Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

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Peter, if the ME had found evidence of the cause of death was homicide, then your opinion would change, based on the evidence.

Right now the findings are inconclusive, meaning no cause of death, either natural or criminal has been determined.

Therefore since no evidence currently exists that foul play was involved, you are convinced SG entered the marsh, dropped her clothes, due to hypothermia, and then died of natural causes.

No evidence exists that SG entered the marsh. People saw her on the roadways, but nobody saw her in the marsh.

No evidence exists of anybody seeing SG walking in the marsh either. Even though it would take some time for SG reach her final resting spot. The Police officier who responded to Oak Beach, no doubt took a cursory look into the marsh I would hope, there was enough light to see at that time.

Since a number of residents were up already (GC, BB) likely there were others whose homes look out onto the marsh. Yet nobody saw this SG (potentially disrobed) wandering around the marsh.

So nobody saw her enter the marsh, and nobody saw her in the marsh, you believe because her body ended up in the marsh that she walked in and wandered around all by herself. To quote you, where is the evidence?

I am not trying to argumentative, but it is important to understand that when no evidence exists of an event taking place, that event still could have taken place. The lack of evidence does not ensure the opposite occurrence.

I often break the speed laws, but just as often there is no evidence of that fact other than my own awareness of that fact, and I am not confessing.

MOO

and justin canning has been quoted all over the news...
as seeing shannan's footprints in the sand

question is
how did he know they were shannan's footprints in the sand?
he didnt say he saw shannan on the beach

just her footprints in the sand.
 
I think the chances of the LISK getting struck by lightning is greater than getting caught.
 
So you know exaclty her way in the marsh to be able to estimate, it isn't a trail? Impressive ... because in fact, nobody knows or can even know.

Maybe you should read my post again. I did not say anything about HER trail.

Her belongings were found in a single area approximately one-quarter mile distance from her body. This is NOT A TRAIL of her belongings. They were one place, and she was another. There was no gradual dropping, there are no increments of placement.
 
Peter, if the ME had found evidence of the cause of death was homicide, then your opinion would change, based on the evidence.

Given the quality of some East Coast coroner's in the last half a dozen SK cases, I would like to read that report before I change my mind on a general note like "the ME thinks". But yes, if there would be conclusive evidence, I wouldn't ignore that.

Right now the findings are inconclusive, meaning no cause of death, either natural or criminal has been determined.

Wrong, the ME findings are inconclusive. The timeline, the physical limitations of the parties involved, the location of the body, the fact, that her belongings were spread out, are not inconclusive. In my opinion, they speak a very clear language. And I'm not willing to ignore that for reasons of political correctness.

Therefore since no evidence currently exists that foul play was involved, you are convinced SG entered the marsh, dropped her clothes, due to hypothermia, and then died of natural causes.

Again wrong. Since there is a lot of evidence outside of the ME report, I conclude, based on that evidence, that a death as consequence of temperature and drugs.


No evidence exists that SG entered the marsh. People saw her on the roadways, but nobody saw her in the marsh.

Lets stay logic here. Since her body was found in there, at some point, she had entered the marsh or, as I see your preferred theory, be carried in there. Now, while she was actually seen near the marsh and it is unreasonable to assume, that in a marsh nobody lives in somebody saw her, there is some strong indication, she actually entered the marsh that morning. This is also supported by the repeatedly led discussion that none of the involved parties had actually a wide enough time window to snatch SG and kill her.
Also supported is that theory by the fact, that it is a hell of an art work to carry skeletal remains into a marsh and puzzle them together exact enough to fool CSI and ME. Which would be an almost impossible thing to do outside of a Jerry Bruckheimer show. So we can simply dismiss any idea, the remains were placed there much later. We don't even need to ask the questions where those remains were before they were brough there because there is simply no chance they were transported thereto after the tissue was gone.

No evidence exists of anybody seeing SG walking in the marsh either. Even though it would take some time for SG reach her final resting spot. The Police officier who responded to Oak Beach, no doubt took a cursory look into the marsh I would hope, there was enough light to see at that time.

Just to get this right: You ASSUME, the officer took a CURSORY look into a marsh land full of brushes, you HOPE, he had enough light ... and then you use your hope and assumption as fact?

Since a number of residents were up already (GC, BB) likely there were others whose homes look out onto the marsh. Yet nobody saw this SG (potentially disrobed) wandering around the marsh.

You didn't even care to look where their houses are, where their windows are, how high the brushes were or how extended this area is before you bubbled that one out? You also didn't look up at what time, her footprints were seen? You also didn't care, that GC went to the entrance to wait for the police ... you didn't so any of the homework it appears. So, if nobody can see an area from their places, if people say, they couldn't see into that area because they went elsewhere, and if people have no Superman x-ray-glance to look through the brushes (for which SCPD later used some kind of tank to come through, which makes me think, they were not that small), well, no x-ray, no telepathy, no divine illumination, by your logic that means, the marsh doesn't even exist.

So nobody saw her enter the marsh, and nobody saw her in the marsh, you believe because her body ended up in the marsh that she walked in and wandered around all by herself. To quote you, where is the evidence?

After ignoring known facts, the area, all laws of physics, you came to the conclusion, that she was murdered. Count, how much known facts, you have to ignore or bend to make your idea even possible, and I explicitly don't say "credible" here.

I am not trying to argumentative, but it is important to understand that when no evidence exists of an event taking place, that event still could have taken place. The lack of evidence does not ensure the opposite occurrence.

Well, actually, you try to argue. You promote a theory that SG was killed intentionally by an unknown person. Now, the number of persons at this morning and in reach, is limited. None of them has a wide enough time window. SG was seen in Oak Beach and also in reach to the marsh. Her body was found in the marsh. The fact, that nobody saw her in that marsh is logical, given where the houses of the victims are and by the extension of the area as the plant life in there. SGs behavior, before she disappeared, indicates drug induced paranoia. Her known way through OB and her encounter with GC prove, she was at this time, minutes before she vanished entirely, not able to act reasonable or plan an escape. Nothing indicates, at the time, she met GC, that there was in fact anybody out to kill her. Before, she had put in a 23 minute call to 911 ... 23 minutes in which nobody tried to kill her, despite her claims.

I often break the speed laws, but just as often there is no evidence of that fact other than my own awareness of that fact, and I am not confessing.
MOO

But if someone finds one day your dead body in a car wreck and sees then the list of your speeding tickets, together with the depth of the impact into a brick wall, a confession is not necessary anymore. Because the moment, things go bad, there is evidence left and people can see it ... or chose to ignore it.
 
Now lets hope he gets hit by lightning.

Catching a serial killer is a complex process

- first you have to get up a working profile

- then you have to figure out, based on the profile, how to find the guy

- then you have to cut out any kind of evidence that can get lost over time, like traffic cam tapes because LE will not listen to you and they surely won't watch those tapes before they are erased.

- Then you have to compete with about 50 impossible theories to gain enough credibility to sell the profile to LE. Which is impossible in the first place, because when the process reaches the point, politics is involved, LE will do hell and touch anything connected to the case. Aside of it, regular LE is usually neither trained nor equipped for serial killer cases.

- So you have to find the right people at LE, which is impossible because they are shielded by phone mice with nice voices and an iron determination to prevent their bosses from receiving unwanted information.

- So you profile said phone mice to get an entrance

- Then you reach one of those LE guys and the first he says is "I can't tell you anything, this is an ongoing investigation"

- so you tell him, he is not supposed to say anything, he is supposed to listen. Then you give him what you have.

- He will end the talk with the line "Very nice, I will take that under consideration". Which is an euphemism for "Kiss my b***, I didn't make notes anyway"

- Thus you will extend the profile of the telephone mouse to get an email addy from her and send the whole stuff in written form.

- You will not hear from them again.

- So you profile the boss to find a way to motivate him to do his job.

- And this is the point, even profiling can't find an answer.

You see, it's not that easy.
 
Catching a serial killer is a complex process

- first you have to get up a working profile

- then you have to figure out, based on the profile, how to find the guy

- then you have to cut out any kind of evidence that can get lost over time, like traffic cam tapes because LE will not listen to you and they surely won't watch those tapes before they are erased.

- Then you have to compete with about 50 impossible theories to gain enough credibility to sell the profile to LE. Which is impossible in the first place, because when the process reaches the point, politics is involved, LE will do hell and touch anything connected to the case. Aside of it, regular LE is usually neither trained nor equipped for serial killer cases.

- So you have to find the right people at LE, which is impossible because they are shielded by phone mice with nice voices and an iron determination to prevent their bosses from receiving unwanted information.

- So you profile said phone mice to get an entrance

- Then you reach one of those LE guys and the first he says is "I can't tell you anything, this is an ongoing investigation"

- so you tell him, he is not supposed to say anything, he is supposed to listen. Then you give him what you have.

- He will end the talk with the line "Very nice, I will take that under consideration". Which is an euphemism for "Kiss my b***, I didn't make notes anyway"

- Thus you will extend the profile of the telephone mouse to get an email addy from her and send the whole stuff in written form.

- You will not hear from them again.

- So you profile the boss to find a way to motivate him to do his job.

- And this is the point, even profiling can't find an answer.

You see, it's not that easy.

hmmmmm
i wonder which one is harder

catching a serial killer

or quitting smoking.

seems to be equally difficult, eh?
 
hmmmmm
i wonder which one is harder

catching a serial killer

or quitting smoking.

seems to be equally difficult, eh?

Naah ... I can always switch the doctor and smoke but I have no way to switch to another PD only because SCPD is inept for that kind of case.
And in case I have to chose, I prefer to die with a working brain ...
 
Mr. PB I have always said whether something gets done or not will always depend upon the personalty of the person you have to rely on. This is why I said the killer has a better chance of getting hit by lightning. I think the faith the family members have in LE is misplaced.
 
Mr. PB I have always said whether something gets done or not will always depend upon the personalty of the person you have to rely on. This is why I said the killer has a better chance of getting hit by lightning. I think the faith the family members have in LE is misplaced.

Now I sincerely hope, you didn't take my process list too serious!
 
Everything I've read about paradoxical undressing states that the victims' clothing appears as a "trail" (quite often it's this trail of clothing that leads searchers to their victims) OR the clothing is scattered nearby the victim.

Because SG's clothing was found neither trailing her nor surrounding her, I cannot accept this as an option.

Links:
RE: Trail of clothing:
http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/science/2806/cold_cases.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=qp...oxical undressing "trail of clothing"&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9XzBLvhe3WoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


Map showing the distance between where SG's body was found and where her belongings were found:
http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...rders -NY-/Shannan-map.png.html?sort=6&o=187

In my mind, it's impossible for anything that floats to have stayed where it was originally left because of the storm Irene. That includes pants, shoes and pocket books, but not bones to me.
 
In my mind, it's impossible for anything that floats to have stayed where it was originally left because of the storm Irene. That includes pants, shoes and pocket books, but not bones to me.

How likely do you think it is that everything, save the body, would have floated into one neat little area?
 
How likely do you think it is that everything, save the body, would have floated into one neat little area?

By the time Irene rolled through, there was no "body", only bones. And yes, if everything leaves from the same place in the same storm, they'll all end up in the same area.
 
Because the ME has not released any death report publicly, we don't even know whether they found her titanium jaw. We don't know to what extent the body/skeleton had decomposed nor do we have an estimated time/date of death and/or COD.

For all we know she died anytime up until the second search in April 2011...time enough for the body to fully decompose by Dec 2012. We don't know if the bones showed any freezer burn. We don't know anything about what was found on the bones (bra, underwear, 2nd earring, necklace, bracelet, watch, WIG, tank top, boots or ballet flats, etc, etc) AND if any of those items were found with the remains, well, we sure don't know what conditions and how much weather wear occurred to any of those items. We don't even know if the skeleton was intact (if all the bones were accounted for.) AND, if all the bones were there, then that would indicate that little to no animal activity occurred. Chances are pretty good that if she had been there for 18 months that there would have been some scattering of the bones and or some missing small bones. We have not heard anything in that regard.

In summary, we CANNOT conclude if SG went into that brush of her own accord or was placed there anytime after the police left the scene.

We also know that there are no less than a half dozen houses on Larbord and Hawser, combined, that have top story decks that look directly out over the brushy area. Photos were posted within the last ten days of 79 Hawser's view of the marsh from the back of that home. The photos came from a realtor site from when the home was on the market.

Until a full Death report is ever released(including the condition of the remains, an estimated time of death, the condition of the ground under her remains and a full list of items found with the remains as well as the condition of those items and the other items found-at least a 1/4 of a mile away,) there is no way to say either that she went in there and Died in May 2010 or was kept alive and/or frozen or even kept in formaldehyde anytime up until March of 2011 and placed just off the side of the OP after the the first four bodies were found in Dec 2010.

Any assumption as to how she died or even when she died is impossible based on the facts as we currently have them.
 
Of course, there are reports that Brewer refused to pay Shannan. But even if that's true, it's certainly not motivation for Pak to kill her.

(rsbm)

If Brewer was truly refusing to pay, it's unlikely that he would call the driver in to help extract Shannan from the house after she'd been there for several hours.

MP never seemed to have a problem with Brewer, and vice-versa. That suggests to me that money probably did change hands.
 
ATT_Mickey_Mouse_Phone_1979-500x368.jpg


"Hello, Suffolk County Police Department."
 
Yep, for all we know Brewer negotiated some variation of the fee based on what happened with SG. For all we know he paid MP even more money just to get her to leave.
 
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