Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

[RickshawFan]

What do you think? (rough draft)


-Drag, coup de grace, shove into the shower - at least 10 minutes, maybe 15 min. Travis was heavy, small shower stall to manuever
-Wash him and herself - 5 min
-Wipe walls - 2 min
-Glance and delete photos - 3 min
-Gather up clothes and towels - 2 min
-Go downstairs and start the washer - 3 min
-Wash hands, put on bandaid - 3 min
-Take bloody clothes off, get dressed - 3 min
-Pack up knife, gun, her stuff - 3 min
-Wipe down bannisters - 2 min
- Put up doggie gates - 2 min

Total: 38-43 min
Please add anything missing, subtract, or revise.

I'm thinking the first item took only about 4 minutes: adrenaline and all. She had to have been surging with rage, and she seemed to have gone through all the slaughter stages very quickly.

I'm thinking she had to have been doing a bunch of this with no clothes on.

Earlier, there was a place in the transcript where she seemed worried that she might have left clothes in TA's closet? It might have been a ball of socks or her thongs. In her haste, she might not have found them when she changed clothes and couldn't be certain if they were in the clean clothes pile when she put it in the closet or maybe she'd left them in the car. Anyway, she couldn't account for them.

 

[RickshawFan]

I believe she thought through beforehand what she had to do to exit quickly, and did some groundwork before she killed him...maybe slipping that check into his drawer, hiding clothes on that closet top shelf where she says she reached for a gun, even bringing his wallet upstairs into the closet to save time afterwards.

As part of that efficiency, she may well have offered to help out with the cleaning he seems to have been doing, by putting his bedding in the wash, then the drier, perhaps as she watched him begin to use that tile cleaner.

One of the most mysterious things to me about that day is where TA and the were in the hour or so during the time Zach returned, that he didn't hear or see either of them. Made more sense when I thought the timestamps were off.

Are we sure the bannisters were slick when Zach returned home at 3? Enrique mentioned that, but he didn't return until hours later.

I'm thinking the person upthread who said TA wanted to have every speck of out of his house had it right. He did the wash and whatever else after he thought she'd left. He was busy scrubbing her out of existence. His sense of urgency about doing this must have pissed her off big time. He was so urgent about cleaning up, that he didn't make himself busy with work, phone calls, emails, etc.

I think she'd left, got herself a strawberry frappucino, rehearsed the way she thought it would go finalized her getaway route, stoked her rage, and returned to TA's intensely focused.

She could have stolen his camera and brought it back with her for the murder?

She can't have known he'd be in the shower when she wanted him to be. She can't have been able to plan for this aspect.

She practiced using his new camera and deleting photos during the sex scenes. For her, the photo taking was just as important as the sex. She didn't care what the quality was.

Although she said they'd taken a lot of photos before (on her camera, conveniently), where's the evidence? When EF said sex photos had been found, she knew they had to have been that day because that was the only time they took sex photos? That might account for early discrepancies in her story...

If she hadn't murdered TA in the shower, what were her other scenarios? Seems to me, she had to trust so much to chance to pull off the shower scenario.

The day of the murder may have been the only time they took sex photos.

 

[RickshawFan]

I recall JA boasting at some point that she'd forgotten about a domain she had, though for someone so broke that she was counting pennies to buy gas one wonders how she was able to afford any, let alone forget one.

She might have had one for her blog. The first year you have it, it costs hardly anything. On the other hand, she probably borrowed that boast from TA. He had a website and may have had other domains before she knew him that he suddenly remembered.

 

[Hope4More]

What stuck out for me in your posting of all her blather was:
--------
"JA: One was black, I think they were both black or dark blue or something. It was…. Anyway, umm it wasn’t until I was in LA and Laura wasn’t getting back to me, and it was already like 9 something……."
--------
Wasn't the trip to see Laura in LA the day before she murdered TA?

It was.

Flores had signalled he was running out of patience. The realized he could prove she was there. She launched into the ninja story but stalled mid-thought, imo because she knew she needed her ninja embellishments to fit the forensics, and was still trying to work through what she knew, what she thought she knew, and what she couldn't be sure of.

 

[Hope4More]

TA's crooked license plate (from JM's book).

 

[Hope4More]

Relating to her ninja story. She said the male ninja made her kneel in TA's bedroom in front of an armoire. She chose that spot, most likely, because the hallway to the bathroom could be seen from there.

(Photo from JM's book).

 

[Hope4More]

I'm thinking the person upthread who said TA wanted to have every speck of out of his house had it right. He did the wash and whatever else after he thought she'd left. He was busy scrubbing her out of existence. His sense of urgency about doing this must have pissed her off big time. He was so urgent about cleaning up, that he didn't make himself busy with work, phone calls, emails, etc.

I think she'd left, got herself a strawberry frappucino, rehearsed the way she thought it would go finalized her getaway route, stoked her rage, and returned to TA's intensely focused.

She could have stolen his camera and brought it back with her for the murder?

She can't have known he'd be in the shower when she wanted him to be. She can't have been able to plan for this aspect.

She practiced using his new camera and deleting photos during the sex scenes. For her, the photo taking was just as important as the sex. She didn't care what the quality was.

Although she said they'd taken a lot of photos before (on her camera, conveniently), where's the evidence? When EF said sex photos had been found, she knew they had to have been that day because that was the only time they took sex photos? That might account for early discrepancies in her story...

If she hadn't murdered TA in the shower, what were her other scenarios? Seems to me, she had to trust so much to chance to pull off the shower scenario.

The day of the murder may have been the only time they took sex photos.

I think she was confident about her shower plan because she knew Travis well enough to know he would definitely take a shower that day (unlike her, he showered daily).

For the sake of the argument (and leaving aside any and all arguments about yes or no sex that day ), let's say they did have a sexual encounter of whatever sort, and at the time indicated on the photos.

I'm guessing that Travis typically would have taken a shower right afterwards, and that she anticipated he would that day. But he didn't, and he didn't for hours afterwards, which is kind of curious in any case, and maybe a problem for her, as it meant risking roomies returning (as one did), and further delay in reaching SLC.

Maybe it was because of TA's seeming hesitation to shower while she was there that she thought up the idea of flattering him about the work he'd done on his body, and of taking photos in the shower.

 

[Hope4More]

Pocket......here's my initial guess at times, using yours as a framework.


1. Drag, coup de grace, shove into the shower - (less than 10 minutes, and as few as five. She would have been high on adrenaline at that point, IMO).

2. Walk back the hallway, retrieve camera, remove any evidence off the tiled floor (items knocked down or kicked on the floor during the struggle), wipe walls. (2-3 min).


3. Glance and delete photos - 2-3 min

4. Strip, wrap up her clothes, the weapons, the camera, and TA' clothes into a bath towel. - 3 min

5. Pour water on the bathroom floor to get rid of some of the blood and to alter the crime scene, mop it up (3-4 minutes)

6. Wash herself (in the shower, with TA's body there, maybe wash the weapons and or her bloody clothes too). (At least 5 minutes. Even her hair was likely soaked in blood, and she knew she couldn't leave traces of blood outside the bathroom).

7. Get dressed in TA's closet, where she left her backpack with clothes in it, no later than when she followed TA upstairs (or came up after a few minutes, when he was already in the shower, could have been then she convinced him to let her take photos). 1-2 min.

8. Go downstairs with bundle of wash, start the washer, put bleach in, put her bloody clothes and weapons into a trash bag, then into her backpack, and the rest into the washer. 3-4 min

9. Use downstairs bathroom to wash hands, put on bandaid - 2 min


10. Put on gloves, put up doggie gate, wipe down bannisters - 2 -3 min.

11. Leave

----------
Total: 32- 36, allotting for 7 minutes in shower.
-------------

We don't know exactly when Enrique arrived, but it was sometime between 6 and 6:30. The front door was locked, so he had to enter through the garage. The bannisters were already wiped down, and he would have seen her (presumably) if she was lurking in the downstairs bathroom or in the laundry room.

So.....

Either he returned closer to 6:30 than 6, OR, the exited more quickly than our timelines indicate, OR she was still in the house when he returned and exited without him hearing or seeing her (easy to do once he went upstairs, either out the garage director or out his study window), OR the timestamps are wrong.

My guess-- she was still there when he returned, and that is why she asked if the roommates had heard anything.

 

[RickshawFan]

TA's crooked license plate (from JM's book).

The bike is hanging up on the wall? Not where TA was working on it? Not in a heap?

 

[RickshawFan]

I think she was confident about her shower plan because she knew Travis well enough to know he would definitely take a shower that day (unlike her, he showered daily).

For the sake of the argument (and leaving aside any and all arguments about yes or no sex that day ), let's say they did have a sexual encounter of whatever sort, and at the time indicated on the photos.

I'm guessing that Travis typically would have taken a shower right afterwards, and that she anticipated he would that day. But he didn't, and he didn't for hours afterwards, which is kind of curious in any case, and maybe a problem for her, as it meant risking roomies returning (and one did), and further delay in reaching SLC.

Maybe it was because of TA's seeming hesitation to shower while she was there that she thought up the idea of flattering him about the work he'd done on his body, and of taking photos in the shower.

I am indeed going along with sex that day...

What I'm not going along with is that they were in the habit of taking photos. This could have been the one and only time. Ergo, if EF said he had sex photos, she knew he had them from that day and could put her in Mesa. This is what tripped her in the narrative.

 

[RickshawFan]

I think she was confident about her shower plan because she knew Travis well enough to know he would definitely take a shower that day (unlike her, he showered daily).

For the sake of the argument (and leaving aside any and all arguments about yes or no sex that day ), let's say they did have a sexual encounter of whatever sort, and at the time indicated on the photos.

I'm guessing that Travis typically would have taken a shower right afterwards, and that she anticipated he would that day. But he didn't, and he didn't for hours afterwards, which is kind of curious in any case, and maybe a problem for her, as it meant risking roomies returning (as one did), and further delay in reaching SLC.

Maybe it was because of TA's seeming hesitation to shower while she was there that she thought up the idea of flattering him about the work he'd done on his body, and of taking photos in the shower.

He might have taken 2 showers that day? To cleanse himself of her? Because he felt assaulted or coerced? To answer his shame? (Sex assault victims often shower and shower and shower...)

Were there extra towels in with the first batch of laundry?

 

[RickshawFan]

I think she was confident about her shower plan because she knew Travis well enough to know he would definitely take a shower that day (unlike her, he showered daily).

For the sake of the argument (and leaving aside any and all arguments about yes or no sex that day ), let's say they did have a sexual encounter of whatever sort, and at the time indicated on the photos.

I'm guessing that Travis typically would have taken a shower right afterwards, and that she anticipated he would that day. But he didn't, and he didn't for hours afterwards, which is kind of curious in any case, and maybe a problem for her, as it meant risking roomies returning (as one did), and further delay in reaching SLC.

Maybe it was because of TA's seeming hesitation to shower while she was there that she thought up the idea of flattering him about the work he'd done on his body, and of taking photos in the shower.

Maybe he made her leave right after the sex?

 

[Hope4More]

I am indeed going along with sex that day...

What I'm not going along with is that they were in the habit of taking photos. This could have been the one and only time. Ergo, if EF said he had sex photos, she knew he had them from that day and could put her in Mesa. This is what tripped her in the narrative.

I agree. IIRC, she had one photo of TA's man parts (wouldn't be terribly surprised if she took that photo without his permission), and he had, iirc, a photo she'd texted him of her *advertiser censored*.

The camera evidence was conclusive proof she was there on that day, and that she'd slaughtered him. She tried every which way to explain away those photos, but couldn't. Without them I doubt she'd have ever confessed to being there.

 

[RickshawFan]

I agree. IIRC, she had one photo of TA's man parts (wouldn't be terribly surprised if she took that photo without his permission), and he had, iirc, a photo she'd texted him of her *advertiser censored*.

The camera evidence was conclusive proof she was there on that day, and that she'd slaughtered him. She tried every which way to explain away those photos, but couldn't. Without them I doubt she'd have ever confessed to being there.

Yes, the photos were conclusive proof, but I was thinking back to the interrogation and how the narrative went. I'll have to look at it again to illustrate what I'm trying to say.

 

[Hope4More]

Maybe he made her leave right after the sex?

I don't think there is any way of figuring out the timeline of June 4th without having more information. Even having just the complete record of computer activity would help, but no luck there, and the computer info that is available is muddled.

Little tidbits suggest, IMO, that she may have left after 2:00pm, then returned, though that leaving might just have been to hide in his garage.

- his journal found in his car, on the floor
- the tile cleaner taken out after roommies left in the AM
- the long gap between sets of photos, especially since TA had an important conference call at 7pm, was getting ready for Cancun, and it's difficult to imagine (nope, flat out impossible) that he was receptive to just hanging out with the all day; the oddity of where his camera bag was found- in the loft near a beanbag chair, rather than in his bedroom; and not least, the fact Zach didn't see or hear either of them between 3-4.

From TA's friends' reports to Flores, it seems unlikely they were in TA's bedroom when Zach was there, unless they were whispering and barely moving that whole time (walls are extremely thin and unsoundproof), and unlikely they were together in his study, unless there too they were deliberately being silent.

Maybe she asked about roomies, he told her Zach was off work, returning a rental car and would be back, and she "left" to avoid being seen by Zach, but returned with some lame excuse like- I forgot to give you the check or CD's).

(Btw, I think it's unclear when Zach noticed the slick bannisters and tile cleaner out. Flores's report notes Zach noticed "when he returned," but he returned twice that day- at 3, then in the late evening).

 

[Niner]

Okay - here's how I'm putting this together of what really happened (all quotes from Hope4More post #1098) Just some thoughts I had! There are "some" truths about what happened...

LTF: I must have been hit on the back of the head because the next thing I knew I was lying next to the bathtub. My ears were ringing and Travis was screaming, but he sounded so far away even though he was right next to me.
M: I’m certain that I blacked out because when I came to I was lying next to the bathtub. My head was throbbing and Travis was behind me screaming. I looked over to where he was screaming and he was in the middle of the bathroom on all fours.

Did Travis "somehow" knock her on the back of the head after being shot? But personally, I think he was shot at the end of this. but anyway... Travis screaming - mentioned twice - first stab wound? And somehow he knocked her in the back of the head getting out of the shower.

M: I managed to get up and go into the closet, was greeted by the male holding a gun to my head, he forced me to kneel down in the bedroom. I looked into the bathroom and saw the female standing over him, he was silent now but still on his hands and knees.
I rushed her, pushed her, she fell over Travis and onto the floor.
------------------------------
LTF: The female was standing over Travis, male left the room, I charged the female. I shoved her hard enugh that she fell over Travis, who was conscious but quiet at this point on all fours, with his right hand holding his head. She fell near the left sink, close to the trash can.

SHE rushed Travis, and fell over him, landing near the trash can. So specific about this trash can!

LTF: I pulled on Travis, saying come on, come on. He came forward lethargically but wouldn’t stand up, and kept saying -I can’t. I only got him about half way down the hallway, he kept saying go get help, in didn’t want to leave him, I kept pleading, he said—I can’t, I can’t feel my legs.
M. I pulled on Travis, kept telling him to come on, but he wouldn’t. He kept saying-I can’t. With my help he moved a few feet, but he told me he couldn’t feel his legs, and to go to the neighbor.

I believe this is where Travis is trying to walk/crawl down the hallway, trying to get away from her, and HIM trying to get outside to a neighbor.

LTF: The girl came at me with a knife, but I was able to grab her wrists. I was already weak and could hardly breath. She tried kicking me repeartedly in the knees. I tried blocking her and holding her hands but she was making repeated attempts to stomp on my feet, landing her target a few times. It was an unfair advantage because she had shoes and I was in my bare feet.
M. At this point the woman came after me with knife . I was able to grab her wrists and somewhat thwart her attack. But I was at a considerable disadvantage. She was kicking and stomping me, and she had shoes on, and I was in my bare feet.

I believe JA had the shoes on and Travis was the bare feet... Travis trying to grab her wrists, already week and hardly breathing. Travis kicking her in the knees.

LTF: Male ninja got berated by female ninja into trying to shoot me. He tried to fire but nothing happened, just a click.
M. Female ninja insisted he kill me. He pulled the trigger but it didn’t fire

JA trying to shot him again, and the gun went click...

LTF: I ran out the front door, leaving my shoes behind. My rental car was parked in the driveway. I kept my eye on the front door as I backed out. I saw 2 little girls running west on Queensborough.
When I left Travis was alive but hurt.
M. I ran, left through the front door, fumbled into my car, and backed out of the driveway. I drove west on east Q.

Bold - wonder if these 2 little girls saw her?? And her rental was in the driveway. So going west on Queensborough - where would that take her? Hope4More?

Okay - back to reading...

 

[Hope4More]

Okay - here's how I'm putting this together of what really happened (all quotes from Hope4More post #1098) Just some thoughts I had! There are "some" truths about what happened...



Did Travis "somehow" knock her on the back of the head after being shot? But personally, I think he was shot at the end of this. but anyway... Travis screaming - mentioned twice - first stab wound? And somehow he knocked her in the back of the head getting out of the shower.



SHE rushed Travis, and fell over him, landing near the trash can. So specific about this trash can!



I believe this is where Travis is trying to walk/crawl down the hallway, trying to get away from her, and HIM trying to get outside to a neighbor.



I believe JA had the shoes on and Travis was the bare feet... Travis trying to grab her wrists, already week and hardly breathing. Travis kicking her in the knees.



JA trying to shot him again, and the gun went click...



Bold - wonder if these 2 little girls saw her?? And her rental was in the driveway. So going west on Queensborough - where would that take her? Hope4More?

Okay - back to reading...

She could have gone either way on Queensborough. West would take her back out to S. South Signal Butte, then up to 60, east would take her (more quickly, initially) out of his neighborhood, to that more deserted road I took a picture of and posted, and 2 turns would also put her on Signal Butte.

I don't believe she saw 2 little girls. Sounds more like one of her pointless embellishments....

-----------------

She says in her ninja stories that there was "blood everywhere, " yet she never saw either ninja stab Travis. Nah. There was blood everywhere because I think JM and Horn were right about the sequence of weapons.

I know nothing about guns. Is it possible she shot an unloaded gun while he was sitting in the shower? To terrorize him? And had the knife ready, so when he lunged forward, she stabbed him?

If not that scenario, I think he did lunge towards her and she stabbed him, but he didn't die immediately as she thought he would, that there was a struggle between the shower and vanities, that he managed to throw her off, that she stabbed him repeatedly in the back as he stared in shock in the mirror, that he turned and tried to block the stabs with his hands, that she kicked him in the knees and stomped on his feet during that struggle, that he was losing a tremendous amount of blood at that point and couldn't get back up after she succeeded in kicking him down, that he tried to crawl down the hall......

IMO she shot him after she dragged him back into the bathroom. I think that's where she had thrown (or left) the gun before she stabbed him, and that she shot him either because she heard post-death sounds or just because she felt like it, being the completely despicable, vile, vengeful, sociopathic murderer she is.

 

[geevee]

She could have gone either way on Queensborough. West would take her back out to S. South Signal Butte, then up to 60, east would take her (more quickly, initially) out of his neighborhood, to that more deserted road I took a picture of and posted, and 2 turns would also put her on Signal Butte.

I don't believe she saw 2 little girls. Sounds more like one of her pointless embellishments....

-----------------

She says in her ninja stories that there was "blood everywhere, " yet she never saw either ninja stab Travis. Nah. There was blood everywhere because I think JM and Horn were right about the sequence of weapons.

I know nothing about guns. Is it possible she shot an unloaded gun while he was sitting in the shower? To terrorize him? And had the knife ready, so when he lunged forward, she stabbed him?

If not that scenario, I think he did lunge towards her and she stabbed him, but he didn't die immediately as she thought he would, that there was a struggle between the shower and vanities, that he managed to throw her off, that she stabbed him repeatedly in the back as he stared in shock in the mirror, that he turned and tried to block the stabs with his hands, that she kicked him in the knees and stomped on his feet during that struggle, that he was losing a tremendous amount of blood at that point and couldn't get back up after she succeeded in kicking him down, that he tried to crawl down the hall......

IMO she shot him after she dragged him back into the bathroom. I think that's where she had thrown (or left) the gun before she stabbed him, and that she shot him either because she heard post-death sounds or just because she felt like it, being the completely despicable, vile, vengeful, sociopathic murderer she is.

That's my biggest problem with the gunshot first theory - all of the blood all over the hallway, esp. the walls, as well as the opposite direction in front of the toilet closet door. I simply have a very hard time imagining, even with a small 25 caliber bullet shot into his head that he could have fought her to the sink, over by the toilet closet and then all the way down the hall while she's stabbing him and he's losing more and more blood.

I think she got a couple chest stabs in at the shower and started the back stabs at the sink (those closer to his shoulder) but was able to get him onto the floor by the tub/toilet closet and made the center back stabs, the direction of them changes and it accounts for the spatters and pool in that area, there were even spatters on the bottom of the toilet itself and on the window wall, so she was swinging the knife in that area.

With the last of his strength he was trying to get down the hallway and she was probably just swinging wildly until he collapsed near the bedroom threshold and she struck the final blow (I still want to wring her neck for what she said at sentencing about having to fight him off at that point, oh you lying, remorseless w**** you).

 

[RickshawFan]

I don't think there is any way of figuring out the timeline of June 4th without having more information. Even having just the complete record of computer activity would help, but no luck there, and the computer info that is available is muddled.

Little tidbits suggest, IMO, that she may have left after 2:00pm, then returned, though that leaving might just have been to hide in his garage.

- his journal found in his car, on the floor
- the tile cleaner taken out after roommies left in the AM
- the long gap between sets of photos, especially since TA had an important conference call at 7pm, was getting ready for Cancun, and it's difficult to imagine (nope, flat out impossible) that he was receptive to just hanging out with the all day; the oddity of where his camera bag was found- in the loft near a beanbag chair, rather than in his bedroom; and not least, the fact Zach didn't see or hear either of them between 3-4.

From TA's friends' reports to Flores, it seems unlikely they were in TA's bedroom when Zach was there, unless they were whispering and barely moving that whole time (walls are extremely thin and unsoundproof), and unlikely they were together in his study, unless there too they were deliberately being silent.

Maybe she asked about roomies, he told her Zach was off work, returning a rental car and would be back, and she "left" to avoid being seen by Zach, but returned with some lame excuse like- I forgot to give you the check or CD's).

(Btw, I think it's unclear when Zach noticed the slick bannisters and tile cleaner out. Flores's report notes Zach noticed "when he returned," but he returned twice that day- at 3, then in the late evening).

Where was she before the sex? If she knew the time stamp of the video and sort of got the title from History on TA's computer, she needn't have been in the house until the sex.

The camera bag may have been where it was found because messed with it. I think she didn't show up until the sex and she showed up with TA's camera. I don't think TA would have wanted to have her "hang out.' He sent her away right after the sex. This would have been consistent with his messaging and "our" general conclusion that he didn't want her in his life at all. I believe he was ashamed that he caved and needed to get rid of her and clean up ASAP. This must have stoked her rage.

She took his camera with her when she left. She came back with the excuse she had taken it by accident.

The camera bag was random because left it random. She stole it for a few hours and it was never back in the bag.

The roommate didn't hear or see her at 3 'cos she wasn't there. Unless I have the sex timeline incorrect.

 

[Val1]

I believe she thought through beforehand what she had to do to exit quickly, and did some groundwork before she killed him...maybe slipping that check into his drawer, hiding clothes on that closet top shelf where she says she reached for a gun, even bringing his wallet upstairs into the closet to save time afterwards.

As part of that efficiency, she may well have offered to help out with the cleaning he seems to have been doing, by putting his bedding in the wash, then the drier, perhaps as she watched him begin to use that tile cleaner.

One of the most mysterious things to me about that day is where TA and the were in the hour or so during the time Zach returned, that he didn't hear or see either of them. Made more sense when I thought the timestamps were off.

Are we sure the bannisters were slick when Zach returned home at 3? Enrique mentioned that, but he didn't return until hours later.

BBM - I wonder where Naps was during and after everything, did she drug him, lock him in the closet/garage/car? Just it seems really odd that if anything had happened to TA before Zach had left that afternoon and Naps had the run of the house still at that point, that Naps hadn't been distressed enough that Zach wouldn't have noticed anything. Was Naps not a barky sort of dog?