Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[twocuriouscats]

Most of the time, I limit my examples to cases, I have some hope, people remember them. I mean, who the hell remembers the 3X murders, Harrison Graham or William "Freight Train" Guatney? I mean, people today pose as SK experts, who haven't even an idea who was Edmund Kemper III only because he was never mentioned by his name in a TV show.
Want to see a really crazy place? Look around the I-45 in Texas. Shore, Bell, Toole, Lucas, another half a dozen, they didn't even catch, Shuflin, Gribble, 120 cases more still open. All basically I-45 in the Houston and over to League City. Now, does Lake Sam Houston count as near to the interstate? If so, Corll parked 17 near to Shore's 6 and Corll's second dump site with 16 is near to some body an as of yet unidentified SK used to dispose of four. They would be so happy down there, to have only two or three SKs using up space and air.

Hi PB,
I cut my teeth on Kemper (my mum used to party at the Jury Room and he was there - she worked for the county and that's where the cops and lawyers gathered). Santa Cruz was a very scary place in the late 60's. I was just a baby of course lol!
As for Corill - that guy kinda takes the cake, right? Scary as **** - his daughter procured vics for him...and he was a real sadist.
So, you mention a site near his dumpsite that contains FOUR bodies. Could you please give more info? Tx!

 

[Mountain_Kat]

"sitting" as in being there ( locked in the bathroom). I would like to add, that, IMO, she didn't make handstands, tumbled or was hovering in the air.

I'm referring to my question about this. Are you saying that Shannan was locked in the bathroom while she was on the phone to 911, or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[fred&edna]

Slow it down a little, before it gets too far off the tracks. First thing, to flee to a remote place so my allegedly perceived killer can kill me in all peace appears to me as quite rational ... not! And even if Coletti wouldn't let her in the house, she would have been safer on his porch because Coletti and therefore a potential witness was there. So it would make sense to run to a place where my killer could murder we without curious eyes watching him ... not!
So in two instances, SG chose the irrational solution. The interesting detail is, from what was she fleeing? A rational being fleeing from a thread tries to avoid the threat, tries to reach an area where it is safe from the threat.
Now, MP, convicted criminal and for the sake of some theories buried as the evil per se, also he would be subject to the laws of physics. At least those. Means, he couldn't shrink his SUV, put it in his pocket and follow SG into the marsh. So after MP spoke with Coletti, MP drove off and the SUV was nowhere to be seen anymore. Assuming, it wasn't in MP's pant pockets, it was gone. So, if MP was the threat to begin with, the threat was gone. Still SG ran on. That is evidence enough, she wasn't fleeing from MP. But since there was nobody else around at this time, the only things, she could have fled from where the things in her head.

She was 24 years old, scared for her life and had already made her own call to 911 for help. The only rational thinking comes from what she can see... which is an OLD man on a porch and the quickly approaching much YOUNGER threat. Coletti may be a great guy (I have no idea) but to her he probably just looked like an OLD man (not a lot of protection) certainly not Walt Kowalski.

 

[mcme]

Your post made me look at this in a different way...I'm wondering...why would MP leave his money-maker?

This is my guess. In the dark, it's possible that just as MP said, he never even saw that there was a street past the mailboxes. He didn't see SG after he stopped and spoke with GC and figured she must have started walking back west on Oak Beach road. He went out the gate to get her but couldn't find her. Once he was outside of it with no way back in, he drove up and down a little, maybe even along the parkway. After a while, he saw the police arrive just as GC said they would and thought let them find her and she can worry about how she's getting home, or call him and he'll come get her. After the police part was over.

 

[MoonUnderfoot]

I was just reading a story, and this caught my attention... Read carefully!!!!!


"The official cause of death was heart failure--probably due to her exposure to the December cold in an unheated section of the hospital. She apparently locked herself in the ward as a game, hiding from hospital employees. Before she died she took off her clothes and folded them neatly nearby. "


*This is NOT from a LISK related story, I just thought the point was pretty well placed as to what someone might do when they are freezing!

 

[fred&edna]

I was just reading a story, and this caught my attention... Read carefully!!!!!


"The official cause of death was heart failure--probably due to her exposure to the December cold in an unheated section of the hospital. She apparently locked herself in the ward as a game, hiding from hospital employees. Before she died she took off her clothes and folded them neatly nearby. "


*This is NOT from a LISK related story, I just thought the point was pretty well placed as to what someone might do when they are freezing!

Margaret Schilling. She was a patient in an Ohio mental asylum.

 

[Tugela]

If you are running away from a threat (MP) and while you are asking for help you see the threat approaching (and you are outside exposed) you would run to the next safe haven...only to be ignored at the next two places where you plead for help. Chances are very high that the perceived threat did follow her along her run. It is more likely that she was hysterical and not delusional. There is absolutely no proof of that she was either irrational or delusional. GC may not have let her in. His story has varied and if SG was only allowed as far as his open door and his porch, she would have seen and heard MP's vehicle and knew she needed to keep running, hiding, knocking, pleading and repeating that effort three times before she was never to be seen again. MP is a liar and a convicted criminal and his word is definitely not to be taken as fact.

But Coletti is not. He has no reason to lie. And his description of her sounds like that of someone in a paranoid delusional state. Moreover, his description more or less is consistent with what MP and the others said, it is an independent account, so we have that description of her behaviour from at least two sources. That is the only evidence we have on that matter, anything else is speculation without any factual basis to support it.

 

[Tugela]

This is my guess. In the dark, it's possible that just as MP said, he never even saw that there was a street past the mailboxes. He didn't see SG after he stopped and spoke with GC and figured she must have started walking back west on Oak Beach road. He went out the gate to get her but couldn't find her. Once he was outside of it with no way back in, he drove up and down a little, maybe even along the parkway. After a while, he saw the police arrive just as GC said they would and thought let them find her and she can worry about how she's getting home, or call him and he'll come get her. After the police part was over.

I doubt he even stayed that long. He knew the police were likely on their way, both from SG's 911 call and from Coletti's comments, so as soon as he couldn't find her at that point he probably got out of Dodge ASAP and left her to deal with the mess herself.

I mean, the idea that he is going to stick around to hunt her out and kill her when he knew the cops could arrive at any moment is kind of absurd IMO.

I'm pretty sure that his sort would rather have to explain any allegation of threats to the cops than explain what he was doing with a dead body.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Your post made me look at this in a different way...I'm wondering...why would MP leave his money-maker?

I can only guess:

1.) Avoiding the police ... which implicates, he estimated the situation out of control enough to believe, Coletti actually had called 911 or he knew at that time about the call, SG made.

2.) Better to leave one and keep the rest than to get to jail because he pulled unwanted attention for that one. And I guess, SG wasn't his only client.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Hi PB,
I cut my teeth on Kemper (my mum used to party at the Jury Room and he was there - she worked for the county and that's where the cops and lawyers gathered). Santa Cruz was a very scary place in the late 60's. I was just a baby of course lol!
As for Corill - that guy kinda takes the cake, right? Scary as **** - his daughter procured vics for him...and he was a real sadist.
So, you mention a site near his dumpsite that contains FOUR bodies. Could you please give more info? Tx!

Not Corll's daughter, he had two teenage "assistants", Elmar Wayne Henley and David Brooks. The daughter line sounds to me as if David Ray Parker, the Toybox Killer, somehow popped into this chitchat. His daughter helped him to procure victims.
Anyway, there are not much infos out there. When Houston PD found, that they had slept out everything for about two years and almost half of the boys they labelled as runaways, appeared now in Corll's two dump sites (the boat shed and High Island/Lake Sam Houston), they made quickly a deal with Henley, pulled Brooks over the table and none of them was suddenly eligible for the death penalty as long as they kept their mouths shut about details. Then Houston PD stopped the search after 31 victims were found, arguing, there wouldn't be more. Which was a lie because in grave #30 another bone popped up that belonged to no other known victim.
Now, some years later, I think, it was two or three years, a dog found a bone washed out after a strong rain. Houston PD came out, found four bodies, about 20 yards from the outer grave of the Lake dump site. So what Houston PD did, was to remove the bodies, fill in the hole and run. No investigation, no nothing, as soon as the ME conformed those bodies were male, they booked them on Corll. Now, since 2008 or so, the Houston ME's office went ahead and tried to identify the last of Corll's victims and found those four bodies again. Don't ask me how. They found the bodies somehow in their own pathology. No idea what's going on their. Maybe only samples, who knows in Houston. Bottom line: Those boys were killed after Corll was already a while dead. But after that long time, no other trace is left and so this unsub joined the long list of SKs not caught due to police secrecy.
And on the trivia side: If you want a real gross SK, look up the Corpse Collector on my website. And have a booze at the ready.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I'm referring to my question about this. Are you saying that Shannan was locked in the bathroom while she was on the phone to 911, or am I misunderstanding you?

Humm, why didn't you ask that then? According to JB, SG had locked herself in the bath and started the phone call there till she came suddenly out and ran. Which makes a certain sense, most bathrooms can be locked from the inside.

 

[Peter Brendt]

She was 24 years old, scared for her life and had already made her own call to 911 for help. The only rational thinking comes from what she can see... which is an OLD man on a porch and the quickly approaching much YOUNGER threat. Coletti may be a great guy (I have no idea) but to her he probably just looked like an OLD man (not a lot of protection) certainly not Walt Kowalski.

Well, you can of course argue, that in your opinion, everyone smaller than Arnold Schwarzenegger 30 years ago or Chuck Norris, even more years ago was insufficient to counteract the threat MP allegedly posed. But that brings you in two problems:

1.) MP is not that giant. So, this obvious mis-estimation would be just one more sign, she was out off it as it was worded so nicely. The consequent disability to judge correctly acute real life situations is one of the hallmarks of paranoid behavior, especially those acute forms of it which are so often induced by drugs.

2.) As I pointed out earlier, since MP couldn't follow her much further than to Coletti's house (unless he left the SUV behind which would have been seen), she would under normal circumstances have stopped running at some point. She didn't. She continued right in the marsh. Which proves, it wasn't MP, she ran from. It wasn't anybody outside her head, she was running from. Because once she was alone out there, that was the only thing with her able to spur her on and on.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Margaret Schilling. She was a patient in an Ohio mental asylum.

So that is why she folded the cloths? Other cases of paradoxical undressing have often the cloths just thrown away. But just from curiosity, is paradoxical undressing now an acceptable option on this board or are we at the beginning of the next flame war?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I doubt he even stayed that long. He knew the police were likely on their way, both from SG's 911 call and from Coletti's comments, so as soon as he couldn't find her at that point he probably got out of Dodge ASAP and left her to deal with the mess herself.

I mean, the idea that he is going to stick around to hunt her out and kill her when he knew the cops could arrive at any moment is kind of absurd IMO.

I'm pretty sure that his sort would rather have to explain any allegation of threats to the cops than explain what he was doing with a dead body.

Well, of course, that idea is absurd. As absurd as the idea any of the persons, who knew, the police was on the way went and killed SG. Aside of the impossibility to follow her in the marsh kill her there, then shower and change the clothes before the police was there in the first place. But then, despite all physical impossibilities and the behavioral absurdity of this, that was the theory of the lynch CPH campaign for two years. And I doubt, you can lay that to rest even with logic, laws of physics and common sense on your side. So ... what to do?

 

[OnTheCase27]

With what you have been saying Peter you made me think of the posibility of synthetic over the counter drugs like bath salts. This is about the time people started learning about these synthetic drugs. And with the revaltions about how these drugs can induce psychosis I don't think it can be ruled out.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Humm, why didn't you ask that then? According to JB, SG had locked herself in the bath and started the phone call there till she came suddenly out and ran. Which makes a certain sense, most bathrooms can be locked from the inside.

I did ask that. Twice. But anyway...I don't recall any msm article where Brewer claims that Shannan called 911 while locked in the bathroom. I've read his account of her being in the bathroom and then emerging whacked out, but NEVER that she began the 911 call while she was locked in the bathroom. So, if you wouldn't mind, would you provide a link to your source for that information? Because it's a very important detail, if it's correct.

Thanks.

 

[ps149]

You're saying that she was locked in the bathroom when she made the 911 call?! I don't know where you are getting this stuff from, Peter. Am I not understanding you correctly?

This report says this:

Shannan reportedly became frantic, locking herself in the bathroom and making a 23-minute 911 call that has never been made public.

 

[ps149]

Okay it seems that MP may be the one who is causing the confusion.

I found this post by Seaslug;

Excuse me Mister Michael-Keep-Changing-My-Story-Pak, did you or did you not just state on international television on the A&E special that you knew from SG's answer to your secret code question you knew that she WAS NOT in a drug-induced panic that night???

Now you are saying she was?

Let's not forget that you once stated that you were parked outside the gate playing poker on your phone while waiting for SG but then in the A&E special you stated that you were parked outside JB's house sleeping in your vehicle the entire time?

Where were you really?

Then you state that SG asked you to go to CVS to purchase playing cards & personal lubricant but ever since stating that you seemed to have forgotten to ever mention those details again?

Did you go or not? Did she even ask you to go or not?

In some interviews you state that JB called you on the phone to come back and help him get her out of his house but on A&E you stated that JB came outside to get you out of your trucks.

Which is it?

In some interviews you also state that when you went into the house, SG was in the kitchen panicking. In other interviews you state that she locked herself in his bathroom and in other interviews you state that she was hiding behind his couch on her cell phone with 911 when you entered the house. Now on the A&E special you state that when you entered the house JB had his arms around her like he "was trying to lift her out of his house".

When you did the A&E interview, did you forget that you already told us three other versions of that moment when you entered JB's house?

Sorry MP, but the more LIES you tell, the more we have to start to consider that you know what happened to SG. After all, according to the 911 call she NAMED the person who was trying to kill her and "it's someone she knew". And the 911 call ends with SG getting pulled into an SUV!!!!

When you were driving out of Oak Beach that night, did you pull over to the side of Anchor Way to remove all of SG's belongings from your truck and throw them into the wetlands?

 

[fred&edna]

So that is why she folded the cloths? Other cases of paradoxical undressing have often the cloths just thrown away. But just from curiosity, is paradoxical undressing now an acceptable option on this board or are we at the beginning of the next flame war?[/QUOTE


I have no idea why Margaret Schilling folded her clothes. I was actually just providing some background info as it was not provided in the original post.

Maybe PU is an acceptable option for other members, but not for me.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

This report says this:

"Shannan reportedly became frantic, locking herself in the bathroom and making a 23-minute 911 call that has never been made public".
http://archive.longislandpress.com/...ng-island-serial-killer-case-two-years-later/

This is the first time I have ever seen ANY news article that implies that Shannan called 911 while locked in the bathroom. And I have read so many msm accounts of that night, I can't even begin to count them.
I'm inclined to believe that this article, in general, and this sentence specifically, is simply poorly written. I think this sentence runs several facts together and inadvertantly makes them appear to be occurring simultaneously.

Let's stop and take a look at the facts.
This is Brewer's account (I'm only linking one article here, but there are many others that support this account):

In December, Brewer declined to elaborate on his time with Gilbert, except to say he didn't have sexual contact with her. He said he told her to leave after she demanded money. "Then she started getting all weird," Brewer said.

She went to the bathroom for some time and emerged acting erratically. "She was starting to freak out," he said.

Brewer went outside to Pak, asking for help in getting her to leave.

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

No mention of Shannan calling 911 while locked in the bathroom. To the best of my knowledge, Brewer's version of the events of that night have always been consistent. Not saying they are true, mind you, merely that they are consistent.