Sequence of Events Questioned

[UKGuy]

Maybe she never had on smaller panties - maybe she wore the bigger "Wednesday" panties to the White's house. What's the source that factualizes there were smaller panties in the first place?

Maybe they're not missing - maybe they never existed.

TLynn,

Thats what Patsy would like us to assume. And its perfectly possible, with any other state of affairs it would just not be noteworthy.

JonBenet was like most other girls her age, she would have been happy to play away and avoid the distraction of washing and changing if possible.

But under interview Patsy stated that she normally made sure JonBenet was washed and dressed for appoinments and outings etc.

Dont forget she already wanted JonBenet to be wearing a matching outfit, but JonBenet refused. So we can infer from that she did not simply shout through to her in the bathroom e.g. "OK honey you can wear those velvet pants, what color of top will you wear, remember and change your underwear" etc.

Patsy cannot remember if JonBenet bathed or changed her underwear christmas day, cannot remember what she wore out to play, cannot remember removing JonBenet's underwear after arriving back from the White's, cannot remember when she opened the size-12 pack of underwear ... importantly out of all those since Patsy would have supervised her change into the size-12, and this would have been a novel occurrence so not one to be forgotten so easily.

On her wearing them to the White's I reckon this will have crossed the police minds too. So when Fleet and Priscilla were interviewed you can bet they were both asked if either had escorted Jonbenet to the toilet, or did they notice anyone else doing this, did their daughter exchange underwear etc.

The nature of this questioning probably left them feeling as suspects not witnesses. Later when Fleet spoke to John, it was probably along the lines "I hope you are not fingering me, you know the cops have been asking me some questions about ******* " and John's reply or lack of one, likely caused Fleet to become incensed and angry.

Its also possible there is further evidence obtained from the White interviews which has some relevance otherwise Fleet would have been allowed a copy. The police did not want Fleet allowing John to read it and know which areas to stall on or become forgetful.

So up until Christmas Day in her sixth year its normal practise for Jonbenet to wear her own size underwear, and given the Ramsey amnesia, and why it may have been necessary for JonBenet to be re-dressed, then this sudden change in behaviour although possible seems unlikely!

 

[Camper]

Maybe she never had on smaller panties - maybe she wore the bigger "Wednesday" panties to the White's house. What's the source that factualizes there were smaller panties in the first place?

Maybe they're not missing - maybe they never existed.

------------>>>>JonBenet was only six years old. Maybe she wore pull ups underneath at other times' and the larger size accomodated that, and could have been used, speculation on my part. I remember when I was little and playing outdoors in my snow suit, I would be having so much fun playing in the snow, I would wait too long to visit the outhouse. Sorry thats what we had when I was a tot. Cold out there.

Perhaps the urine on the front came from laying on the Whites floor on her tummy, playing with the jewelry kit ? with John and the others, and her NOT wanting to leave this fun to go potty, hmmm.


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[sissi]

There is a theory that she was carried home mortally wounded,as well, after a bad accident at the White's. This theory must be "dead", as I haven't heard it in a long time. One of the reasons is perhaps that the wet longjohns wouldn't have fit into that scenario very well,as Jonbenet had on little black pants, evidentally that were taken into custody and were not urine stained,nor did they have fibers from the longjohns indicating they were worn under.

 

[UKGuy]

"Jonbenet had on little black pants, evidentally that were taken into custody and were not urine stained,nor did they have fibers from the longjohns indicating they were worn under."

sissi

Thats interesting now since I wonder if they tested the size-12 pants against any other fibers found on her black velvet pants, which I'm sure were the kind of material to trap fibers.

Although we all assume JonBenet was alive when she arrived home. There is nothing to confirm at what time she arrived home, only ramsey statements.

Also I can see her and Burke sitting in a relaxed domestic situation she snacking pineapple and him drinking tea. Now I've always found it curious that if there was a friendly 3rd party , why did he/she not join in on the refreshements?

 

[sissi]

UKGuy, I hadn't thought of that! You have a very good point, the fibers from either the black velvet pants should be on those undies or v/v, and yes that should "settle" the matter once and for all.
I wonder if it has? There are things we do not know, and the fact that the BPD always referred to a re-dressing could have merit, certainly they should know if the fibers were or were not there.

 

[UKGuy]

Sissi,

Yes interesting, aint it. Thats also likely why the BPD banged on and on about those pants in the Ramsey interview's. Remember John was asked did you undress JonBenet, was she wearing underwear etc. Patsy was asked so often her lawyer was jumping in saying "hey she has already answered that".
So I guess the BPD know some things we dont. I've always thought there is evidence missing.

Whats more interesting is how relatively together and co-ordinated the Ramseys were in their interviews. Neither really dropped the other in it. They were just on the right side of looking out for their interests, in the lawyered up sense.

I'm fairly confident there may have been a minimum of three re-dressings to suit changing circumstances and scenarios. Her final re-dressing was done to portray a bedroom abduction scenario, but although her bedroom looks ok. It does not reflect a situation where someone has been plucked sleeping from their bed. It hardly looks slept in.

And in the wine cellar there were various artifacts left around her body that should have been on her body, so in effect this was an unfinished staging.

Just thought I would mention it again, she was wearing no socks, does this mean she was totally re-dressed, or does it mean her socks were removed to give credibility to a bedroom abduction. Just as lots of kids sleep in their underwear lots sleep with their socks on. Especially in situations described by Patsy on that night as she put sleeping Jonbenet to bed.

So although it can be assumed she was re-dressed say in the basement, what if she was undressed elsewhere , to remove some other staged outfit, and it was replaced by what she was found in, excluding her socks and size-6 underwear, unless the socks were also used to wipe her down?

Also her size-6 underwear may have been either washed out and rinsed by hand, dried in the spin-dryer then put back in her bathroom. The fact there was 15 pairs and not say 14 I just thought was well curious. Anyway if the socks were upstairs maybe you can assume she was undressed upstairs.

So another consequence is that giving a maximum time frame of between 12 midnight and 6am the following day, that is six hours to get to get most details reasonably ok. But they never, and some things were undertaken, we know neither John or Patsy would not normally do, never mind during a homicide staging. So either the time frame collapses, causing stress and mistakes, or an intruder unknown or friendly is present. A proposition which is consistent with all the forensic cleaning. John and Patsy were aware if any of their fibers or dna were found on JonBenet it may look suspicious, but it would not be conclusive.

 

[sissi]

Singular suggested she was taken from the home, used in photographs and returned after an accident that caused her death.
The redressing, IMO, fits nicely into this, if she was taken from her bed, dressed in the barbie nightgown, redressed in the clothing she had on when taken, and returned to the basement, dead.

 

[UKGuy]

Singular suggested she was taken from the home, used in photographs and returned after an accident that caused her death.
The redressing, IMO, fits nicely into this, if she was taken from her bed, dressed in the barbie nightgown, redressed in the clothing she had on when taken, and returned to the basement, dead.

Sissi,

Why not once you have reason not to assume its all linear e.g. dead body, 3 suspects , case closed. Then its open to other interpretations.

 

[sissi]

You may find this "funny", but from the beginning I gave Patsy a pass for a pretty idiotic reason. I know me, and if the kids are ill, or I'm ill, I rush around and straighten the house, thinking "what would the emt's think if I had to call for an ambulance". I would have picked up and the emt's would come in to care for us while looking around saying, what a nice neat house. If Patsy had staged anything I believe she would have straightened up so as not to get that "pigstye" comment from people the likes of Steve Thomas. IMO, She would have cleaned Jonbenet as well, pretty pj's, no mucous drying on her sleeve, or running down her cheek...she would have made her look pretty!
I think I may qualify just as shallow as she;-)

 

[twinkiesmom]

<<When I mentioned brutalization of the body I was referring to the extreme tightening of the ligature around the neck and the horrendous hit on the head, probably with a baseball bat. Both of these acts likely occurred after death and, IMO, were done solely for effect. >>

I thought the forensics on the neck indicated those injuries occurred while she was living?

 

[Eagle1]

Nedra said one time that FW brought JonBenet home from playing, and he was carrying her panties, in ST's book I think I read just the other night, so this was a common thing. There was also something about Christmas.

I agree with whoever said it's probably in DOI. You have that book, Nehemiah? I don't and neither does my library or Borders, any more. They used to have it. Take a look for us, will you please?

There's another book, "A Little Girl's Dream". I'm not ready to get it yet, have to finish some others that are important.

Oh, and I think I was slightly misquoted way back on the first pg, not anything serious. If I really said she wrapped her legs around her dad to be carried into the Whites' home, I meant the Rs' home. Somebody said she was wearing panties and fibers from John's shirt were in the crotch.

Okay, but she may not have been still wearing the velvet pants and longjohns, after the bathroom incident where FW allegedly changed her. Especially if her coat was longer than a jacket and would keep her legs fairly warm to get to the car.

The time Nedra was talking about isn't what we're after. It's hard to find DOI any more. I wish I had bought a copy, paperback.

 

[Nehemiah]

You may find this "funny", but from the beginning I gave Patsy a pass for a pretty idiotic reason. I know me, and if the kids are ill, or I'm ill, I rush around and straighten the house, thinking "what would the emt's think if I had to call for an ambulance". I would have picked up and the emt's would come in to care for us while looking around saying, what a nice neat house. If Patsy had staged anything I believe she would have straightened up so as not to get that "pigstye" comment from people the likes of Steve Thomas. IMO, She would have cleaned Jonbenet as well, pretty pj's, no mucous drying on her sleeve, or running down her cheek...she would have made her look pretty!

Sissi, that is a very good point. If Patsy is really as hung up on beauty and appearances as we've been led to believe, it does seem that she would want JB to look pretty, even in death. After all, Patsy and JB were both beauty queens.

Eagle, I can't locate my DOI. I have come to believe that someone borrowed it and didn't return it. ST talks about Fleet taking JB to the bathroom, but he doesn't say that it was on Christmas. He leads one to believe that it was an occurrence from the past, and not on Christmas Night.

 

[Eagle1]

It's getting hard to find DOI any more, so don't forget to try to get yours back. You may be the only one of us who owns one. I hate when people keep my books.

Yeah, I said ST's book mentions one time FW had changed JBR's underpants according to Nedra, but there's also a Christmas incident somewhere.

JBR wasn't feeling too well, and lay on Daphne's bed for a while. Then they played with Daphne's Christmas gifts, and I said maybe she was lying on her stomach on the floor and had an accident.

She'd been molested a couple days before, according to the pathologists, and went to the school nurse two Mondays. I don't remember which book and I'm not having any success trying to find things at all.

 

[angarella]

Go to bookcloseouts.com, the have DOI for $4.12.

Just FYI!

 

[BrotherMoon]

If Patsy is really as hung up on beauty and appearances as we've been led to believe, it does seem that she would want JB to look pretty, even in death. After all, Patsy and JB were both beauty queens.

The thing Patsy left in the basement was an object, not a person. Patsy did tell Burke to look at her in the coffin, "She's perfect" Patsy said to him. JonBenet was an object to Patsy, subject to her judgement and whims. She's perfect when Patsy wants her to be and a thing to be discarded when Patsy wanted to do that. JonBenet is an angel in heaven now because that is what Patsy wants.

 

[princessmer81]

The thing Patsy left in the basement was an object, not a person. Patsy did tell Burke to look at her in the coffin, "She's perfect" Patsy said to him. JonBenet was an object to Patsy, subject to her judgement and whims. She's perfect when Patsy wants her to be and a thing to be discarded when Patsy wanted to do that. JonBenet is an angel in heaven now because that is what Patsy wants.

I can't get over the fact that Patsy buried JonBenet in a PAGENT DRESS with a big tiara on her head. I think that alone shows some mental disturbance. I was looking at some of the pagent pictures online again and I can't get over how "done up" JonBenet is. She doesn't look like a little girl, she looks like a shrunken down woman. In some of the close up pictures of just her face she looks at least 16 if not older. She was a very beautiful child and it seems that she was exploited because of it. I wonder how things may have been different had JonBenet not been so beautiful.

 

[Camper]

The thing Patsy left in the basement was an object, not a person. Patsy did tell Burke to look at her in the coffin, "She's perfect" Patsy said to him. JonBenet was an object to Patsy, subject to her judgement and whims. She's perfect when Patsy wants her to be and a thing to be discarded when Patsy wanted to do that. JonBenet is an angel in heaven now because that is what Patsy wants.

-------------->>>You say that "JonBenet is an angel in heaven now because that is what Patsy wants.

Question: What does Patsy want for herself? Rephrase question so no mis understanding, what does Patsy want for Patsy?




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[concernedperson]

-------------->>>You say that "JonBenet is an angel in heaven now because that is what Patsy wants.

Question: What does Patsy want for herself? Rephrase question so no mis understanding, what does Patsy want for Patsy?











I will jump in on this one....IMO Patsy wants adulation for herself. Grieving mother, misguided wife, victim of illness, protectress of all family, long suffering and enduring with a light that doesn't shine bright enough for her. Can you tell I don't like her? It is also called Borderline Personality Disorder and there is nothing religious about it.




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[BrotherMoon]

-------------->>>You say that "JonBenet is an angel in heaven now because that is what Patsy wants.

Question: What does Patsy want for herself? Rephrase question so no mis understanding, what does Patsy want for Patsy?

Good question. The crisis event that led to JonBenet's death has come and gone. Patsy's inner conflict was not adequately resolved as it was projected onto an outer object and dealt with by proxy. Thus that conflict is only placated and repressed and could surface again. But I doubt it, as Patsy has said she is not as afraid of death now. It was the fear of death and judgement and the deadline of the last Christmas before her 40th that drove her to act. I keep hoping she has unsettled bussiness (pun intended) that may involve Burke and will expose herself that way. She has a pattern of doing weird things like flashing the victory sign to photographers, wearing purple to public events, asking people to hang angels in the tree at the gravesite and decorating rooms in her house with the pineapple motif. It seems to me that she still wants the world to know about her little travails in life. Psychotics often have to repeat their little play acts of destruction in the temporal world, as they never really resolve what rightly belongs in their minds. I think Patsy's repression is aided by drugs, John's money and lawyers. Patsy's passion play of "96 may be enough to get her to the end of her life without any more major events. John's efforts at keeping her a Stepford wife maybe enough also. But I hope not. I hope she doesn't want to leave the stage without another major display. Meanwhile, I will have to be content with minor displays.

 

[BrotherMoon]

It is also called Borderline Personality Disorder and there is nothing religious about it.

Right, Patsy is not a true narcissist. She has a borderline ego structure surrounded by a narcissist attitude. Some researchers say the two ego structures are dissimilar. But it is possible to have the weaker borderline ego structure within what looks like a functional narcissist personality.