Sequence of Events Questioned

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Interesting BrotherMoon.

Another question, WHAT TRIGGERS or causes this whole mental problem, or is a person BORN with it or the tendencies to go overboard with the whole problem?





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Nehemiah said:
Sissi, that is a very good point. If Patsy is really as hung up on beauty and appearances as we've been led to believe, it does seem that she would want JB to look pretty, even in death. After all, Patsy and JB were both beauty queens.

Eagle, I can't locate my DOI. I have come to believe that someone borrowed it and didn't return it. ST talks about Fleet taking JB to the bathroom, but he doesn't say that it was on Christmas. He leads one to believe that it was an occurrence from the past, and not on Christmas Night.

JMO, but yep, Patsy would never let Jonbenet be "seen" like that.

Eagle, I have my copy, briefly skimmed through again looking for something along the line of what ya' wanted, but found nothing. It's seemed odd to me, considering how much Steve wanted Patsy as perp, however within the pages of his book he made a pretty good case against both White and Santa, I certainly doubt this was his intention nevertheless he presented both as being off. Maybe that is where the info you want is, in Steve's book?

I have found, many things that happened to Jonbenet in her past seemed to pop up in media print as current happenings. White, I doubt took care of her toileting at six, perhaps at ages younger, but not likely six. The nanny that preceded the hiring of "housekeeper" LHP, gave a much more normal portrayal of this family, with the chronology far more on target for such things as potty training ,bottle use, etc.
 
good grief....so many excellent threads about this case...my eyes are hurting, but i'll be up early w/my coffee, to read more.....

BlueCrab sure makes sense...the theory of Burke & all, but i just don't see it happening....maaaybe, i dunno....oh gosh, i'm going to start flip-flopping again...i've got to finish Steve Thomas' book, & find another one, too....
 
Nehemiah, we both feel it was probably in ST's book about FW taking JBR to the bathroom, or maybe responding if she called out for someone.

I say it was when the R's were there for Christmas and you say some other time. I agree there were other times. Nedra mentioned FW bringing JBR home from playing carrying her underwear, and I think I've posted the page number. She'd be wearing Daphne's.

Not that this point probably matters as much as a lot of others. Since it happened a lot, maybe this occasion was no different.
 
Eagle1 said:
Nehemiah, we both feel it was probably in ST's book about FW taking JBR to the bathroom, or maybe responding if she called out for someone.

I say it was when the R's were there for Christmas and you say some other time. I agree there were other times. Nedra mentioned FW bringing JBR home from playing carrying her underwear, and I think I've posted the page number. She'd be wearing Daphne's.

Not that this point probably matters as much as a lot of others. Since it happened a lot, maybe this occasion was no different.

i didn't read anywhere that this happened Christmas, but it was mentioned that this happened quite often, where Fleet would bring JBR's soiled underpants, back to the Ramsey house...
 
Since there was no mention in the autopsy report of any red staining on the outer aspect of the crotch of the panties, does that imply that there was insufficient blood to penetrate the panties or that the panties were impenetrable by design (crotch was absorbent)?

Which occurred first? Did she urinate first or bleed first? If she bled first, then why didn't the urine (in much greater quantity, I assume) diffuse the blood and/or cause it to migrate through the fabric such that it would be visible to the naked eye on the outer aspect of the crotch of the panties, and possibly even on the inner aspect of the crotch of the longjohns? I know for a fact that urine dissolves blood.

That apparently no such migration occurred leads me to believe that urination occurred first and was followed, after some sufficient period of time, by the bleeding. I have postulated hereinbefore that the bleeding occurred when the body was picked up (moved) by John, the blood having first coagulated in the vault and vestibule, then re-liquified with time, permitting it to flow when subjected to the force of gravity. Perhaps, during the process of being transported out of the basement and up to the stairs to the foyer, there was enough movement (jostling) of the pelvic area and it's wrapping (the underwear) to produce several red areas of staining, not just one.

There are only a very limited number of plausible explanations for the several red areas. Steady bleeding from a motionless body would not produce them; it would produce only one red area. Motion (movement) of the panties relative to the body could produce several distinct (separate) red areas if the bleeding were minimal, which it apparently was-not a steady flow, but an intermittent flow; i.e., drips.

Is it possible that the urine stain on the panties was due to transfer from the longjohns, the unstained panties having been installed prior to re-installation of the wet longjohns? If this was not the case, then my hypothesis regarding the wiping and redressing may not be correct. Recall that I postulated that she had first been sexually injured, had bled, had been wiped and had undergone a change of panties (the too-big ones) and had subsequently urinated. It would not have been necessary-to validate my hypothesis, that the longjohns be wet prior to that time. However, if that was not the case, then it would be necessary that urination occur after the sexual injury but without washing any blood (assuming it was present) out of the vaginal area. I think the female anatomy would allow for this, but I won't go into that discussion, in order to avoid upsetting Miss Daisey.


"JonBenet's longjohn's had a urine stain on the front - which would mean, if releasing urine upon death, she died on her stomach." Very good point and one with which I'd agree. The release would be slow and the body would be motionless.

"The oversized panties were stained with urine as well...mixed with a spot of blood." I'm not sure this is true, that the urine and the blood were mixed. Some mixing may have occurred due to blood having been deposited upon the urine-stained area. The coroner didn't say that the blood had co-mingled with the urine prior to (or during) it's deposition.

"Wouldn't this mean that JonBenet was NOT "redressed" after the murder - but before? If after the murder, wouldn't the oversized panties be dry? Especially if wiped down before the redressing." Excellent observation and one with which I heartily agree.

"So, if the "wiping down" happen before the oversized panties were put on - then was JonBenet still alive when "wiped down" and "redressed." YES, YES, YES.

"The blood was mixed with urine, so the molestation could have taken place within the redressing period. At that point, wouldn't JonBenet still be alive?" Agree except with respect to your characterization of blood mixed with urine.

"The oversized panties were in her bedroom - doesn't it make more sense that the redressing occurred in her bedroom - as to the killer running upstairs (while JonBenet still alive), pulling out the drawer and picking "Wednesday" - to run back down the stairs to redress her body in the cellar." Makes perfect sense to me.

"There was never a matching urine stain found (on floor, bedding, etc.) that I know of... So where, on her stomach, did JonBenet die? Where is the urine stain?" VERY good question!
__________________
 
Thanks for the reply, RedChief....

As in the words of Leonardo DiCaprio in "Catch Me If You Can" - I concur.

But, if the molestation took place, let's say, in JonBenet's bedroom (and she was alive); hence, the convenient change into big panties -

how did the paintbrush trace (which was found inside JonBenet) get there? Did the perp run downstairs for the paintbrush and bring it back upstairs (not very likely)

Or, was there another "cover-up" after the body was taken into the cellar (i.e. the body re-molested w/the broken paint brush?)
 
TLynn,

Interesting observations.

As to the particle of cellulose found in the vagina: That it came from the brush was never definitely proven, but I have no problem with what you say appears to have been a re-molestation. The original "molestation" may have had been attributable to something else - corporal punishment? Whereas the final molestation, as you imply, could have been staged injury employing the paintbrush or some portion thereof.

Keep them neurons well lubricated!
 
How did that birefringent particle ,known for years as only that,so much later, become accepted as part of the paintbrush? Could it not have been a piece of glitter?
 
sissi,

Were they one and the same - the cellulose particle and the birefringent materal? At least one expert thought the cp had been there for a long while.
 
Just thinking. What IF IF the tiny tip end of the brush, that had been broken off previously (as in my thought that the unwieldy brush used for wash on painting canvas, had been made shorter to speed up the canvas prep) had been kept in a container of whittling debris. Hence when it was used that night has some remnants from the whittling debris on it.

The small son, had been chastised about whittling in the main house area. So maybe he had become neater with his whittling efforts. Then perhaps he indeed had been given permission to have the tip end to whittle on. The size of that remaining tip end would have been an interesting size, without becoming indelicate here on the forum.



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RedChief said:
sissi,

Were they one and the same - the cellulose particle and the birefringent materal?

This is how I have understood it ,yes one and the same.
 
Camper said:
The size of that remaining tip end would have been an interesting size, without becoming indelicate here on the forum.


Camper,

Let me be the heavy at this point. I'll be indelicate for you. If I'm wrong about what you're suggesting, just slap me with a kipper.

The tip of the paintbrush handle that is missing, at an earlier date, could have been whittled into the shape of the head of a male's penis. IOW, the stick could have been used as a female masturbation device.

The missing tip was only about an inch or so in length and the 5/8" diameter piece of wood could not have been broken off by hand. It had to have been whittled off. So that's likely the source of the wooden shards found just outside of the wine cellar door. In this hypothesis the tip had been whittled off to destroy the carved penis and thus help cover up the sexual aspect of the murder.

Why else would someone cut off a one-inch long tip of the paintbrush handle?

BlueCrab
 
I believe there is nothing to indicate that the paintbrush had been whittled.
The fact that LHP made a comment about Burke whittling in some way was placed on the paintbrush being whittled, no where has that been stated as a fact or insinuated as fact. It has been stated that the paintbrush was broken and shards were recovered, not shavings.
 
sissi,

From Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

(1.) Shard - a piece or fragment of a brittle substance.

(2.) Splinter - a thin piece split or broken off lengthwise (synonym: sliver); a small needlelike particle.

(3.) Shave (verb) - to remove a thin layer from.

(4.) Shaving - something shaved off wood.

Does this help?
 
Thanks RedChief! How many think shards indicate whittling took place?

birefringence- double refraction : the refraction of light in an anisotropic material (as calcite) in two slightly different directions to form two rays
- bi·re·frin·gent /-j&nt/ adjective
 
BlueCrab said:
The tip of the paintbrush handle that is missing, at an earlier date, could have been whittled into the shape of the head of a male's penis. IOW, the stick could have been used as a female masturbation device.
BlueCrab,

Let me weigh in on this line of inquiry. I've been 'whittling' since I was 10-years old (some 50 years ago.) "Whittling" the end of a paint brush handle into the shape of....well, a male member, would only be the start of shaping a wooden "female masturbation device," how may I say this... "before it is usable."

Whittling a piece of wood, at best, leaves only a rough hewn sculpture. If one wants a smooth finish, many hours of sanding follow the initial whittling, using increasing fine grades of sandpaper. (I use four grades of increasingly fine sandpaper before I achieve a 'polished' sculpture after the initial whittling.)

Suggesting that a 10-year old boy would spend the hours needed to whittle, sand and polish a piece of wood into a "female masturbation device" for his 6-year old sister is highly implausible.
 

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