Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[deedee21]

I wish we knew if he really passed a lie detector test.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

So after grabbing her and driving out of Oakbeach, she's probably fighting him and as soon as he has the opportunity he pulls over and kills her, desperate maybe to calm her down before anymore attention is brought to him? Makes sense.

Doesn't make sense, imo. Why drive her back to Oak Beach to dump her body if he drove her out of Oak Beach and killed her? Coletti has already seen him looking for Shannan, Coletti has seen his vehicle (and for all HE knows, written down his license plate). Brewer knows his name and phone number, and he absolutely knows that Brewer is going to be questioned.

I don't believe Pak is being honest about everything that went on that night...something more was going on in that house that night than he wants to tell, but I don't believe he killed Shannan.

JMHO

And I should add this...we know that Shannan ran down on Anchor Way. I've never read a single report of a witness seeing Pak or his truck down Anchor Way. I think Pak's main concern that night was getting the hell out of dodge before the cops showed up and questioned what he was doing there in the first place. Leave while the place is hot with cops and come back in the morning, when the spit is no longer hitting the fan. I don't think Pak ever expected that Shannan would end up missing, and certainly not dead. Again, just my opinion.

 

[OnTheCase27]

I'm sorry but how does MP killing SG on the side of OP, in OB or on the way back to NYC seem plausible? He knows Shannon's called 911, he knows GC has called 911 why would he risk this? For not being paid his cut which probably and I am being generous was at most $500? There is no logic in killing a "business" partner over $500. Is he an upstanding citizen? Absolutely not but to try to logically explain that he killed the person who made him money over $500 when he was certain the police were on their way is nearly impossible.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I'm sorry but how does MP killing SG on the side of OP, in OB or on the way back to NYC seem plausible? He knows Shannon's called 911, he knows GC has called 911 why would he risk this? For not being paid his cut which probably and I am being generous was at most $500? There is no logic in killing a "business" partner over $500. Is he an upstanding citizen? Absolutely not but to try to logically explain that he killed the person who made him money over $500 when he was certain the police were on their way is nearly impossible.

I totally agree with you. Of course, there are reports that Brewer refused to pay Shannan. But even if that's true, it's certainly not motivation for Pak to kill her. And given all the attention brought on him that night, he would have to be a complete idiot to grab Shannan, drive out of Oak Beach, and then bring her lifeless body back to the hot zone to dump her in the marsh.

A much more likely scenario would be that Pak picked her up, drove her to someone in Oak Beach who could help, and then got the hell out of dodge. Not that I'm saying I think that's what happened...I'm simply saying it's a more likely scenario, imo.

 

[fred&edna]

I'm in agreement here. It is possible MP followed her, found her and killed her but I'm not convinced of this. And this is where I'm stuck.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Moon, I won't speak for others but on this topic, we spent endless time researching the conditions and 100s of posts deliberating those ideas. A few held to the belief that it was a possibility but the great majority of the comments agreed that given the temperature outside, the breaking daylight, the lack of rainfall/precipitation in the two to three weeks preceding May 1, 2010, it would be highly unlikely that after running through the neighborhood for at least 15 or 20 minutes that SG would be cold. People jog in less clothing in the winter and all across the mid-Atlantic coast. It wasn't cold that morning and by midday the temperature reached 80*. SG, if she ever entered the brushy area, would not have had enough time to start freezing before the sun rose a few minutes before 6:00 AM. IMHO, of course.

@MoonUnderfoot: In fact, the big bunch of the "lynch CPH" faction made even a poll to prove SG was murdered and to change the facts. Just like making a poll to change face shapes of the victims to fit their theories. So ... lets just say, it's a sore subject.

 

[deedee21]

@MoonUnderfoot: In fact, the big bunch of the "lynch CPH" faction made even a poll to prove SG was murdered and to change the facts. Just like making a poll to change face shapes of the victims to fit their theories. So ... lets just say, it's a sore subject.

Mr PB Not everyone that thinks SG was killed thinks it was CPH. We might believe she was killed without having any POIs.

 

[Samantha Spade]

Deedee,
You are right in my case. Not knowing everything LE knows, I cannot be sure of anything, but based on the info released through the media (and the timing) I definitely think that this case should not be closed.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

@MoonUnderfoot: In fact, the big bunch of the "lynch CPH" faction made even a poll to prove SG was murdered and to change the facts. Just like making a poll to change face shapes of the victims to fit their theories. So ... lets just say, it's a sore subject.

We have factions? :waitasec:

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

@MoonUnderfoot: In fact, the big bunch of the "lynch CPH" faction made even a poll to prove SG was murdered and to change the facts. Just like making a poll to change face shapes of the victims to fit their theories. So ... lets just say, it's a sore subject.

what does....making a poll to change face shapes of the victims to fit their theories mean?

i honestly don't under stand that sentence...

 

[Peter Brendt]

Everything I've read about paradoxical undressing states that the victims' clothing appears as a "trail" (quite often it's this trail of clothing that leads searchers to their victims) OR the clothing is scattered nearby the victim.

Because SG's clothing was found neither trailing her nor surrounding her, I cannot accept this as an option.

Links:
RE: Trail of clothing:
http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/science/2806/cold_cases.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=qp...oxical undressing "trail of clothing"&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9XzBLvhe3WoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


Map showing the distance between where SG's body was found and where her belongings were found:
http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...rders -NY-/Shannan-map.png.html?sort=6&o=187

So you know exaclty her way in the marsh to be able to estimate, it isn't a trail? Impressive ... because in fact, nobody knows or can even know.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

what does....making a poll to change face shapes of the victims to fit their theories mean?

i honestly don't under stand that sentence...

I think he's referring to the thread where another poster posted a poll asking if we thought GB4 resembled the AC4.

But I could be wrong.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Mr PB Not everyone that thinks SG was killed thinks it was CPH. We might believe she was killed without having any POIs.

I can live with that. But consider me traumatized from the times, everyone here saying, "the evidence points in another direction" was mobbed. That makes me always a little bit hesitant to go through the full discussion again and again. I mean, someone claiming, the clothes are not a trail while in fact, we don't even know the way, the victim went that left the trail ... that doesn't bode well for another round of this.
However, everyone who wants to convince me, SG was killed, should at least bring a thread of circumstantial evidence that isn't based on wild construction or willful ignorance of known details. Or I will not go over that bridge.

 

[Peter Brendt]

We have factions? :waitasec:

We have factions, occasional feuds, sudden sinkholes ... political correctness just prevents us most of the time to warn newcomers about them.

 

[Peter Brendt]

what does....making a poll to change face shapes of the victims to fit their theories mean?

i honestly don't under stand that sentence...

The discussion whether the victims in Atlantic City looked similar to the victims of Gilgo Beach. One can compare hair colors, one can measure face relations, one can compare actual data, like weight, height ... and come to the conclusion, they were not that similar.
Or, as someone tried to promote a theory, it would be, despite all differences in signature, the same killer, start a poll. Admittedly, everyone knows, polls don't change realities, like bone structures. But that didn't matter, the victims were just declared "similar". That's the background story. And yes, I admit, I lost another bit of respect by seeing that.

 

[WINDSOR]

I wish we knew if he really passed a lie detector test.

Lie detector tests are subject to human error, inconsistent and too often wrong to have any merit. They are not allowed in New York courts.

The Clifford Ames, the CIA mole for the Russians is an example:

"In 1986 and 1991, Ames passed two polygraph examinations while spying for the Soviet Union and Russia, respectively. Ames was initially "terrified" at the prospect of taking the test, but he was advised by the KGB "to just relax." Ames's test demonstrated deceptive answers to some questions but the examiners passed him, perhaps in the later opinion of the CIA because the examiners were "overly friendly" and therefore did not induce the proper physiological response.

MP 'passing' proves nothing

MOO

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

The discussion whether the victims in Atlantic City looked similar to the victims of Gilgo Beach. One can compare hair colors, one can measure face relations, one can compare actual data, like weight, height ... and come to the conclusion, they were not that similar.
Or, as someone tried to promote a theory, it would be, despite all differences in signature, the same killer, start a poll. Admittedly, everyone knows, polls don't change realities, like bone structures. But that didn't matter, the victims were just declared "similar". That's the background story. And yes, I admit, I lost another bit of respect by seeing that.

yes i remember that...picture....
thank u for answering....

 

[Peter Brendt]

I think he's referring to the thread where another poster posted a poll asking if we thought GB4 resembled the AC4.

But I could be wrong.

nope, you are right. And I was right too, the poll didn't change the bone structures as can be measured in the photos.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Lie detector tests are subject to human error, inconsistent and too often wrong to have any merit. They are not allowed in New York courts.

The Clifford Ames, the CIA mole for the Russians is an example:

"In 1986 and 1991, Ames passed two polygraph examinations while spying for the Soviet Union and Russia, respectively. Ames was initially "terrified" at the prospect of taking the test, but he was advised by the KGB "to just relax." Ames's test demonstrated deceptive answers to some questions but the examiners passed him, perhaps in the later opinion of the CIA because the examiners were "overly friendly" and therefore did not induce the proper physiological response.

MP 'passing' proves nothing

MOO

Not passing doesn't prove then nothing as well. And of course, a spy may has from the start a little bit of a different mindset. And yes, I can imagine, CIA exminers doing routine tests are maybe sometimes a little too friendly. Today, of course, everyone reads in the internet to mess up the baseline during the initial calibration questions. So everyone believes, it is so easy to fake such a test. Well, people believe in a lot things.

 

[WINDSOR]

I can live with that. But consider me traumatized from the times, everyone here saying, "the evidence points in another direction" was mobbed. That makes me always a little bit hesitant to go through the full discussion again and again. I mean, someone claiming, the clothes are not a trail while in fact, we don't even know the way, the victim went that left the trail ... that doesn't bode well for another round of this.
However, everyone who wants to convince me, SG was killed, should at least bring a thread of circumstantial evidence that isn't based on wild construction or willful ignorance of known details. Or I will not go over that bridge.

Peter, if the ME had found evidence of the cause of death was homicide, then your opinion would change, based on the evidence.

Right now the findings are inconclusive, meaning no cause of death, either natural or criminal has been determined.

Therefore since no evidence currently exists that foul play was involved, you are convinced SG entered the marsh, dropped her clothes, due to hypothermia, and then died of natural causes.

No evidence exists that SG entered the marsh. People saw her on the roadways, but nobody saw her in the marsh.

No evidence exists of anybody seeing SG walking in the marsh either. Even though it would take some time for SG reach her final resting spot. The Police officier who responded to Oak Beach, no doubt took a cursory look into the marsh I would hope, there was enough light to see at that time.

Since a number of residents were up already (GC, BB) likely there were others whose homes look out onto the marsh. Yet nobody saw this SG (potentially disrobed) wandering around the marsh.

So nobody saw her enter the marsh, and nobody saw her in the marsh, you believe because her body ended up in the marsh that she walked in and wandered around all by herself. To quote you, where is the evidence?

I am not trying to argumentative, but it is important to understand that when no evidence exists of an event taking place, that event still could have taken place. The lack of evidence does not ensure the opposite occurrence.

I often break the speed laws, but just as often there is no evidence of that fact other than my own awareness of that fact, and I am not confessing.

MOO