Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[Mountain_Kat]

Okay it seems that MP may be the one who is causing the confusion.

I found this post by Seaslug;

This is an excellent post by Seaslug. Unfortunately, it lacks links to support what he's saying. So for the purpose of getting our facts straight, I hope Seaslug won't mind if I provide links.

Pak version # 1: When he came into the house, Shannan was standing near the kitchen, on her cell phone, talking to 911 dispatcher.
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

Pak version #2: When he came into the house, Shannan was clothed and standing in the living room, on the phone to 911.
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/12/boyfriend_and_the_driver_of_sh.html

Pak version #3: When he came into the house, Brewer was holding Shannan, until she broke free and ran behind the couch, where she crouched and called 911.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

I can't find any msm account where either Pak or Brewer claim that Shannan was locked in the bathroom when she was on the phone to 911. If anyone else can find that, please provide a link to it. Otherwise, I'm going to say that it's simply false information, and shouldn't be represented as fact.

 

[Just K]

SG called 911.
SG ran away from JB.
SG ran away from MP.
SG ran to GC's door.
GC called 911.
As MP approached the very old man's house, SG ran again.
She ran to BB's and she was not let in.
She ran to EC's and was not let in.
She pleaded for help and/or knocked on all of those doors. She was scared and likely hysterical and possibly drugged.
SG disappears.
No one has been quoted as saying that they ACTUALLY SAW SG enter the brush.

This is all we really know...

 

[Mountain_Kat]

SG called 911.
SG ran away from JB.
SG ran away from MP.
SG ran to GC's door.
GC called 911.
As MP approached the very old man's house, SG ran again.
She ran to BB's and she was not let in.
She ran to EC's and was not let in.
She pleaded for help and/or knocked on all of those doors. She was scared and likely hysterical and possibly drugged.
SG disappears.
No one has been quoted as saying that they ACTUALLY SAW SG enter the brush.

This is all we really know...

BBM

Thank you! We don't have the first clue how Shannan's body ended up in that marsh, so to state that she ran into the marsh, as if it were an established fact, is incredibly misleading, imo.

I'm getting so tired of having to ask people to provide links to the information they post here. It has frustrated me to the point where I'm about to give up on this thread altogether. Rumor, gossip, asssumptions, etc. all get tossed around as if they have any basis in fact, and no-one ever bothers to question, or ask for links to sources. No wonder so many people can't keep the facts straight.

 

[WINDSOR]

Slow it down a little, before it gets too far off the tracks. First thing, to flee to a remote place so my allegedly perceived killer can kill me in all peace appears to me as quite rational ... not! And even if Coletti wouldn't let her in the house, she would have been safer on his porch because Coletti and therefore a potential witness was there. So it would make sense to run to a place where my killer could murder we without curious eyes watching him ... not!
So in two instances, SG chose the irrational solution. The interesting detail is, from what was she fleeing? A rational being fleeing from a thread tries to avoid the threat, tries to reach an area where it is safe from the threat.
Now, MP, convicted criminal and for the sake of some theories buried as the evil per se, also he would be subject to the laws of physics. At least those. Means, he couldn't shrink his SUV, put it in his pocket and follow SG into the marsh. So after MP spoke with Coletti, MP drove off and the SUV was nowhere to be seen anymore. Assuming, it wasn't in MP's pant pockets, it was gone. So, if MP was the threat to begin with, the threat was gone. Still SG ran on. That is evidence enough, she wasn't fleeing from MP. But since there was nobody else around at this time, the only things, she could have fled from where the things in her head.

The fact that MP drove-off does not eliminate him as a threat. SG left GC's home and MP drove -off....after her? ........to follow her?..........to chase her?......to catch her?

The fact that GC said MP drove off does not mean he left Oak beach directly. That is not what GC said.

Secondly how was SG, after she left GC's home, to know MP was not following her.

MOO

 

[Theforeigner]

BBM

Thank you! We don't have the first clue how Shannan's body ended up in that marsh, so to state that she ran into the marsh, as if it were an established fact, is incredibly misleading, imo.

I'm getting so tired of having to ask people to provide links to the information they post here. It has frustrated me to the point where I'm about to give up on this thread altogether. Rumor, gossip, asssumptions, etc. all get tossed around as if they have any basis in fact, and no-one ever bothers to question, or ask for links to sources. No wonder so many people can't keep the facts straight.

I couldn´t agree more, THANK YOU :great: for putting that frustration into words, a frustration that I for sure, and hopefully many others, share with you.

In order to try to contribute to solving this case, keeping the facts straight is an ABSOLUT MUST!
I mean this is not some video game to play when you are bored and want to kill some time, this is a dead serious murdercase involving REAL murder victims and REAL relatives and friends left behind in deep agony and sorrow.

So every single WS member working this case, I plead with youlease: ;

PLEASE do whatever you can to keep the facts straight.
Backup your claims whith quotes and link .
And if you post somthing you belive, unlike know , please clarify that by adding IMO =(In my opinion) or somthing to that effect.
And if you post a theorie of yours, or somone elses theorie, please make that clear as well.
And if you post a/or about a rumor, please make that clear as well by posting it in the rumor thread.

Thank you in advance

TF

 

[Samantha Spade]

I have been guilty of that myself (not providing links) and I understand your frustration. I will do my best to comply with your very reasonable request from now on. I appreciate how hard you guys work and how detailed and supported your research is.

 

[Peter Brendt]

So that is why she folded the cloths? Other cases of paradoxical undressing have often the cloths just thrown away. But just from curiosity, is paradoxical undressing now an acceptable option on this board or are we at the beginning of the next flame war?[/QUOTE


I have no idea why Margaret Schilling folded her clothes. I was actually just providing some background info as it was not provided in the original post.

Maybe PU is an acceptable option for other members, but not for me.

Sorry, sometimes, my mind picks up the smallest details and tries to figure why. I guess, it comes with the territory.

 

[Peter Brendt]

This is an excellent post by Seaslug. Unfortunately, it lacks links to support what he's saying. So for the purpose of getting our facts straight, I hope Seaslug won't mind if I provide links.

Pak version # 1: When he came into the house, Shannan was standing near the kitchen, on her cell phone, talking to 911 dispatcher.
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

Pak version #2: When he came into the house, Shannan was clothed and standing in the living room, on the phone to 911.
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/12/boyfriend_and_the_driver_of_sh.html

Pak version #3: When he came into the house, Brewer was holding Shannan, until she broke free and ran behind the couch, where she crouched and called 911.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

I can't find any msm account where either Pak or Brewer claim that Shannan was locked in the bathroom when she was on the phone to 911. If anyone else can find that, please provide a link to it. Otherwise, I'm going to say that it's simply false information, and shouldn't be represented as fact.

Appears, there are not many links left. PS149 linked the Long Island News article already, it appears http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214 is still on the web, I can't find the 48 Hours now, where JR talks about the phone call. There were more articles. And not all were just "bad written". But maybe, if you request links again in lets say two more years, they are all gone.

 

[MoonUnderfoot]

So that is why she folded the cloths? Other cases of paradoxical undressing have often the cloths just thrown away. But just from curiosity, is paradoxical undressing now an acceptable option on this board or are we at the beginning of the next flame war?

Paradoxical undressing

Twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss.[21][22]

Rescuers who are trained in mountain survival techniques are taught to expect this; however, some may assume incorrectly that urban victims of hypothermia have been subjected to a sexual assault.[23]

One explanation for the effect is a cold-induced malfunction of the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that regulates body temperature. Another explanation is that the muscles contracting peripheral blood vessels become exhausted (known as a loss of vasomotor tone) and relax, leading to a sudden surge of blood (and heat) to the extremities, fooling the person into feeling overheated.[23]​

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia"]Hypothermia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

No one said it was the answer, but again, let's not wear horse blinders, lets stay with an open mind... IT IS a possibility.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Paradoxical undressing

Twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss.[21][22]

Rescuers who are trained in mountain survival techniques are taught to expect this; however, some may assume incorrectly that urban victims of hypothermia have been subjected to a sexual assault.[23]

One explanation for the effect is a cold-induced malfunction of the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that regulates body temperature. Another explanation is that the muscles contracting peripheral blood vessels become exhausted (known as a loss of vasomotor tone) and relax, leading to a sudden surge of blood (and heat) to the extremities, fooling the person into feeling overheated.[23]​

Hypothermia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No one said it was the answer, but again, let's not wear horse blinders, lets stay with an open mind... IT IS a possibility.

Add to this the known effects of for example meth on the temperature control system of the body and you get a good 50/50 chance.

 

[bessie]

Appears, there are not many links left. PS149 linked the Long Island News article already, it appears http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214 is still on the web, I can't find the 48 Hours now, where JR talks about the phone call. There were more articles. And not all were just "bad written". But maybe, if you request links again in lets say two more years, they are all gone.

Something to keep in mind that might be helpful, member AmandaReckonwith maintains a comprehensive collection of related media going back to December 2010 in a Photobucket album. We can't copy and paste the images here, but we can post the image links.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

And some links can be found in the Media and News thread. If we're lucky, the posters snipped the key 10% of the articles.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[LINative13]

Something to keep in mind that might be helpful, member AmandaReckonwith maintains a comprehensive collection of related media going back to December 2010 in a Photobucket album. We can't copy and paste the images here, but we can post the image links.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

And some links can be found in the Media and News thread. If we're lucky, the posters snipped the key 10% of the articles.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Youre a sweetheart.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Something to keep in mind that might be helpful, member AmandaReckonwith maintains a comprehensive collection of related media going back to December 2010 in a Photobucket album. We can't copy and paste the images here, but we can post the image links.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

And some links can be found in the Media and News thread. If we're lucky, the posters snipped the key 10% of the articles.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Well, the posts that snipped too much were delted due to copyright reasons if I remember right. And some are only links of which a lot don't work anymore. So we should at least consider old posts referring to those articles as half-way credible since all LISK threads here re-warm the same stuff over and over anyway.

 

[fred&edna]

Paradoxical undressing


No one said it was the answer, but again, let's not wear horse blinders, lets stay with an open mind... IT IS a possibility.

Well, not so open that our brains fall out

 

[MoonUnderfoot]

Well, not so open that our brains fall out

Lets agree to disagree without being rude ok?

 

[MoonUnderfoot]

I don't understand why you are so blind as to not seeing that as a viable option. Can you explain to me then, why it is NOT in your eyes?

It's simple. The person is freezing... Nerves are misfiring, brain thoughts are confused and so forth. She very well may have taken her damn clothes off believing she was overheating. I don't see how this common sense, and proven factor is a definate NO to you.

 

[Just K]

Moon, I won't speak for others but on this topic, we spent endless time researching the conditions and 100s of posts deliberating those ideas. A few held to the belief that it was a possibility but the great majority of the comments agreed that given the temperature outside, the breaking daylight, the lack of rainfall/precipitation in the two to three weeks preceding May 1, 2010, it would be highly unlikely that after running through the neighborhood for at least 15 or 20 minutes that SG would be cold. People jog in less clothing in the winter and all across the mid-Atlantic coast. It wasn't cold that morning and by midday the temperature reached 80*. SG, if she ever entered the brushy area, would not have had enough time to start freezing before the sun rose a few minutes before 6:00 AM. IMHO, of course.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

Moon, I won't speak for others but on this topic, we spent endless time researching the conditions and 100s of posts deliberating those ideas. A few held to the belief that it was a possibility but the great majority of the comments agreed that given the temperature outside, the breaking daylight, the lack of rainfall/precipitation in the two to three weeks preceding May 1, 2010, it would be highly unlikely that after running through the neighborhood for at least 15 or 20 minutes that SG would be cold. People jog in less clothing in the winter and all across the mid-Atlantic coast. It wasn't cold that morning and by midday the temperature reached 80*. SG, if she ever entered the brushy area, would not have had enough time to start freezing before the sun rose a few minutes before 6:00 AM. IMHO, of course.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=179&month=5&year=2010&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

Rising and setting times for the Sun


Date Sunrise Sunset
May 1, 2010 5:55 AM 7:52 PM

the sun allegedly came up at 5:55...but you know....at least 45 minutes before the sun comes up
birds are chirping away and the sky is a soft golden glow...with the sun approaching...
so the sun might officially come up at 5:55 - but its light out...long before the sun officially rises.

that horse - of whether she froze to death or not has been beaten down worse than the horse in gone with the wind on the bridge.

if shannan died there of hypothermia the fbi and cops would have found her when they searched that marsh inititally.

 

[MoonUnderfoot]

Thank you for an answer with substance JustK.
I'm new here, as you know.

 

[twocuriouscats]

Not Corll's daughter, he had two teenage "assistants", Elmar Wayne Henley and David Brooks. The daughter line sounds to me as if David Ray Parker, the Toybox Killer, somehow popped into this chitchat. His daughter helped him to procure victims.

Oops...you are right. I confused him with Parker. I think because of the lake/water...and both are cases in the south/southwest.

Anyway, there are not much infos out there. When Houston PD found, that they had slept out everything for about two years and almost half of the boys they labelled as runaways, appeared now in Corll's two dump sites (the boat shed and High Island/Lake Sam Houston), they made quickly a deal with Henley, pulled Brooks over the table and none of them was suddenly eligible for the death penalty as long as they kept their mouths shut about details. Then Houston PD stopped the search after 31 victims were found, arguing, there wouldn't be more. Which was a lie because in grave #30 another bone popped up that belonged to no other known victim.
Now, some years later, I think, it was two or three years, a dog found a bone washed out after a strong rain. Houston PD came out, found four bodies, about 20 yards from the outer grave of the Lake dump site. So what Houston PD did, was to remove the bodies, fill in the hole and run. No investigation, no nothing, as soon as the ME conformed those bodies were male, they booked them on Corll. Now, since 2008 or so, the Houston ME's office went ahead and tried to identify the last of Corll's victims and found those four bodies again. Don't ask me how. They found the bodies somehow in their own pathology. No idea what's going on their. Maybe only samples, who knows in Houston. Bottom line: Those boys were killed after Corll was already a while dead. But after that long time, no other trace is left and so this unsub joined the long list of SKs not caught due to police secrecy.

Thank You for taking the time to explain that - very interesting, I will have to read more about it. So you say that the last 4 died after Corll? Wow.

And on the trivia side: If you want a real gross SK, look up the Corpse Collector on my website. And have a booze at the ready.

Yep, I like the gross ones lol! JK! I'll have a little cocktail and mosey on over to your site!