Serological Reports (blood)

[static]

I am looking to for positive semen test, what page on the report was it? I see nothing saying there was semen found.

 

[debbie0604]

Hi Debbie!
Could you look here: http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/12148-12200.pdf

on p. 12156

On the chart it lists a in the column under semen labeled "Acid Phos" so this is what we are questioning. It was found on a blanket at the remains scene so might not even be related to Caylee.

Acid phosphatase was tested on the blanket but I didn't see any detection of semen on the report. Acid phos can be present in semen, however, it can also be present in vaginal fluids as well. Hope this helps.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Acid phosphatase was tested on the blanket but I didn't see any detection of semen on the report. Acid phos can be present in semen, however, it can also be present in vaginal fluids as well. Hope this helps.

Yes, that does help. Thank you for the definition as I did not know what it was. Does the "" on tested item #1 indicate the presence of acid phosphatase? If so, I guess you are saying it can not be determined to be semen without a positive result in one of the other columns? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to understand.

 

[faefrost]

Does anyone here think that KC would have had the class or discretion to NOT "get busy" on objects of Caylee's beding, blankets etc? I think she would use whatever was available to keep her rump off of the cold pontiac car hood when parked behind fusion at 3am.

 

[debbie0604]

Yes, that does help. Thank you for the definition as I did not know what it was. Does the "" on tested item #1 indicate the presence of acid phosphatase? If so, I guess you are saying it can not be determined to be semen without a positive result in one of the other columns? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to understand.

The fact that there is neither "" nor "NEG" underneath SEMEN indicates that there was NO semen indicated on the blanket. Had there been semen on the blanket there would have been "" underneath SEMEN and then there would have been remarks about it indicated on the report. :winko: That's how I interpret the report. Also, it tested positive for acid phos.

 

[magic-cat]

Knowing Casey, she could have USED the blanket to clean up after sex with whomever if it was laying there handy, you know? It is also very possible that she SAVED semen in a condom and intentionally squeezed it out onto the blanket and onto Caylee's clothing to make it APPEAR as if she had been molested? There are plenty of scenarios whereby semen could have come into contact with these items. I wonder why Cindy did not tell us THIS blanlet was missing from the house also?

 

[magic-cat]

The fact that there is neither "" nor "NEG" underneath SEMEN indicates that there was NO semen indicated on the blanket. Had there been semen on the blanket there would have been "" underneath SEMEN and then there would have been remarks about it indicated on the report. :winko: That's how I interpret the report. Also, it tested positive for acid phos.

The mysery of the semen is solved! Thank you.:blushing:

 

[Dear Prudence]

The fact that there is neither "" nor "NEG" underneath SEMEN indicates that there was NO semen indicated on the blanket. Had there been semen on the blanket there would have been "" underneath SEMEN and then there would have been remarks about it indicated on the report. :winko: That's how I interpret the report. Also, it tested positive for acid phos.

Sorry, but I am still confused. Are you referring to the "sperm cells" column as it has neither or NEG? There is no column "SEMEN" because it is the heading over 3 columns which are called "acid phos" "sperm cells" and "p30." I was thinking those 3 things are components or attributes of semen that they test for. Do all 3 need to be positive in order to confirm the presence of semen?

The reason I am asking so much is because the "Blood" section also has multiple (2) columns. And on several charts the column labeled "Pheno" is while the column labeled "Hemo" is blank. So, I have the same question as above - Do both columns need a positive result to confirm the presence of blood?

Maybe this has already been answered in the thread but it went right over my head. If so, I apologize. I was always terrible at science in school.

 

[christee]

Sorry, but I am still confused. Are you referring to the "sperm cells" column as it has neither or NEG? There is no column "SEMEN" because it is the heading over 3 columns which are called "acid phos" "sperm cells" and "p30." I was thinking those 3 things are components or attributes of semen that they test for. Do all 3 need to be positive in order to confirm the presence of semen?

The reason I am asking so much is because the "Blood" section also has multiple (2) columns. And on several charts the column labeled "Pheno" is while the column labeled "Hemo" is blank. So, I have the same question as above - Do both columns need a positive result to confirm the presence of blood?

Maybe this has already been answered in the thread but it went right over my head. If so, I apologize. I was always terrible at science in school.

I'm not positive but I believe Acid Phosphatase can be produced by other parts of the body. The result for acid phosphatase may mean that a stain on the blanket "flouresced" when an ALS was used.

 

[panama]

<some respectful snipping >

Sorry, but I am still confused. Are you referring to the "sperm cells" column as it has neither or NEG? There is no column "SEMEN" because it is the heading over 3 columns which are called "acid phos" "sperm cells" and "p30."I was thinking those 3 things are components or attributes of semen that they test for. Do all 3 need to be positive in order to confirm the presence of semen?

The reason I am asking so much is because the "Blood" section also has multiple (2) columns. And on several charts the column labeled "Pheno" is while the column labeled "Hemo" is blank. So, I have the same question as above - Do both columns need a positive result to confirm the presence of blood?

The bolded part is correct -- those column headings are components of blood (pheno, hemo) and of semen (acid phos = acid phosphatase, sperm cells, p50 = prostate specific antigen).

Some spots are blank, I guess because they didn't or couldn't test for those things.

In terms of /NEG for blood or semen: If all three semen-columns were positive, you could say that it's highly likely that there was semen. But keep in mind that semen can be sperm-free (e.g., post-vastectomy), so all three aren't necessary for semen.... And even if all three were present, you couldn't say for certain that there was semen -- maybe some isolated sperm from a lab was deposited along with some acid phos and p30. (unlikely, but possible.) Same kind of thing goes for blood. For example, you can imagine a situation where maybe there was blood on something, but some blood components degraded or otherwise diminished with time. So all you can really say is that the presence of all components is consistent with semen/blood, or means the presence is likely. (There are probably conventions about when you're allowed to make declarations like "there was blood" or "there was semen," though.)

As far as the meanings of "pheno" and "hemo"...

I assume hemo refers to hemoglobin.

In terms of "pheno" -- I googled for this a lot in relation to forensic testing for the presence of blood, and I found nothing. My theory is that "pheno" refers to the phenotypic elements of blood. These are the antibodies and antigens that differ based on your blood type. (When we talk about Blood type (A, B, O, etc.), we're really talking about blood phenotype.)

I'm not saying that they're testing for blood type or anything -- just that they're looking for the presence of the things that determine your blood type.

I'm not completely sure, but it's my best guess (as a science person).

 

[debbie0604]

Sorry, but I am still confused. Are you referring to the "sperm cells" column as it has neither or NEG? There is no column "SEMEN" because it is the heading over 3 columns which are called "acid phos" "sperm cells" and "p30." I was thinking those 3 things are components or attributes of semen that they test for. Do all 3 need to be positive in order to confirm the presence of semen?

The reason I am asking so much is because the "Blood" section also has multiple (2) columns. And on several charts the column labeled "Pheno" is while the column labeled "Hemo" is blank. So, I have the same question as above - Do both columns need a positive result to confirm the presence of blood?

Maybe this has already been answered in the thread but it went right over my head. If so, I apologize. I was always terrible at science in school.

No problem... you're not asking too many questions... these reports can be confusing. The way I interpret the report is that in the column that states "Semen", and then under that "sperm cells" (you are correct, I didn't clarify that before), there is no or NEG in that column. If the blanket had been tested for sperm cells, there would be a value in the column indicating either or NEG or QNS (quantity not sufficient) and then there would be remarks indicating such on the report.

I think what is confusing is that acid phos is usually tested for the presence of sperm, however, tissues other than the prostate gland can have small amounts of acid phos such as bone, liver, spleen, kidney, red blood cells, and platelets. Damage to these tissues can cause a moderate increase of acid phos.

Edited to add: Also, you are correct regarding that the blanket tested positive for pheno, and the column is blank for hemo. That means that the blanket was not tested for hemo, as there is no value in the column underneath hemo, and no remarks are made indicating such on the report. I hope this helps.

 

[missyjane77]

In terms of "pheno" -- I googled for this a lot in relation to forensic testing for the presence of blood, and I found nothing. My theory is that "pheno" refers to the phenotypic elements of blood. These are the antibodies and antigens that differ based on your blood type. (When we talk about Blood type (A, B, O, etc.), we're really talking about blood phenotype.)

I'm not saying that they're testing for blood type or anything -- just that they're looking for the presence of the things that determine your blood type.

I'm not completely sure, but it's my best guess (as a science person).

Perhaps, but I don't think it makes sense to just have "" and "NEG" under the "PHENO" column. If they were testing for blood types, I would think they'd put the actual blood type down so they have more accurate results. Unless we find someone who does actual forensic testing, we may never know until trial (when it's explained to the jury).

 

[butwhatif?]

Knowing Casey, she could have USED the blanket to clean up after sex with whomever if it was laying there handy, you know? It is also very possible that she SAVED semen in a condom and intentionally squeezed it out onto the blanket and onto Caylee's clothing to make it APPEAR as if she had been molested? There are plenty of scenarios whereby semen could have come into contact with these items. I wonder why Cindy did not tell us THIS blanlet was missing from the house also?

Maybe I'm reading the docs wrong but I thought this was a blanket found at the scene, and they note that they are unsure if it's connected to the case. I don't believe it was a known blanket belonging to Caylee.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, folks. I'm getting confused by all the different evidence numbers.:banghead:
ETA: Its listed as item 32 Q-110 in this reference-

One miscellaneous blanket...Analyst note: TP/ORA is uncertain as to whether or not this blanket is related to the case, however, given that Caylee was wrapped/concealed by other blankets, a laundry bag, and garbage bags, this blanket, which was found at the crime scene, is included for similar processing.

Why can't they just have the same evidence number for each item consistantly? Why do the different agencies have their own numbering system? Its doing my head in!

ETA 2 ...So in serological evidence list, Pooh blanket is Q-82 and other blanket found at scene with pink and purple flowers is Q103

 

[panama]

<respectful snipping>

Perhaps, but I don't think it makes sense to just have "" and "NEG" under the "PHENO" column. If they were testing for blood types, I would think they'd put the actual blood type down so they have more accurate results.

Right. I'm saying that testing for "pheno" could mean that they tested for the presence of phenotypic elements of blood (i.e., any antibodies/antigens at all). I'm not saying that they checked for which type of antibodies and/or antigens were present. It seems feasible that you need a better quality sample to do this, but that the sample they had could be tested for general antibodies/antigens.

But, I hear you. It definitely seems like a weird way to refer to antigens/antibodies. I just, for the life of me, can't think of what else pheno could possibly mean if it's a component of blood.

But maybe it's not actually a component of blood.

The reason I assumed the subheadings under "Blood" were components of blood is because

1. The three things under the "Semen" heading are certainly components of semen.
2. "Hemo" sounds like a known component of blood, and "pheno" sounds like a (perhaps funny way to reference) known component of blood.
3. There are lines under "Remarks" that say:

Page 12,153
Each piece was spot tested for pheno and resulted postive. No individual stains were isolated.

Page 12,154
~9" x 9" region of dirt like staining and debris tested positive for pheno located to the right of the hole. No individual stain could be isolated.

At some point I thought maybe pheno/hemo were testing methods, but I figured the language in above remarks ruled this out. Maybe I figured wrong, though. Because...

Apparently there's something called a "hemochromogen test." There's also something called a "phenolphthalein test." [a couple of links: weblink pdflink]. Anyway, both of these tests are used to detect the presence of blood. Again the language "tested (positive) for pheno" seems odd if pheno is a kind of test. Unless what they actually mean is "tested positive for pheno reactivity." That would make some sense.

Lastly, I was searching through the document release again, and I came across the following on page 11,991. (That page is in the "Part 27" document here.)

(from page 11,991)

Results of Examinations:
A chemical test for the possible presence of blood was positive on
specimens Q81, Q82, Q84, Q103, Q248.1, Q248.2, Q248.3, and Q248.4; however, the presence of blood was not confirmed.

Specimens Q80, Q240.1, Q242, Q244, Q245, Q248, Q294, Q297 through
Q308 were examined for the presence of blood; however, none was detected.

Specimens Q80, Q81, Q82, and Q103 were examined for the presence of
semen; however, none was detected.

This is consistent with the results in the table that we've been discussing, I believe. (Assuming that only finding a for pheno corresponds to "the possible presence of blood was positive".)

 

[USARDOG]

Don't know if Alk Phos is found in semen, but it is found in interstitial fluid, and blood. Eleveated levels of Alk Phos indiacate rapid bone growth.

Can't think of any component of blood called "Pheno." Only Pheno I can think of is Phenotype.

 

[missyjane77]

Apparently there's something called a "hemochromogen test." There's also something called a "phenolphthalein test." [a couple of links: weblink pdflink]. Anyway, both of these tests are used to detect the presence of blood. Again the language "tested (positive) for pheno" seems odd if pheno is a kind of test. Unless what they actually mean is "tested positive for pheno reactivity." That would make some sense.

I think that makes perfect sense. They would want to confirm their findings, right? So perhaps they used 2 different tests that detect blood. Hmmm...

 

[TakeNote]

<respectful snipping>


Right. I'm saying that testing for "pheno" could mean that they tested for the presence of phenotypic elements of blood (i.e., any antibodies/antigens at all). I'm not saying that they checked for which type of antibodies and/or antigens were present. It seems feasible that you need a better quality sample to do this, but that the sample they had could be tested for general antibodies/antigens.

But, I hear you. It definitely seems like a weird way to refer to antigens/antibodies. I just, for the life of me, can't think of what else pheno could possibly mean if it's a component of blood.

But maybe it's not actually a component of blood.

The reason I assumed the subheadings under "Blood" were components of blood is because

1. The three things under the "Semen" heading are certainly components of semen.
2. "Hemo" sounds like a known component of blood, and "pheno" sounds like a (perhaps funny way to reference) known component of blood.
3. There are lines under "Remarks" that say:

At some point I thought maybe pheno/hemo were testing methods, but I figured the language in above remarks ruled this out. Maybe I figured wrong, though. Because...

Apparently there's something called a "hemochromogen test." There's also something called a "phenolphthalein test." [a couple of links: weblink pdflink]. Anyway, both of these tests are used to detect the presence of blood. Again the language "tested (positive) for pheno" seems odd if pheno is a kind of test. Unless what they actually mean is "tested positive for pheno reactivity." That would make some sense.

Lastly, I was searching through the document release again, and I came across the following on page 11,991. (That page is in the "Part 27" document here.)



This is consistent with the results in the table that we've been discussing, I believe. (Assuming that only finding a for pheno corresponds to "the possible presence of blood was positive".)

Lastly, I was searching through the document release again, and I came across the following on page 11,991. (That page is in the "Part 27" document here.)


Quote:
(from page 11,991)

Results of Examinations:
A chemical test for the possible presence of blood was positive on
specimens

items from medical examiner office
Q81, clothing (1B111, E4381289)
Q82, blanket (1B110, E4381288)
Q84, Laundry bag (1B115, E4381293)

Items from scene
Q103, blanket (H-60493, item 32, Q110)

additional item from the vehicle (Q248-Q248.4)
Q248.1, napkins (J-60085, item 1, Q217)
Q248.2, "
Q248.3, "
Q248.4;"
however, the presence of blood was not confirmed.

Specimens Q80, Q240.1, Q242, Q244, Q245, Q248, Q294, Q297 through
Q308 were examined for the presence of blood; however, none was detected.

Specimens Q80, Q81, Q82, and Q103 were examined for the presence of
semen; however, none was detected

all the bolded was added by me.....

from what im reading the

blanket Q82 is the pooh blanket since it came from the medical ex office
A chemical test for the possible presence of blood was positive on the specimen along with clothing, laundery bag from the medical office and napkins from the car

item from scene Q103 second blanket also was chemical test for the possible presence of blood was

but the report said however, the presence of blood was not confirmed.

 

[cecybeans]

Sorry to ask this, but would a decomposing body create a positive blood result? Is the test for just to register hemoglobin or for the liquids in the blood? I don't know nuthin' bout blood...

 

[TakeNote]

cecybeans.....me either....i just wrote out what i did so that i can understand what all the Q's and numbers mean compared to the evidence.......:biggrin:

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

i posted this in another thread.. this is actually the one i wanted to post it in

i asked an expert friend about pheno and this is what i got

Blood chemistry is at two levels, the physical characteristics that sow blood was there such as the presence of hemoglobin, plasma and wbc/rbc, while the hemotype may not be adequate to determine blood type or any DNA / RNA characteristics.
22 minutes ago · Delete

Generally the presence of Pheno is not enough to say for certain that blood is present, there are other ways a body can secrete Pheno such as semen and acne.