticized by pundits, defense supporters and prosecution supporters. I appreciated Samantha being gracious and extending thanks from the family for Judge Stephens for hanging in there despite the length and personal hardship. Stephens shepherded this thing to a fair verdict and then put the guilty party in a cage for life with no possibility of parole.

I'm sure JSS would appreciate your support. . Personally, if I lived in Maricopa County, AZ, I would definitely vote her off the bench, especially if AZL actually ran.

 

[TexMex]

Yes, I remember Samantha saying this....after she first expressed her anger, which given that she was there to plead with JSS to give the natural life was really quite remarkable. IMO.

I was referring to outside the courtroom, in a context where Samantha could speak freely. Tanisha has spoken most frequently post-trial, but I don't remember her bringing up JSS one way or another.

In any case, my opinion about JSS isn't contingent upon what the Alexanders thought of her. They're the family of a victim, experienced the trial from that unique POV, and other than jurors, paid the steepest price emotionally for the trial unnecessarily dragging on and on for so many months. I'm a trial watcher and an attorney's wife, and neither one of us had ever seen a judge exercise so little control over her courtroom. I lost count of the times JM actually instructed her on the law. :O

IMO it's unfair to say Samantha wasn't "speaking freely". Jmo but she was absolutely speaking her mind both times she spoke so eloquently in the courtroom. She's a bright, well spoken lady. She clearly said she understood all of the delays and decisions Judge Stephens made during the trial. She furthermore put the blame squarely on Jodi, not the judge. She then expressly thanked and expressed appreciation to the judge. This trial had an impact on all parties, not just her family and Samantha realized the judges hard work and the strength it took to keep things on track, putting the vicious Jodi in prison for life.

 

[TrialWatcher]

.

I was referring to outside the courtroom, in a context where Samantha could speak freely. Tanisha has spoken most frequently post-trial, but I don't remember her bringing up JSS one way or another. You specifically mentioned Samantha as being critical of

I based my reply on:

Hope4More: "I don't remember the Alexanders ever mentioning JSS. [...]"

You didn't qualify your statement as applying only outside the courtroom. What was said on a global stage with worldwide media attention was significant given how little they have said. I agree with TexMex regarding how gracious the thanks offered to JSS was. The opinion of Travis' family is information for me in assessing JSS. You recalled the criticism of JSS in the post I had replied to but not the praise and thanks. You bet that the family had nothing good to say about JSS. Is there a source you base this on? Something the family have said to counter the words in court?