What details would you like clarified?

[trixie]

How do you know the wooden shards had been whittled off the end of the stick? Is it just your guess?

 

[BlueCrab]

How do you know the wooden shards had been whittled off the end of the stick? Is it just your guess?

trixie,

Yes, it's a guess. I feel that way because the tip of the stick is missing, so it must have looked like something or contained something the perp didn't want known, so he destroyed it. I also believe the EA device was made at least one day prior to the killing; there wasn't enough time to construct such an elaborate device the night of the crime.

The most obvious thing the perp probably didn't want known would be the sexual aspects of the crime. He cleaned up JonBenet and changed her underwear, made the killing look like the work of a foreign terrorist, and wrote a three-page ransom note to make it appear to be a kidnapping gone wrong, thus pointing away from Ramsey family members and the sexual aspects of the murder.

So yes, IMO the wooden shards were probably from the tip of the stick that was tied to the ligature. The shards could also be the source of DNA-X.

BlueCrab

 

[Linda7NJ]

trixie,

Yes, it's a guess. I feel that way because the tip of the stick is missing, so it must have looked like something or contained something the perp didn't want known, so he destroyed it. I also believe the EA device was made at least one day prior to the killing; there wasn't enough time to construct such an elaborate device the night of the crime.

The most obvious thing the perp probably didn't want known would be the sexual aspects of the crime. He cleaned up Jon Benet and changed her underwear, made the killing look like the work of a foreign terrorist, and wrote a three-page ransom note to make it appear to be a kidnapping gone wrong, thus pointing away from Ramsey family members and the sexual aspects of the murder.

So yes, IMO the wooden shards were probably from the tip of the stick that was tied to the ligature.

BlueCrab

Not enough time to make a garrote, but time to write a 3 page ransom note, clean her up, whittle off the end of the handle, and change her clothes?

How do you account for JonBenet's hair being entangled in it? How about the way it was loosely tied to her wrist?

 

[BlueCrab]

Not enough time to make a garrote, but time to write a 3 page ransom note, clean her up, whittle off the end of the handle, and change her clothes?

How do you account for JonBenet's hair being entangled in it? How about the way it was loosely tied to her wrist?

Linda7NJ,

You got me in regard to the hair entangled in the knot on the stick. I just studied the crime scene photo of the knot again and you're right. JonBenet's hair is definitely imbedded in the knot.

I retract my statement about the ligature being constructed ahead of time. The knot on the stick had to have been made in place on JonBenet -- but why? Since she was probably already dead by that time, what use would the stick have? The stick appears to have been staging.

The wrist ligature is easier to explain. Ligatures are like slip knots. If JonBenet's body weight was pulling on the ligature it would have made the ligature tight. When the body weight was removed from the ligature it automatically loosened the ligature. John said the wrist ligature was tight and hard to remove -- which meant that JonBenet's body weight was likely keeping the ligature tight. It suggests JonBenet was strung up somehow and John cut her down.

Once the pressure from the wrist ligature was removed, the ligature loosened and fell off one wrist and almost fell off the other wrist. (The wrists had been bound together with one ligature.)

BlueCrab

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

You got me in regard to the hair entangled in the knot on the stick. I just studied the crime scene photo of the knot again and you're right. JonBenet's hair is definitely imbedded in the knot.

I retract my statement about the ligature being constructed ahead of time. The knot on the stick had to have been made in place on JonBenet -- but why? Since she was probably already dead by that time, what use would the stick have? The stick appears to have been staging.

The wrist ligature is easier to explain. Ligatures are like slip knots. If JonBenet's body weight was pulling on the ligature it would have made the ligature tight. When the body weight was removed from the ligature it automatically loosened the ligature. John said the wrist ligature was tight and hard to remove -- which meant that JonBenet's body weight was likely keeping the ligature tight. It suggests JonBenet was strung up somehow and John cut her down.

Once the pressure from the wrist ligature was removed, the ligature loosened and fell off one wrist and almost fell off the other wrist. (The wrists had been bound together with one ligature.)

BlueCrab

But there was no evidence on her wrists that it had ever tightened. I think there would have been had she been suspended or even tight for any length of time. I do think she was alive when the stick was quickly tied to the rope while JonBenet was unconscious. I think the murderer needed the extra leverage to strangle her until she died. I think the wrist could have been staging like the duct tape.

I once did a lot of research on strangulation, it takes much longer and is far more difficult than most imagine. Remember Dennis Raders comments on the subject?

 

[UKGuy]

Linda7NJ,

You got me in regard to the hair entangled in the knot on the stick. I just studied the crime scene photo of the knot again and you're right. JonBenet's hair is definitely imbedded in the knot.

BlueCrab

This feature has already been remarked upon, here http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=938492&postcount=41 , and in other posts.


It would be an advance in JonBenet's case to conclude much of what is presented in the wine-cellar is that of a staged crime-scene, this aspect has, over the years, probably misled so many people?




.

 

[BlueCrab]

But there was no evidence on her wrists that it had ever tightened. I think there would have been had she been suspended or even tight for any length of time. I do think she was alive when the stick was quickly tied to the rope while JonBenet was unconscious. I think the murderer needed the extra leverage to strangle her until she died. I think the wrist could have been staging like the duct tape.

I once did a lot of research on strangulation, it takes much longer and is far more difficult than most imagine. Remember Dennis Raders comments on the subject?

Linda7NJ,

But the victim was a little 45-pound girl. A man wouldn't have needed additional leverage to strangle her. The average man could have wrung her neck like a chicken, using just his bare hands. Only an older adult with greatly diminished hand strength or another child would have needed the extra leverage. Hmmm.

BlueCrab

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

But the victim was a little 45-pound girl. A man wouldn't have needed additional leverage to strangle her. The average man could have wrung her neck like a chicken, using just his bare hands. Only an older adult with greatly diminished hand strength or another child would have needed the extra leverage. Hmmm.

BlueCrab

Exactly!

 

[Jayelles]

Elsewhere, a poster has voiced the opinion that Patsy neglected Burke after Jonbenet's murder. This is denied by Ramsey supporters.

However, the fact is that in their book DOI, Patsy describes sending out to stores for various outfits for her try for the funeral. She describes choosing an outfit which was inspired by the one Jackie Onassis wwore at Kennedy's funeral and she described how John told her she was beautiful. Choosing her outfit and presenting herself as a Jackie-O like figure at the funeral are details which evidently stand out in her mind.

Yet Burke wore clothes which were way too small for him for the funeral! No-body took time to make sure that Burke was properly turned out. The Ramseys even commented on it later (although I cannot find that quote).

So there is evidence that Patsy was focusing upon herself and her appearance at a time when Burke needed her.

Now it could be that another person had told the Ramseys to get themselves ready and that THEY would see to Burke. This person may not have had a clue about dressing a child (my husband doesn't and will select clothes which don't match or fit!).

If the Ramseys were able to comment later about Burke's dishevelled appearance - why did his appearance not strike them as unsuitable at the time? Did they not look at their son?

 

[narlacat]

I don't remember Burke's clothes not fitting, I thought the shirt he had on looked a bit big if anything.
Given the circumstances, it's no small wonder the Ramsey's were not concerned with how Burke presented.
The Ramsey's were too busy with the funeral to care about Burke or what he looked like, their only concerns were about how THEY presented and how THEY were going to be perceived by the public.

 

[rashomon]

Linda7NJ,

But the victim was a little 45-pound girl. A man wouldn't have needed additional leverage to strangle her. The average man could have wrung her neck like a chicken, using just his bare hands. Only an older adult with greatly diminished hand strength or another child would have needed the extra leverage. Hmmm.

BlueCrab

Which is exactly why I think it was staged: to make it look like a bizarre sex crime.

 

[UKGuy]

Jayelles,

This is curious, since you would expect a wealthy family to suit and boot Burke for a public funeral at which they knew the media may be present. Particularly if they went to great lengths to appear well dressed.

Are you suggesting this is indirect evidence that Patsy habitually negelected Burke.

As a counterpoint, if Burke had been involved in the death of JonBenet, then you would think that John and Patsy's public focus would be on Burke, making sure nothing leaked into the public domain?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Which is exactly why I think it was staged: to make it look like a bizarre sex crime.

I don't think that part was staged as she was alive when she was strangled

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think that part was staged as she was alive when she was strangled

Linda7NJ,
BlueCrab already suggested this:

I retract my statement about the ligature being constructed ahead of time. The knot on the stick had to have been made in place on JonBenet -- but why? Since she was probably already dead by that time, what use would the stick have? The stick appears to have been staging.

and
JonBenet's hair was so tightly embedded in the knotting that the Coroner Dr. John Meyer, had to cut her hair to remove the cord. Also JonBenet's gold chain and cross were tangled in the ligature.

JonBenet can still be garrotted, Luca Brasi style, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote, and the paintbrush handle added post mortem, either to mask that it was used to sexually assault JonBenet, or simply ad-hoc staging, and the forensic evidence supports this view.

To employ the staged evidence for other theories is exactly what the person who staged the wine-cellar presentation hoped people would do!




.

 

[rashomon]

I don't think that part was staged as she was alive when she was strangled

But suppose she was in a coma from the blow struck to her head, and the person who delivered the blow realized that he had injured her so heavily that she was probably going to die, or stay at least permanently brain-damaged from the injury.
The garotte staging could have been inflicted then, while she was already unconscious and possibly nearing death.

 

[trixie]

Jayelles,

This is curious, since you would expect a wealthy family to suit and boot Burke for a public funeral at which they knew the media may be present. Particularly if they went to great lengths to appear well dressed.

Are you suggesting this is indirect evidence that Patsy habitually negelected Burke.

As a counterpoint, if Burke had been involved in the death of JonBenet, then you would think that John and Patsy's public focus would be on Burke, making sure nothing leaked into the public domain?

Yes, Patsy just had to look like Jackie Kennedy with the veil specially sewn on her hat and department stores sent over dresses for her to pick from. But look at Burke. Clothes don't fit and shirt is untucked. Patsy took care of Patsy, didn't she? And she always will, IMO.

 

[aussiesheila]

Linda7NJ,

You got me in regard to the hair entangled in the knot on the stick. I just studied the crime scene photo of the knot again and you're right. JonBenet's hair is definitely imbedded in the knot.

I retract my statement about the ligature being constructed ahead of time. The knot on the stick had to have been made in place on JonBenet -- but why? Since she was probably already dead by that time, what use would the stick have? The stick appears to have been staging.

The wrist ligature is easier to explain. Ligatures are like slip knots. If JonBenet's body weight was pulling on the ligature it would have made the ligature tight. When the body weight was removed from the ligature it automatically loosened the ligature. John said the wrist ligature was tight and hard to remove -- which meant that JonBenet's body weight was likely keeping the ligature tight. It suggests JonBenet was strung up somehow and John cut her down.

Once the pressure from the wrist ligature was removed, the ligature loosened and fell off one wrist and almost fell off the other wrist. (The wrists had been bound together with one ligature.)

BlueCrab

My understanding is that when the body was found there was a ligature around only the right wrist which I always wondered what the purpose of that would be. I have also always wondered what position JonBenet would have been held in for the sexual abuse. Now I am hearing you say there was a ligature around each wrist but that one had fallen off and that JonBenet had likely been strung up somehow. That all sounds very logical to me. Do you know if they found another wrist ligature anywhere? If there had been a ligature around each wrist and JonBenet had been strung up by the wrists to something, what do you imagine it would have been? Were there any beams or hooks on the ceiling in the basement? I don't expect you to know the answers BlueCrab but you must have some ideas. I was wondering if they (your perpetrators or mine) could have had a portable device that clipped onto overhead doorframes like the ones I have seen used for baby swing chairs.

 

[aussiesheila]

capps,

DNA-X was mentioned by Chief Mark Beckner during a deposition in the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit. He said DNA-X was not on the body nor her clothing. That's all we know. My guess is it was on the wooden shards found on the basement floor, which in turn had been whittled off the end of the stick attached to the ligature device around the neck.

The fingerprint information on the spoon and waterglass containing the tea bag has never been made public. But due to the stickiness of pineapple, there were likely prints on the spoon and waterglass. My guess is they contained the prints of JonBenet and the perp.

BlueCrab

That is so mean of them not to release the information on where the additional DNA was found.

But if they have some additional DNA then the case still has a chance of being solved. Can LA in the US ask anyone for their DNA? I don't suppose they can. So LA can only test the DNA against people who have been detained for law offences.

While the investigation was in it's early stages BPD did collect some DNA samples which presumably they checked against the DNA under JonBenet's fingernails and from her panties. I think the DNA under her fingernails must have been skin from the person she scratched before she had her hands tied. The DNA on the panties was from blood wasn't it? So how would perpetrator blood get on her pants? Perhaps JonBenet bit someone's finger as he tried to put the ligature around her neck? Then perhaps the blood from his finger came off on her panties as he tried to pull them off.

Whose DNA did BPD collect in those early stages?

These are the only people I know for sure had their DNA taken -
John Ramsey, Burke Ramsey, John Andrew Ramsey

I think these people also but I am not sure -
FW, PW, BMcR, JMcR

What about these people, did they ever have DNA samples taken? I have a feeling that they did not -
DP, CG, CW, JB, FB, GM

 

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

This is curious, since you would expect a wealthy family to suit and boot Burke for a public funeral at which they knew the media may be present. Particularly if they went to great lengths to appear well dressed.

Are you suggesting this is indirect evidence that Patsy habitually negelected Burke.

As a counterpoint, if Burke had been involved in the death of JonBenet, then you would think that John and Patsy's public focus would be on Burke, making sure nothing leaked into the public domain?

No, I don't think there is any evidence that Patsy neglected Burke generally or habitually. However it is clear that he wasn't on their minds prior to the funeral (which may be understandable - I don't know). This refutes RST claims to the contrary.

(I don't think the Ramseys killed jonbenet and I think they brought a lot of their own post-murder troubles upon themselves. I also think the RST are a group of people who have helped to demonise the Ramsey by supporting them in such an obviously biased and blinkered way).

 

[UKGuy]

No, I don't think there is any evidence that Patsy neglected Burke generally or habitually. However it is clear that he wasn't on their minds prior to the funeral (which may be understandable - I don't know). This refutes RST claims to the contrary.

(I don't think the Ramseys killed jonbenet and I think they brought a lot of their own post-murder troubles upon themselves. I also think the RST are a group of people who have helped to demonise the Ramsey by supporting them in such an obviously biased and blinkered way).

Jayelles,

I tend to agree with you regarding the Ramseys's incuring their own own post-murder troubles upon themselves, obviously if a Ramsey did not murder JonBenet, then someone who was very familiar with the house and its layout did.

Do you think an intruder did it?



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