Serious DNA discussion

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon - can I just clarify what you're saying? The ransom note was written in block letters. You believe that LE should have looked at Patsy's samples from before the crime, seen that they were written in a cursive hand and said something like" Ok well, it's not Patsy because she doesn't write in block letters!" Is that what you truly believe?

TinaD, that REALLY would have been incompetent.

Yeah, it would be like excluding suspects just because they don't speak English!

Everybody writes in block letters, in one place or another. Its more challenging for LE to find those before-the-murder samples because they would not be biased or manufactured.

Biased is when the defendant has already seen the document, and modifies their writing, deliberately or accidentally, based on what they have seen. They could modify their writing either closer to or further away from the document.

Manufactured is when LE specifically asks for block, left hand, and right hand writing while copying the document word for word.

PRs samples that are copies of the RN are biased AND manufactured. As a juror I'd ignore them.

 

[angelwngs]

Sorry to interrupt. I have never been able to understand the determination of people who have no connection to this crime yet continue to think up the most curious and far out ways to make the parents guilty. It's as if it's a game. I do think it takes a wild imagination to do this from some of the posts I have read over the years.

If the parents had been guilty, they would have been arrested, imo. They never had any evidence to even arrest them, much less convict them. Even a grand jury saw no reason to arrest them. Despite the media hype, and it was HUGE! often intermixed with plenty of opinions and outright lies, not to mention the nightly edited scenes of Jon Benet slow dancing to edited sexy music, nothing happened. The police simply didn't have anybody. So, they went for the parents, (always the safest way to show they're doing their job) . People believed them and still do. In this country, we are innocent unless proven guilty, and there has been so much confusion from the media about the evidence, that it appears to me whoever did it, unfortunately got away with it, and that's probably the end of the story. I do hope they find the real killer someday, but after so much time, it's doubtful they ever will. So let the child and her mother rest in peace for goodness sake.

You are entitled to your opinion as is every other poster at WS.

To date, there is as much untainted evidence which supports the Ramsey's guilt as there is which supports the guilt of an intruder. That is why there has been no justice for JonBenet. The Ramsey's made dam# sure of it.

May JonBenet Rest in Peace in the knowledge that as long as there is breath in the bodies of her supporters they will seek truth and justice.

May P. Ramsey ___ __ ____. (Fill in the blank.)

 

[Ames]

Of course they needed manuscript writing. Its the only way to make PR's writing look like the perps!

If PR doesn't write in block letters before the murder, then she doesn't write in block letters after. You can't force someone to write in a way that they dont write, just to make it more similar to the writing you're trying to compare! You're stuck with whatever samples are available before the murder, whether they're cursive or block.

The only valid comparison is to take samples from PR that already existed before the murder. For all you know, PR had guilt and wanted to be arrested for the murder, so she tried to make her writing look like the perps. People take raps for crimes others commit all the time. Ask JMK!

OH give me a break, if YOU had written a fake RN in block letters, and you were asked to give a handwriting sample...are you going to automatically start writing in block letters...OR are you going to write a totally different way...in cursive...to distance yourself as far as possible from block lettering handwriting??? And if she didn't write the note, then her handwriting wouldn't look the the author of it.

 

[DeeDee249]

It had been observed that PR noticeably changed her handwriting after the murder.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, it would be like excluding suspects just because they don't speak English!

Which one was that again? And aren't you the one saying the RN writer isn't a native English speaker anyway?

Everybody writes in block letters, in one place or another.

I'm not so sure about that. (I can't remember the last time I did, but then it doesn't come up much.)

Its more challenging for LE to find those before-the-murder samples because they would not be biased or manufactured.

Again, I would agree, to a point. But you can't have "before" without "after" can you? It sounds to me like you have a problem with the process of handwriting analysis in general, Holdon. Maybe your complaint is legit. But you can't go back.

Biased is when the defendant has already seen the document, and modifies their writing, deliberately or accidentally, based on what they have seen. They could modify their writing either closer to or further away from the document.

By that logic, everyone who was tested would have to be scrapped.

Manufactured is when LE specifically asks for block, left hand, and right hand writing while copying the document word for word.

Well then, we've got a big problem, because from what I can tell that's SOP. Besides, if the BPD is as incompetent as so many say, they wouldn't be that clever! Even if they WERE trying to trick or trap Patsy. (Which I highly doubt, but that's me)

PRs samples that are copies of the RN are biased AND manufactured.

Well, you're free to make that argument.

As a juror I'd ignore them.

Then you and I have something in common, Holdon: we'd never be jurors on this case. Remember a few months back when you told me I wouldn't make a good juror in this case? I did not disagree, if memory serves. Well, looks like we're even.

Since we're NOT jurors, you can ignore whatever you like. I can't speak for anyone else (I'm sure they can-and will-speak for themselves on this), but for my part (and ONLY my part, for the time being) I can't ignore them. I can't not see what my eyes see. It just doesn't work that way. And I trust my own eyes. I've never had reason not to do so. Again, that's me.

OH give me a break, if YOU had written a fake RN in block letters, and you were asked to give a handwriting sample...are you going to automatically start writing in block letters...OR are you going to write a totally different way...in cursive...to distance yourself as far as possible from block lettering handwriting???

Yeah, it makes sense that someone would try to put one over. Any cop would be onto that.

And if she didn't write the note, then her handwriting wouldn't look the the author of it.

Well said, IMO.

 

[TinaD]

Yeah, it would be like excluding suspects just because they don't speak English!

Um, no it isn't. At all. You are confusing "don't" with "doesn't usually". I don't speak Japanese, therefore if I was asked to write in Japanese I couldn't becuase I don't have the ability. If a document was written in fluent Japanese, I could be excluded as the author becuase of that fact.
However, I don't usually write in block letters, but I do have the ability. I cannot be excluded just because I don't usually do it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Um, no it isn't. At all. You are confusing "don't" with "doesn't usually". I don't speak Japanese, therefore if I was asked to write in Japanese I couldn't becuase I don't have the ability. If a document was written in fluent Japanese, I could be excluded as the author becuase of that fact.
However, I don't usually write in block letters, but I do have the ability. I cannot be excluded just because I don't usually do it.

You're right. Someone who normally writes in another language could write the RN, even though they 'don't usually' write in English.

Many RDI posters claimed that nobody from a SFF could have written the RN because the English is too good. They would have bad grammer with broken English phrases, or so I'm told.

According to your logic, foreign author can't be excluded just because they dont usually write in English. TY.

 

[TinaD]

No, you are once again trying to twist my words (I may only be a new poster here, but I've read here for a couple of years).

I made absolutely no comment about whether or not a foreigner could have written the RN. I personally believe that the language indicates the writer would have to be very fluent in English, however that was not the point of my post. Your statement is simply not a logical follow on from mine.

 

[coloradokares]

No, you are once again trying to twist my words (I may only be a new poster here, but I've read here for a couple of years).

I made absolutely no comment about whether or not a foreigner could have written the RN. I personally believe that the language indicates the writer would have to be very fluent in English, however that was not the point of my post. Your statement is simply not a logical follow on from mine.

You may be new, WELCOME!! Great to have you here. It is good to see you will not allow your words and thoughts to be twisted. :clap:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No, you are once again trying to twist my words (I may only be a new poster here, but I've read here for a couple of years).

I made absolutely no comment about whether or not a foreigner could have written the RN. I personally believe that the language indicates the writer would have to be very fluent in English, however that was not the point of my post. Your statement is simply not a logical follow on from mine.

Again, you're right.

But the writer could still be EASL (English as 2nd Language), only fluent EASL, using the same logic you applied on the writing issue. Or, are we selectively applying such logic?

 

[Ames]

http://www.uslawbooks.com/books/forensicsamples.htm

Investigators Guide for the Collection of Handwriting Samples

It is the investigators responsibility to collect the samples required for comparison and also interview the subject of the investigation. The investigator can be anyone that obtains the sample or a professional legal investigator. No matter who does the investigation there are important guidelines for the collection of such samples the must be adhered to before, during and after sample collecting.​

BEFORE
1. Know the questioned document (QD). Identify the paper type and instrument used to create the writing. Determine if written in ink, pencil or other.
2. Prepare paper and writing implements prior to the sample collection investigative interview session. The investigator must obtain a suitable sample for analysis.
3. Prior to the interview sample as the subject to "sign in" your guest log or fill in a "form" of some type. Typically we ask that they sign a for that explains the interview process and an identification of the subject. In this way you obtain a sample outside of the actual sampling process.​

DURING
Make and Note Observations: The subject should be under direct or indirect observation at all times. Is the subject nervous, in ill health, is the writing hand in some unnatural position (this should be observed well before the session) in comparison to the earlier sign in. Is the subject writing fast or slow. The investigator should point out any unusual action by the subject and encourage them to write naturally.
1. Never allow the subject to see the questioned material.
2. Provide similar materials that were used in the questioned document. Do not allow the subject to use their own writing instruments.
3. The writing material in question should be dictated to the subject so that any spelling errors will be reproduced by the subject or be provided a typed copy of the material that is to the sample collected.
4. The samples should be removed from the subjects view as soon as the sample is complete. Download our Specimen Analysis Forms (SAF) and when used should be provided on at a time.
5. The investigator may request in writing that the subject write specific words using specified letters and letter case An example would be to as the subject to use different letters in combination or otherwise.
6. Number each sample as soon as completed as a known document (KD-1, KD-2,...) and have the subject, date, e sign and print their name on each sample.
AFTER
Immediately upon completing the investigative session the samples should be secured with controlled access and not to be seen by the subject again.
Prepare the sample for submission to the NSP laboratory for analysis. If being submitted for a level one analysis quality photocopies should be scanned using the highest resolution available. Scans of different sized enlargements at maximum resolution is desirable. For a level two analysis the originals must be sent hand delivered registered. In call cases copies should be made and kept available for the investigator.

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No Holdon...they didn't treat Patsy any different than any other suspect, as far as writing samples go.
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[Ames]

http://www.asqde.org/vastrick/known.htm


OBTAINING KNOWN HANDWRITING
SPECIMENS

Thomas W. Vastrick
Forensic Document Examiner


One of the most commonly asked questions of forensic document examiners is, “What kind of handwriting specimens do you need for comparison purposes?” The following are some general guidelines to follow when preparing a handwriting case for submission to a forensic document examiner.
NON-REQUEST SPECIMENS

Non-request specimens are handwriting samples that are taken from the subjects day-to-day activities. These may include such items as canceled checks, employment applications, signatures on driver’s licenses and the like. When selecting non-request specimens consider the following:

Contemporaneous
One’s handwriting can change or evolve over long and even short periods of time. Handwriting and signature specimens should be dated as close as possible to the date of the purported writings - ideally, from a few months before to a few months after to offset this phenomenon. This is particularly important if the purported writer is elderly, ill or sustained an injury around the date of the writings.
Comparable
If a forensic document examiner is to compare cursive writings, they cannot perform a thorough examination from printed specimens. Submissions should include letters and letter combinations that are repeated in the questioned writings.In addition, the specimens should be of similar format - meaning that the specimens should be upper or lower case and cursive or printed as is reflected in the questioned writing.
How Much?
A forensic document examination cannot be adequately performed when comparing one signature to one other signature. Handwriting identification is based on habits. Habits can only be determined through the scrutinization of numerous specimens. The client should make a dedicated effort to obtain as many specimens as they can possible find.
REQUEST SPECIMENS

Request specimens are those that are actually taken from the subject for the expressed purpose of forensic document examination. Below are some general guidelines to follow when taking handwriting specimens.

Preparation
Taking proper handwriting specimens involves more than slapping a few signature samples onto a sheet of paper in five minutes. It takes preparation and a flexible action plan to deal with all kinds of developments along the way.
If at all possible, obtain non-request specimens prior to taking the request specimens. This will provide you with samples of the subject handwriting that are normal and natural in nature. If none can be found, request some form of signed identification such as a driver’s license. Make a copy of this identification.
Have available certain writing instruments and papers that will provide the best atmosphere possible for obtaining normal, natural handwriting. Select paper that is as close to the size of the document in question as possible. If the document in question is a form such as a legal document or a credit card receipt, obtain a blank form and make numerous copies for use as the paper on which the handwriting will be taken. Select a series of pens or pencils that are consistent in form to the document in question. For instance, if the writing is in ball point pen, obtain numerous sizes of ball point pens and allow the subject to select that which is most comfortable for him or her. The subject may also wish to use their own ball point pen which would certainly be appropriate and desirable.
Provide a setting for writing that is comparable to the setting of which the document in question was prepared. For instance, if the document is a check that was signed at a teller window, the subject should stand in front of a tall table when preparing the specimens. If the writing is graffiti on a bathroom wall, then a large sheet of butcher paper would be taped to a smooth wall accordingly.
Preliminary Specimens
One drawback to request specimens is disguise. The first few specimens taken should be carefully scrutinized for characteristics of disguise. One technique is to request samples of the subject’s signature and make a brief comparison of these samples to the signature on the identification card. This does not require an in-depth review but rather an overview of the general appearance.
Next, it is recommended that a general handwriting form be completed. A general handwriting form is a document containing numerous names, numbers and words that are to be completed by the subject. Attempts to disguise writing usually results in a nonuniform appearance to the writing - the slant changes or the size of the writing changes.
Verbatim Specimens
Verbatim specimens are those that repeat each questioned entry. This type of specimens allows the forensic document examiner to scrutinize characteristics that interrelate between characters such as relative letter heights, baseline habits and such. It is generally recommended that 15-20 verbatim request specimens be taken.
CONCLUSION

Should you have any questions about obtaining handwriting specimens, contact a well-trained, experienced forensic document examiner. They will be pleased to help you with your specific case.

Feel free to contact me anytime with questions.

Thomas W. Vastrick
Forensic Document Examiner
6600 Stage Rd. Suite 126
Bartlett, TN 38134
(901) 383-9282
(800) 544-0004
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Again, I will say...Patsy was treated NO different than anybody else. Holdon, nice try...maybe you can come up with something else.

 

[coloradokares]

Again, I will say...Patsy was treated NO different than anybody else. Holdon, nice try...maybe you can come up with something else.



Smokin hot!!! Way to go AMES

 

[Ames]

Again, I will say...Patsy was treated NO different than anybody else. Holdon, nice try...maybe you can come up with something else.



Smokin hot!!! Way to go AMES

LOL...thanks!

 

[Ames]

Where are you??

 

[TinaD]

You may be new, WELCOME!! Great to have you here. It is good to see you will not allow your words and thoughts to be twisted. :clap:

Thanks coloradokares!

 

[BBB167893]

And THAT'S why I'm glad Ames is on our side!

I'd like to add a few things myself:

1) The author is highly intelligent with a high-tone vocabulary.

2) The author felt correct indentation and punctuation was important.

3) The writer is familiar with editing symbols.

4) The writer places periods between letters of acronyms, an uncommon practice since the 1960s. Would someone who learned English as a second language know that? They would had to have lived here before 1965.

5) The writer placed the closing under the body of the letter rather than block style.

6) The author followed the steps taught to communications/journalism majors on how to write a story.

So, anyone know any over-35 (as of 1996) journalism majors?

 

[Ames]

http://www.dianagking.com/OBTAINING%20HANDWRITING%20SAMPLES%20DOCUMENT%20EXAMINER%20Diana%20G%20King.htm


Guidelines for Obtaining Requested Writing Exemplars

There is a method for obtaining good requested standards. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The investigator should be prepared in advance to obtain though dictation, both verbatim and non-verbatim known, requested writings (exemplars). This is more likely to yield request writings sufficient for identification or elimination of the writer as the author of a questioned document. [/FONT]Taking proper handwriting specimens involves more than collecting a few hurried autographs onto a sheet of notebook paper. It takes preparation, attentiveness and an understanding of a prescribed approach that will yield informative and defensible comparison samples.

Preparation​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Always study the questioned writing ahead of time so you know its content and what kind of writing (handwriting or hand printing, upper case or lower case) was used. This is important because, for best results, the known requested writings must be comparable in terms of content and type of writing to the questioned document.[/FONT]

<<SNIPPED>>

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HOLDON....PULEEZEE....Must I go on??
​

 

[Ames]

And THAT'S why I'm glad Ames is on our side!

I'd like to add a few things myself:

1) The author is highly intelligent with a high-tone vocabulary.

2) The author felt correct indentation and punctuation was important.

3) The writer is familiar with editing symbols.

4) The writer places periods between letters of acronyms, an uncommon practice since the 1960s. Would someone who learned English as a second language know that? They would had to have lived here before 1965.

5) The writer placed the closing under the body of the letter rather than block style.

6) The author followed the steps taught to communications/journalism majors on how to write a story.

So, anyone know any over-35 (as of 1996) journalism majors?

Thanks SD...the RDI side is the ONLY side...IMO. I got so tired of Holdon going ON and ON and ON and ....well, you get the point, about Patsy's samples being "junk", and should be "thrown out"....because, well...everybody in the whole world was out to get her, so they bent the rules and made Patsy do something that they wouldn't have made anybody else do. Which in fact...the opposite is true. They treated her just like they would have any other SUSPECT!

Hmmmm...lets see...a journalism major....over 35 (as of 96)? Man SD..thats a hard one! I will have to think about that awhile, and get back to ya.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Where are you??

Uh, right here.

Thanks Ames, because it seems pretty obvious that FDE's have to cope with many factors and issues with request specimens. Again, as a juror onh any case, I would give weight only to the non-request specimens. Between all the surveillance and coersion, I don't think you could ever get request specimens that are valid.

1) The author is highly intelligent with a high-tone vocabulary.

You're kidding, right? The vocabulary barely went beyond middle school. There were zero words that exceeded an elementary school spelling bee contestants ability, and the author even misspells common words like business (something JR's wife wouldn't do). The RN vocabulary and writing skill in English for a EASL is probably less than 5 years if they are dedicated.