Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

[Schipperke]

<modsnip>

I have not included the name of anyone who has not already been identified by LE in news releases.

References to “vagueness’ led me to consider reasons for “vagueness” in THIS 40+ year old crime—Abduction of Sheila and Katherine Lyon. The simple fact is that after that amount of time, you HAVE STARTED losing “institutional” (first-hand) knowledge which could only be held by:
1) participants in the crime;
2) accessories (witnesses) by knowledge of the crime at the time it happened;
3) witnesses who may have observed but had no understanding that a crime we being committed.
At that point, anyone else involved has only second-hand knowledge from having had stories passed on to them.
That led me to categorize people already identified as having some knowledge of the crime in the chart which follows. (Bessie, please note For posting here, I have shown an example using only people who are already identified publicly with the case.
It is evident that other participants/witnesses in this case HAVE to be from PREVIOUS GENERATIONS of families AND/OR associates of the known suspect or person of interest. That is where OBITUARIES, IMO, play an important part in finding connections to people who have been named or identified in past WS threads. Often times, people who have achieved some stature in life will have more information posted. People who lived in small towns often have “home town” postings with significant information.
Since adding new information by name is unacceptable in WS threads, I thought I would share this method of continued review for those who are interested in continued sleuthing.
Criteria for charting:
Crime occurred: 3/25/75
To have participated as an adult age 18 would have to have been born on or before 3/25/1957
What the Dead Know written before 2006, published 2007 30 years after crime. Adult participants in the crime would have had to be at minimum 48 years old but likely older in 2006, if alive.
2010 – adult participants would have had to be 52 years old or older if alive.
2014 – adult participants would have had to be 56 years old or older if alive.
2016 – adult participants would have had to be 58 years old or older if alive.

2016 – Anyone alive after 3/25/75, could have “heard” family accounts of such a crime happening.
2016 - Anyone younger than 41 born after 3/25/75, could not have been present in the actual crime because they were not alive.
2016 - Persons younger than 39 but older than 34, born between 1980 and 3/25/84, could have been present possibly without fully understanding what was happening and may or may not have 1[SUP]st[/SUP] hand memories.
2016 – Persons older than 31 but less than 34, born between 1975 and 80 would be too young to have cognizant personal memories.

Name\Who COULD HAVE: ↓→	Participated	been present with some memories	been present without memory	not participated but “heard” through family talk	Notes/living or deceased L-D/
Would have been In 2016 ↓→	over age 58	Over age 34 Age 10-18	Age 31 – 34 – age 5-10	Younger than 41 – NO 1[SUP]st[/SUP]-hand knowledge		1975	2016
Richard Allen Welch	70+ yes				L– official person of interest	Hyattsville	Hyattsville
Lloyd Lee Welch Jr.	59 yes				L -in prison	Hyattsville	Hyattsville
Leslie Engelking	Yes				L-Charged with perjury	?	Alexandria VA
Patricia J. Welch	Yes				L-Charged with perjury	Hyattsville	Hyattsville
Amy Ann Welch Johnson				Yes	L-Charged with obstruction		Southern MD.
Gladys Stangee	Yes				L-Charged with obstruction		Bedford, VA
Henry Parker		Yes			D-Witness	Thaxton
Connie Akers		Yes			L-Witness
Thomas Ted Welch Jr.		Yes

[TH="colspan: 2"]Location
[/TH]

 

[siriunsun]

What's missing from this graph are the definitions of various crimes in Maryland and Virginia, and all of the evidence that has been found, and the individual(s) to whom the evidence has been connected.

 

[Schipperke]

Siriunsun,

This graph is only on the crime on 3/25/75 - Abduction of Lyon girls. Every crime would have to be the subject of its on graph; then information can be drawn from each graph for entry into overall comparison. If you get multiple hits in the same category, same person, etc., it begins to form a picture. It is the slow human form of what a good LE computer program can/could do very quickly. It is an example of how computers store information and rely on speedy cross-accessing other information to produce the requested information. It compares with what the human brain has to do with information to produce the same results. A good LE program is the equivalent of a Super-Master Sleuth but still needs the human "touch" to decide the criteria for comparison and evaluate input and output for truth in result.

When I recently graphed a book with a real crime and a potential witness using known information on names, locations, and ages, and curious descriptions, I came up with a number of "hits" that needed more human scrutiny and possible consideration. After review, further backward search (historical) provided amazing acuity of other circumstances which may or may not be related in the end, but still need to be considered IMO.

The computer, without a good program to pull information, is like a never-ending book of facts waiting to be discovered. How I wish I had studied writing of computer programs and computer language. The fallacy of computer use is still "human" --Garbage in = Garbage out --and humans are at both ends. Fortunately, with internet information multiple humans are at both ends which creates a broader perspective for review--more eyes and brains able to consider the same information--hopefully with the same goal of "truth in justice" in mind.

A graph on suspects/crimes comparing known locations of suspects at the time of the crime, might produce some interesting results--but it would be time consuming. I may consider starting one in interest of finding out if any of the possible suspects in all the crimes mentioned in connection in WS with this case, may have crossed paths--particularly in Texas when the Ft. Worth 3 took place. One of the big problems is finding information on locations of everyone at all of the crime times--computers do not track the whereabouts of everyone 24/7, but it could produce a common location to all of them which would be another line to pursue through other means. Until you try, you will never know what the result might be.

What do the cases have in common? What are the differences? Sometimes the differences are just as telling as the commonalities.

 

[zensiert]

...
A graph on suspects/crimes comparing known locations of suspects at the time of the crime, might produce some interesting results--but it would be time consuming. I may consider starting one in interest of finding out if any of the possible suspects in all the crimes mentioned in connection in WS with this case, may have crossed paths--particularly in Texas when the Ft. Worth 3 took place. One of the big problems is finding information on locations of everyone at all of the crime times--computers do not track the whereabouts of everyone 24/7, but it could produce a common location to all of them which would be another line to pursue through other means. Until you try, you will never know what the result might be.

What do the cases have in common? What are the differences? Sometimes the differences are just as telling as the commonalities.

Thank you for the chart, Schipperke.
The Lyon sisters abduction was not a one-off crime, and Richard Sr. and Lloyd Jr. were not the only ones involved.

I always come back to this:
Montgomery County Assistant Police Chief Russ Hamill said, &#8220;I believe we&#8217;ll get to the bottom of where many crimes occurred by the end of the investigation.&#8221; &#8220;There&#8217;s people out here in these communities that know what happened back then and they carry it with them to this day,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Two little girls were the main victims but there are many others &#8230;.&#8221;

 

[bessie]

What is the point of including a work of fiction in this table

Also, there's an entire Jennifer Kesse sub-forum on WS.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?349-Jennifer-Kesse

 

[foureyes]

<modsnip>

The chart you prepared was extensive, and is appreciated by many. The book's title is mentioned in #478 post, but
the point is moot, as my post is gone from this thread. As far as MDietz47, I have posted both publicly and privately so I do
not consider him a false tip, see my past posts!, I have stated my belief in his claim of what he saw in April 75', but not his viewpoint
on the TRM. The presiding judge has put a lid on this case now, the police , the newspapers, etc will not discuss anything about the case to ensure a fair trial.
Many local people who have been with this case for years and years feel a strong connection and yearn for answers, but patience is a virtue. Happy sleuthing!

 

[Schipperke]

Bessie,

I don't believe the example I posted included any fiction. But a comparison table such as this can be used to establish whether or not everything included in such a work is fiction or may include disguised facts. Many movies, as well as books, are made using both fact and fiction and unless the general user of that medium is careful, the lines between fact and fiction become blurred. I believe creating, telling, and repeating a story is a tool used in Stockholm Syndrome preparation. If you hear it or tell it often enough, you eventually come to believe it as truth even when you originally knew it was not.

For example: in the book mentioned, the girls were adopted and not the natural children of the parents from whom they were abducted. And,in the book, that information was removed from the LE case file by a detective who became too "involved" in the case.

Many people who have read the book believe the adoption is an established fact in real life. I have not found any "real life" address of that fact to resolve the issue, either way, in discussions.

The book created confusion in the minds of many that will only be resolved with a new and up-dated statement of fact from LE, which does not appear to be forthcoming, at least not before the trial, again possibly for very good reason.

There are other instances where blurring has occurred as well. I do not mean that to be a criticism of the author; it is a simple statement of human nature and how the human brain stores information it takes in.

I believe anyone who had read the book with clarity and considered the real life incident on which it was "loosely" based (according to the author) will understand what I am saying.

It is a personal decision as to whether or not anyone wishes to use a chart to make the distinctions for themselves.

Thanks for the Kesse reference.

 

[siriunsun]

Bessie,

I don't believe the example I posted included any fiction. But a comparison table such as this can be used to establish whether or not everything included in such a work is fiction or may include disguised facts. Many movies, as well as books, are made using both fact and fiction and unless the general user of that medium is careful, the lines between fact and fiction become blurred. I believe creating, telling, and repeating a story is a tool used in Stockholm Syndrome preparation. If you hear it or tell it often enough, you eventually come to believe it as truth even when you originally knew it was not.

For example: in the book mentioned, the girls were adopted and not the natural children of the parents from whom they were abducted. And,in the book, that information was removed from the LE case file by a detective who became too "involved" in the case.

Many people who have read the book believe the adoption is an established fact in real life. I have not found any "real life" address of that fact to resolve the issue, either way, in discussions.

The book created confusion in the minds of many that will only be resolved with a new and up-dated statement of fact from LE, which does not appear to be forthcoming, at least not before the trial, again possibly for very good reason.

There are other instances where blurring has occurred as well. I do not mean that to be a criticism of the author; it is a simple statement of human nature and how the human brain stores information it takes in.

I believe anyone who had read the book with clarity and considered the real life incident on which it was "loosely" based (according to the author) will understand what I am saying.

It is a personal decision as to whether or not anyone wishes to use a chart to make the distinctions for themselves.

Thanks for the Kesse reference.

The book to which you refer is a work of fiction, nothing else. The writer had no actual idea of what really happened to the Lyon sisters. If such non-information were to be pondered in court, before a jury, it would only be done by the defense, in order to confuse the entire panel and distract their attention from the real evidence.

 

[Schipperke]

Siriunsun,

Sorry, unless you have read and really scrutinized the book, you should keep an open mind as to what it does or does not contain. There is a thin line between coincidence and fact-intermingled-and-disguised-as-coincidence. Sometimes the only thing stranger than fiction is FACT even if you don't recognize it as fact at the time. Like our previous discussion of the Deep Web, Dark Web, and the internet, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. But. . . I respect the fact that you are entitled to your opinion.

I am not sure if this will violate the name posting rules, but reading through old WS posts, it was noted that Delebardeben was known to be in TX at the time of the Fort Worth 3 case in on December 23-24, 1974. Checking on the LE released listing of where LWK was indicates that on January 9, 1975 (the first date on the listing), he was in Austin, Tx, before coming to Maryland by 3/25/75, the date of the abduction of the Lyon Sisters. Coincidence? Maybe; maybe not. Still checking facts and wondering where some of the other "players" may have been around that time and wondering if the information is "out there" waiting.

 

[foureyes]

Siriunsun,

Sorry, unless you have read and really scrutinized the book, you should keep an open mind as to what it does or does not contain. There is a thin line between coincidence and fact-intermingled-and-disguised-as-coincidence. Sometimes the only thing stranger than fiction is FACT even if you don't recognize it as fact at the time. Like our previous discussion of the Deep Web, Dark Web, and the internet, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. But. . . I respect the fact that you are entitled to your opinion.

I am not sure if this will violate the name posting rules, but reading through old WS posts, it was noted that Delebardeben was known to be in TX at the time of the Fort Worth 3 case in on December 23-24, 1974. Checking on the LE released listing of where LWK was indicates that on January 9, 1975 (the first date on the listing), he was in Austin, Tx, before coming to Maryland by 3/25/75, the date of the abduction of the Lyon Sisters. Coincidence? Maybe; maybe not. Still checking facts and wondering where some of the other "players" may have been around that time and wondering if the information is "out there" waiting.

Schipperke , Thank you for stating you allow other opinions.
IMO, I agree with post #16 on Katherine Lyon thread, page 2. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?273669-Katherine-Lyon/page2

I also think it is 'cruel and sensational' to continue a theory containing (example-the stockholm syndrome, etc ) here on a public forum in a day and age of mtDNA.
In your post #436- " I offer possibilities with logic as to why they should or should not be considered. "
But more often than not, your posts allude to the possibility there is no "proof of death" for the victims. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think " LWK " was meant to be LLW jr. Please allow me to list an alternative, yet compelling, discussion-

Do you find it interesting MDietz47 in 2010 felt the abducted were taken to Blue Ridge County VA? Which is within one half hour's drive of the LE dig site.
The court trial will hear allegations broaching the month of April 1975. Do you think the dig site(s) produced any type of evidence?

 

[foureyes]

<modsnip>

Then again
maybe there is another legal reason to include the month of April in 1975 in addressing allegations -2016 article http://www.newsadvance.com/trial-in...cle_f23c0cfc-57aa-5ab2-80ee-43b2496b0e8c.html
You have a good memory . Thank you, I wish I could provide a map.
Unfortunately the Affidavit states the bloody duffle bag information was given in the "spring of 1975" not too specific. I firmly believe it will be a no-body trial and it will be proven, after this length of time, the victims are deceased. To indicate otherwise, I repeat, is cruel, unkind and not necessary at this point.

 

[foureyes]

Correction: MDietz47 indicated the tags on the car he believed to be from Blue Ridge County VA. IMO, the abducted were possibly taken there which is within 1/2 hr drive of the LE dig site. In other words, Mr. Dietz in 2010, was posting here on WS about both the states of Virginia and Maryland, perhaps recognition is due for his efforts.

 

[beachlvr0810]

Correction: MDietz47 indicated the tags on the car he believed to be from Blue Ridge County VA. IMO, the abducted were possibly taken there which is within 1/2 hr drive of the LE dig site. In other words, Mr. Dietz in 2010, was posting here on WS about both the states of Virginia and Maryland, perhaps recognition is due for his efforts.

FYI for those of you who are not from Virginia...there is no such county near Taylor's Mountain called Blue Ridge County. Blue Ridge, Virginia is a part of BOTETOURT County. The Botetourt County line ends in Blue Ridge at the Boxley Quarry where the Bedford County line begins.

 

[TedMac]

Someone recently brought to my attention that the is a Washington, VA (not county) which is close to the Rappahannock. It is about an hour way from Bumpass,VA, I believe, and near I 66. Withoutknowing the road system in 1975, perhaps there is a very real connection there to be considered. Good to have more eyes and open minds! Way to go!

Yes there is a Washington, VA. It is the County Seat for Rappahanock Co. The entire County is very small-less than 10,000 people. The last time I went through there there were no stop lights.

Also, there is a Washington County, Va, but it is 300 or so miles away.

 

[Schipperke]

I think the information was given much later than 1975. Welch family participation was not even suspected in 1975. The information claims that family members "remembered" these things, including the bloody duffel bags which were taken from the trunk of a car (station wagons don't have trunks), I believe another fancycar was mentioned by some, etc. All recollections! The affidavit does not make an erroroneous report a true fact. The affidavit only certifies that there is enough reason to pursue a search.

Let me assure you I would never be so cruel or unkind to deliberately foster false hope. IMO, Mdeitz account has never been anything more than unverifiable certainly not disproved as a hoax.

 

[Schipperke]

Te term Blue Ridge County might have been a "descriptive" term used by someone who was unfamiliar with the area.

 

[Schipperke]

TedMac, how long ago was it that you went through and saw no stop lights? I didn't even know it existed or Bumpass either for that matter! LOL Now I am wondering how close the proximity is to the site where Cynthia Gastelle's remains were found. Not saying the two ARE related, but it is certainly something which could be reconsidered.

Yes there is a Washington, VA. It is the County Seat for Rappahanock Co. The entire County is very small-less than 10,000 people. The last time I went through there there were no stop lights.

Also, there is a Washington County, Va, but it is 300 or so miles away.

 

[Schipperke]

Referencing Post #491 previous:

http://www.newsadvance.com/trial-in-lyon-sisters-case-delayed/article_f23c0cfc-57aa-5ab2-80ee-43b2496b0e8c.html Posted: Saturday, January 30, 2016 5:45 am

“Anderson suggested in court Friday the criminal investigator may need to visit places including locations in Maryland, Delaware, Virginia and South Carolina to collect evidence."

Wondering why the criminal investigator would have to go to Delaware and South Carolina for this case? I was under the impression that other cases could not be brought into evidence unless there was some linking evidence. But, I am not an attorney; just wondering why taxpayers have to pay for searching evidence in areas not connected to the case. But, I always have to remind myself that the public does not know what is in those four hard drives of information. Amazing the questions you miss on the first reading of just about everything.

 

[Schipperke]

This is taken from an old post by Marshall Dietz I found while searching through WS history:

"If we could only clear our mind of the fog and distractions of the past 3 years and go back to the very beginning, to March 25th 1975, and re-examine the events of the next 13 days from when they were taken until they were seen in Manassas VA on April 7th. . . <modsnip>

Finally, skip to early 1983 when 'Mike" Debardeleben is captured and brought to trial and convicted for multiple rape-murders from 1968 till his arrest."

Interesting thought to ponder from a time when there were virtually no suspects or anyone claiming to have any knowledge about possible suspects.

Given what information we are still working with today, MDietz sighting now fits IMO as a probability rather than a possibility, especially if.

<modsnip>

but public information has always said that MOCO has always been considered the primary lead in the investigation. Some posts suggest that this was because the family wanted it that way, but I can't find any public statement to that effect. I did find a 1980 Washington Post Newspaper article which identified the lead MOCO investigator (name in the article but not sure I can put here under WS rules about names) as having developed a rapport with the Lyon family since the day of the abduction.

<modsnip>

I am looking at it from the point of "what we know" and "what we think we know" defined from actual press releases. Keep in mind, that one does not automatically discredit the other-information not being released does not mean it is not there.

Also wondering about the second car--a luxury car-- which was at one time being sought in the area of Taylor's mountain. Does anyone know if it or the owner were ever located or have any more information on what it was about? 8/15/15 Historydetective63 posted:

"Let's not forget that LE has also mentioned a second car they have been looking for, a early '70's large, white, 4-door, possibly Chrysler, possibly a New Yorker. That was a huge car in those years, about 19 feet long and the trunk was big. . . the folks up there in those parts would remember such a flamboyant car!"

Interesting issues which seem to been "lost" in our minds for some time.

 

[bessie]

I did find a 1980 Washington Post Newspaper article which identified the lead MOCO investigator (name in the article but not sure I can put here under WS rules about names) as having developed a rapport with the Lyon family since the day of the abduction.

The rule is very simple. If you can link it (to a legitimate, mainstream media article), you can post it.

If you paste the link in your post, you can include a snip of the article and reference the content.

Utter disregard for this very important WS policy is ONE reason posts have been removed from this forum.

WS is a fact-based discussion board. Establishing "facts", vis a vis LE releases and news reports, should precede theory and speculation, not vice versa. No, MSM is not always accurate, but it's far more reliable than claims made by anonymous internet posters with zero accountability to the reader (though they do retain legal responsibility).

Cryptic posts intended to arouse curiosity and "invite" questions; and posts which reference private messages also violate TOS.

Simply stated:

1. No link, no post
2. If you can't talk about it, then don't.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2279603

That said, is there a link for the "luxury car"?