Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

[siriunsun]

Here is a link regarding the latest search. The house is actually located on Baltimore Avenue in Hyattsville, Maryland (P.G. County). LL2's father and step-mother lived in the house during the 1970's. The FBI searched the same house last May but have returned for a second search and are focusing their attention on the concrete floor in the basement which may have traces of old blood.

WDBJ7

WUSA9

This info was posted last night on the two news stations listed above. I'm having trouble figuring out how to link the articles.

Is there any record indicating that the grand jury spoke with ALL of Dick's children?

 

[scmom]

I didn't see an article but here's a video regarding the search.
http://static.wusa9.com/video-archive-player/?bctid=4555903595001

 

[Bob Coleman]

New to the board, but grew up a short distance from the Lyons on Grant Avenue, and have been following the story since the beginning...

Haven't seen any discussion about this - LLW was early into his criminal career when he allegedly abducted and killed the Lyon sisters. If he was willing to abduct and kill then, are there any suspicions that he killed other young girls since? Hard to believe he'd abuse other young girls, but not kill them. But if in fact true, does this lend some credence to LLWs claim that he abducted the girls, but did not kill them [RW did]?

Speaking of RW, is the drawn out nature of that part of the investigation an indication of less evidence of his involvement as opposed to LLW? I would have thought some development, i.e. charges, would have happened by now...

 

[G&AMom]

Welcome to WS, Bob.

I think Eileen Kelly is a possibility:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?97069-DC-Eileen-Kelly-18-Washington-DC-December-1974

The suggestion that LLW abducted and RW did the murders would, in my opinion, fit in with her case. I know some disagree, though, so take a look and see what you think.

New to the board, but grew up a short distance from the Lyons on Grant Avenue, and have been following the story since the beginning...

Haven't seen any discussion about this - LLW was early into his criminal career when he allegedly abducted and killed the Lyon sisters. If he was willing to abduct and kill then, are there any suspicions that he killed other young girls since? Hard to believe he'd abuse other young girls, but not kill them. But if in fact true, does this lend some credence to LLWs claim that he abducted the girls, but did not kill them [RW did]?

Speaking of RW, is the drawn out nature of that part of the investigation an indication of less evidence of his involvement as opposed to LLW? I would have thought some development, i.e. charges, would have happened by now...

 

[Bob Coleman]

Interesting. We may never know the full extent of this guy's exploits...

For me, aside from the terrible crime of abducting and killing these poor girls, I can't get over the [apparent] knowledge of quite a few of the [extended] Welsh family. If someone in the family had spoken up, if the girls wouldn't still be alive, at least the culprit would have been caught right away...

 

[steveP120]

New to the board, but grew up a short distance from the Lyons on Grant Avenue, and have been following the story since the beginning...

Haven't seen any discussion about this - LLW was early into his criminal career when he allegedly abducted and killed the Lyon sisters. If he was willing to abduct and kill then, are there any suspicions that he killed other young girls since? Hard to believe he'd abuse other young girls, but not kill them. But if in fact true, does this lend some credence to LLWs claim that he abducted the girls, but did not kill them [RW did]?

Speaking of RW, is the drawn out nature of that part of the investigation an indication of less evidence of his involvement as opposed to LLW? I would have thought some development, i.e. charges, would have happened by now...

Welcome to Websleuths.
It's hard to find in the discussion of every possible criminal and crime, but others, I think starting with Richard, have brought up inconsistency between Lloyd's criminal history of not murdering his victims and the assumed murder of the Lyon sisters.

One explanation is that Llyod, just being a sex offender and not a murderer is innocent; the police have the wrong man. This explanation seems popular with people who think the Tape Recorder Man alone is responsible.

I have not previously heard your explanation, that Lloyd kidnapped the girls, but someone else intentionally murdered them. But this would require 1) Lloyd knowing a murderer and 2) the "murderer" (the other person of interest) having no known history of murder.

My theory is that the murder was the result of a crime gone wrong, and murder was not planned or desired by the criminal.

Compare this to the more common armed robbery gone wrong. The robber only wants the money and does not want to murder his victim. But if the victim resists and something goes wrong, the robber may shoot his victim to avoid a fight or arrest. It's usually a young, inexperienced robber who does not have the experience to conduct an armed robbery without resorting to murder. As an robber gains more experience, he (or the rare she) learns how to deal with any resistance without resorting to murder. In any case, even a life-long career armed robber usually only has one or two armed robberies go wrong, so it's not like he has a pattern of murder. When looking for murders that look like robberies gone wrong, the police usually find the murderer by finding all the armed robbers in the area.

On the other hand, a serial killer, who likes to murder people and murdering people is the point of the crime, would have a pattern of murder. As you, and others have noted, Lloyd has no known pattern of murder, and little pattern of violence (other than child abuse) that we know of (his juvenile record may be sealed).

In any case, a pattern/history of past sexual abuse or murder can't be used against Lloyd or anyone, with very few rare exceptions (such as if Lloyd tried to pick up other young girls at Wheaton Plaza the same day).

Lloyd is a good suspect, in my opinion, but it remains to be seen if there is enough evidence left after so many years.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

Bob Coleman,
I would like to welcome you to Websleuths as well.
Nice to have you here.

Since you and steveP120 have brought up questions about LLW2 and RAW1,
I would like to ask you both and anyone else here to answer the question of:
WHY are there SOME CASES where someone has admitted to a crime and perhaps have even received LIFE in prison or the Death Penalty and then--later--either DNA evidence comes to light or stranger yet--a victim shows up--ALIVE!!!??

<modsnip>

 

[siriunsun]

Bob Coleman,
I would like to welcome you to Websleuths as well.
Nice to have you here.

Since you and steveP120 have brought up questions about LLW2 and RAW1,
I would like to ask you both and anyone else here to answer the question of:
WHY are there SOME CASES where someone has admitted to a crime and perhaps have even received LIFE in prison or the Death Penalty and then--later--either DNA evidence comes to light or stranger yet--a victim shows up--ALIVE!!!??


<modsnip>

It's incredibly unlikely that the DA would charge someone with murder with no evidence to prove that the victims are not alive.

 

[steveP120]

Since you and steveP120 have brought up questions about LLW2 and RAW1,
I would like to ask you both and anyone else here to answer the question of:
WHY are there SOME CASES where someone has admitted to a crime and perhaps have even received LIFE in prison or the Death Penalty and then--later--either DNA evidence comes to light or stranger yet--a victim shows up--ALIVE!!!??

The invention of DNA technology has overturned or called into question a very small percent of murder convictions or even murder confessions (the Central Park Jogger case). Depending on how measured, these cases were a very small percent of convictions, likely far under 1% depending on how measured.

Even rarer than the 1% or so bad convictions, is the almost unheard of murder conviction for murder of a victim who later turned up alive. To be fair, there have been few no-body murder convictions. A no-body murder conviction would be required if the victim were still alive. There may have been one or two murder convictions in modern U.S. history when the victim turned up alive, but off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one.

More common are cases where someone runs away, decides to cut all contact with friends and family, and start a new life, often living on the street or on the edges of society. Often runaways cut off all contact with old friends and family because they know their families would not approve of their sexual and/or substance abuse lifestyle. Often people run away from debt collectors or from dysfunctional families.

Missing person cases often become murder cases, especially if the runaway was a victim of domestic violence or stalking. These may be the cases that you are thinking of. Perhaps a few thousand or so boyfriends, husbands and other shady associates of runaways get roughly questioned by the police and even accused of murdering the runaway, but as noted above, few of these made it to murder convictions without a body.

Because of the young age of the Lyon sisters, it's highly unlikely that they run away and were able to run away for more than a few days.

Custody disputes sometimes, but rarely lead to kidnapping with no death or physical harm to the children, but this does not appear to be the case with the Lyon sisters. As far as we know, there is no relative who thought the Lyon's parents were bad radio parents, who may kidnapped the children to what they thought was a better home. There was some speculation online that some (Texas?) Welch girl was one of the Lyon sisters, but this has been denied, and would be easy to prove or disprove.

While extremely rare, baby snatching to provide children for adoptive parents, who many or many not know the baby or toddler was kidnapped, has happened. Kidnapping a child who speaks for an adoptive problem has the obvious problems that they can talk, and will likely talk about being kidnapped sooner or later even if threatened or brainwashed; this almost never happens.

While everyone would be happy if the Lyon sisters were still alive, and say turned up in France having been told that their parents died, unfortunately, this is the least likely outcome.

Sorry but the only comforting words I can offer are that Lloyd, if guilty, was such a screw-up, that the crime likely went wrong within minutes, before Lloyd accomplished many or any of his sexual goals.

 

[steveP120]

It's incredibly unlikely that the DA would charge someone with murder with no evidence to prove that the victims are not alive.

In no-body murder cases, the presumed murder victim(s) not being seen alive for a few years is often (barely) enough evidence for a murder conviction. Of course the accused will claim reasonable doubt of murder without a dead body.

I would not be at all surprised if the DA has no bodies of the Lyon sisters.

 

[siriunsun]

In no-body murder cases, the presumed murder victim(s) not being seen alive for a few years is often (barely) enough evidence for a murder conviction. Of course the accused will claim reasonable doubt of murder without a dead body.

I would not be at all surprised if the DA has no bodies of the Lyon sisters.

The Dylan Redwine case has no body, either; just bones and bone fragments that were found, yet there is no legal doubt that he is deceased. After forty years, there was no perceived rush to charge anyone in the case of the Lyon sisters. With no evidence of murder, no charges would have been brought.

 

[steveP120]

The Dylan Redwine case has no body, either; just bones and bone fragments that were found, yet there is no legal doubt that he is deceased. After forty years, there was no perceived rush to charge anyone in the case of the Lyon sisters. With no evidence of murder, no charges would have been brought.

The typical no-body murder case usually goes something like this:

A man (usually a man) takes a woman out on a boat in a large bay (or very large park).
The woman is never seen thereafter, and presumed dead after a period of time.
The man claims the woman got upset, and the woman ran off; he claims to have no idea where she is.
The man may have had a motive to murder or a very bad anger management problem.
The may be very weak circumstantial evidence such as the man "lost" his anchor, (presumably because an anchor is needed to sink a body), or the man lost his hiking boots and clothing (presumably because there was some blood on them).

These are always tough cases.

IF the police have found a 1/100 of a drop of blood of one of the Lyon sisters at a house where Lloyd was staying at the time, a speck of blood even confirmed by DNA does not prove anything alone, but with the total circumstances, there may be just enough for a murder conviction.

I would be very surprised if the police have enough of a body to physically prove murder, much less the cause of death. IF the police have a bone that they could extract DNA from, they might have enough to prove death, but not the cause of death.

 

[siriunsun]

The typical no-body murder case usually goes something like this:

A man (usually a man) takes a woman out on a boat in a large bay (or very large park).
The woman is never seen thereafter, and presumed dead after a period of time.
The man claims the woman got upset, and the woman ran off; he claims to have no idea where she is.
The man may have had a motive to murder or a very bad anger management problem.
The may be very weak circumstantial evidence such as the man "lost" his anchor, (presumably because an anchor is needed to sink a body), or the man lost his hiking boots and clothing (presumably because there was some blood on them).

These are always tough cases.

IF the police have found a 1/100 of a drop of blood of one of the Lyon sisters at a house where Lloyd was staying at the time, a speck of blood even confirmed by DNA does not prove anything alone, but with the total circumstances, there may be just enough for a murder conviction.

I would be very surprised if the police have enough of a body to physically prove murder, much less the cause of death. IF the police have a bone that they could extract DNA from, they might have enough to prove death, but not the cause of death.

I suppose we will all read or hear about the evidence when Mr. Welch goes to court.

 

[ChrisSully616]

I want to believe they have caught the correct person in this tragic case. Though my gut I do not think they have, I have nothing to support this feeling just a strong gut feeling.

 

[siriunsun]

I want to believe they have caught the correct person in this tragic case. Though my gut I do not think they have, I have nothing to support this feeling just a strong gut feeling.

That's why he will be going to court; he will have ample opportunity to challenge the charges.

 

[G&AMom]

I want to believe they have caught the correct person in this tragic case. Though my gut I do not think they have, I have nothing to support this feeling just a strong gut feeling.

I haven't seen enough to totally convince me that he is the one, but I feel there's a whole lot we haven't seen or heard yet. I'm not drawing any conclusions.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

 

[mdietz47]

I can't comprehend how screwed this case has become in the 40+ years the MCP have 'investigated' it...

If we could only clear our mind of the fog and distractions of the past 3 years and go back to the very beginning, to March 25th 1975, and re-examine the events of the next 13 days from when they were taken until they were seen in Manassas VA on April 7th - 5 bankers boxes in a steel shed behind the MCP Detectives Offices. Then consider the evidence recovered from the Rappahannock River near Fredericksburg VA during the shad run March-April 1976 - taken by the FBI. Finally, skip to early 1983 when 'Mike" Debardeleben is captured and brought to trial and convicted for multiple rape-murders from 1968 till his arrest. Crimes that he committed from the Mississippi River to the East coast both north and south - 70+ boxes of physical evidence with 100's of photos of nude female victims, knives, pistols, bloody panties and audio tapes. Add in the lost evidence, the Secret Service failed to recover from his Manassas VA storage locker after his arrest that, tossed into the Prince William Co landfill off Rt-234 south of Manassas at Independent Hill.

None of these properly cataloged, properly handled by the prolifery of detectives rummaging about looking for 'evidence' in their case. Now we have the total sum of squat to prove anything about any one for whatever crime they may or may not have committed. The prime-ultimate example of the obliteration of crucial evidence in the pursuit of a criminal conviction of one.

So instead of evidence, we pursue a trail by accusation and coercion. The primo-method to obtain a conviction by a rural county jury is for the prosecutor to pile on with extreme prejudice the criminal accusations layer by layer until the jury is convinced that surely they most are guilty of 'something' or why would they be brought to trial. Again and again juries convict not 'maybe' innocent but those totally without any knowledge of the crime they’re charged with. Those who have 'some' guilt can defend themselves. Those totally without any knowledge of the crime they are charged with are defenseless.

I saw the perpetrator in Manassas and reported what I saw, as did the 1st witness the MCP dismissed as unsubstantiated. Others who saw the girls at differing times on Mar 25th did too and they were dismissed. How many others then have come forward and told the truth and been denied because they testimony didn't fit the MCP's scenario.

Believe what you wish, those of you who do not know the truth, you cause not harm to anyone. But those who should 'want' to know the truth, those who exist to protect and defend us from the Debardeleben’s of this world, you have failed and will earn your proper place in the afterlife without forgiveness for your denial.

As for me, I can only forgive the Lyon's. My guilt, for failing to save Sheila in the moment I saw her face, is confounded by the shear indifference they exhibit on the loss of their two daughters for absolutely no God-given purpose. They wait 7 years and a day to declare them lost forever. They claim to want their privacy, yet others who have lost children longer ago than them beg to know what happened to their child. So why is it when I try to tell them of my last glimpse of their daughter, they turn a deaf ear?

When I saw Sheila, I didn't have a child yet. When I tried to convey my expression of compassion for their loss, I had had a grandson. The first I can forgive because I hadn't experienced the creation of another from my own being. After the birth of my own daughter, began my lifetime of nurturing and protecting my own. With the birth of my first grandson came awareness that my mortality was extended by the children of my children. That as parents, we have children to raise as physical extensions of ourselves, replicants, in a sense. But as grandparents, the children of our children are our destiny, all that 'we were' that will forever be unalterably past onto the future.

 

[steveP120]

I can't comprehend how screwed this case has become in the 40+ years the MCP have 'investigated' it...

I have no idea if mdietz47 (or anyone else on Websluths) is who he claims to be, but I have seen in credible newspapers the story of the witness who thinks he saw the two Lyon sisters in the back of a station wagon in Virginia about two weeks later than their disappearance from Wheaton Plaza (after much local news on the subject). This witness, a respected man, even after decades, is convinced he saw the Llyon sisters. His timeline and much of his description is not compatible with Lloyd Welch being the kidnapper or the current police theory, as far was we know.

Obviously Lloyd's defense team would be interested in this (alleged) sighting of the Lyon sisters and other alleged sightings of the Lyon sisters that suggest/prove that others (than Lloyd) were responsible. But it would be up to a jury/judge to decide which sightings were "credible" or "questionable." In my opinion, even "questionable" sightings might lead to reasonable doubt.

I would agree the police "screwed up" on several occasions, the biggest mistake not following up on Lloyd when they were interviewing him as a witness back in 1975, when they could have checked Lloyd's every movement in the past week from the crime to prove the Lloyd either did it or did not do it. A week after the crime, if Lloyd was on a bus from Wheaton Plaza to Silver Spring (as he claimed in one of his stories), the police had a chance to find others on the bus or at the bus stop with Lloyd. Forty years later, people could not tell you what bus they were on in 1975. For those not paying close attention to the case, but in 1975, the police had a good sketch of Lloyd (the long hair man) who was not only looking at the girls, but had a verbal altercation with one girl, a friend of the Lyon sisters with them at Wheaton Plaza, who told Lloyd to "take a photo, it will last longer."

 

[Fukiyama]

I have no idea if mdietz47 (or anyone else on Websluths) is who he claims to be, but I have seen in credible newspapers the story of the witness who thinks he saw the two Lyon sisters in the back of a station wagon in Virginia about two weeks later than their disappearance from Wheaton Plaza (after much local news on the subject). This witness, a respected man, even after decades, is convinced he saw the Llyon sisters. His timeline and much of his description is not compatible with Lloyd Welch being the kidnapper or the current police theory, as far was we know.

Obviously Lloyd's defense team would be interested in this (alleged) sighting of the Lyon sisters and other alleged sightings of the Lyon sisters that suggest/prove that others (than Lloyd) were responsible. But it would be up to a jury/judge to decide which sightings were "credible" or "questionable." In my opinion, even "questionable" sightings might lead to reasonable doubt.

I would agree the police "screwed up" on several occasions, the biggest mistake not following up on Lloyd when they were interviewing him as a witness back in 1975, when they could have checked Lloyd's every movement in the past week from the crime to prove the Lloyd either did it or did not do it. A week after the crime, if Lloyd was on a bus from Wheaton Plaza to Silver Spring (as he claimed in one of his stories), the police had a chance to find others on the bus or at the bus stop with Lloyd. Forty years later, people could not tell you what bus they were on in 1975. For those not paying close attention to the case, but in 1975, the police had a good sketch of Lloyd (the long hair man) who was not only looking at the girls, but had a verbal altercation with one girl, a friend of the Lyon sisters with them at Wheaton Plaza, who told Lloyd to "take a photo, it will last longer."

Have you read through all of mdietz47's posts here at WS, Steve?

 

[steveP120]

Have you read through all of mdietz47's posts here at WS, Steve?

I have read most, if not all of "Mdietz47" posts. It really does not matter if "Mdietz47" is the real witness or an impostor/troll, since a real VA/station wagon witness exists. Websleuths has fewer trolls than most forums; but some people, often kids, get their kicks pretending to be other people saying provocative things such as "I am a member of the W. Family, and my uncles are all guilty," or pretend to be someone important or in the news as an escape from their ordinary life.

Likewise, it does not matter if the real VA/station wagon witness believes that he saw the Llyon sisters in a back of a station wagon or not, but IF the two girls in the back of the station wagon were the Llyon sisters. The two girls in the back of the VA station wagon could have been the Llyon sisters or they could have been two other young girls who looked similar to the Llyon sister to a man who never previously saw the Llyons sister in person. For those too young to remember, station wagons were the mini-vans of the time, and many if not most families had a station wagon.