Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

[siriunsun]

A lot of people make threats about "suing for slander" without actually understanding all the elements of slander that make it a civil tort. In fact, where I live, an angry parent made some comments, in public, about a large proportion of students with criminal records who attend one of the local schools. The superintendent's secretary felt insulted, and begged the county prosecutor to have the parent arrested for slander! Because slander is a civil tort, an arrest was not forthcoming, and this made the entire staff at the school very sad. In order to prove a case against the parent for this particular civil tort, those offended would have been tasked with the impossible chore of going back in time and removing a couple of guns from the possession of said students, and teaching them not to drink and drive. It was already too late, and the judicial system had already reacted accordingly. The parent was also telling the truth about the situation, something no one else connected to the school had done. The other thingamajigger that was needed in order to moot court was a fiscal loss of some sort, which did not exist. A case for libel or slander was not established, and the superintendent's secretary was very unhappy about that. She, like many others, wanted to believe that there is a legal vehicle for retaliation against exposure to the truth, and there really isn't.

These discussions about Sheila and Katherine, here on Websleuths, changed directions dramatically in 2014. The threads reflecting the suspicions about unproven possibilities are still open for the posting of speculations; but the general direction of the case has a very specific focus. Now that charges have been filed, pulling other speculations into the cases of Sheila and Katherine Lyon involve the ability to fact-check everything and anything said. If a poster here knows about a definite possibility that has not been entertained by law enforcement, I am sure that the moderators for Websleuths would much rather see that information go directly to law enforcement than spilled here on a forum. That way, no defendant or potential defendant has the opportunity to tamper with evidence. It happens. Another thing that happens when evidence and testimony is not protected is the sometime threat to witnesses. Any witness to a criminal case should have the ability to testify without fear. Might the moderators here be attempting to protect that? It's not really a libel or slander issue, but I can certainly see why, at this point in the case, speculation that may have been okay ten years ago is not okay now.

 

[zensiert]

credit for the link to foureyes
http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/b...cle_8cfcaa6a-e4d6-5c2f-941b-06a703bad481.html

A few key excerpts:

"Engleking has admitted making false statements during his testimony, something he said he did in an effort to protect his sisters, and out of anger against investigators in Maryland, who he said have mistreated his family."
Sister(s)? is that a typo? Protect his sister from what; the rightful justice she’s got coming to her? Specifically, how has Maryland LE “mistreated his family”? So pursue legal recourse if MD LE has broken any laws in their investigation. His anger with MD LE is misdirected; as he should be angry with his brother-in-law.

"Engleking took the stand at his sentencing Tuesday and told Judge James Updike he regretted his actions from August. “I’d do it very differently,” Engleking said. “I’d be more cooperative. “I regret doing it.”
Dubious.

"A father of eight children, (including son Michael Engelking, currently in Federal prison for distribution of child *advertiser censored*)
Engleking said he suffers from a heart condition and had his first heart attack at 42 and his second at 45, and he now has six stents implanted. He said he’s completely deaf in one ear and only has partial hearing in the other. A prison sentence, he told Updike, would probably close his flagging Alexandria plumbing business."
Sob story.

"Prosecutors on Tuesday nevertheless sought an active sentence. Bedford County Deputy Commonwealth’s Attorney Wes Nance asked Updike to give Engleking 90 days in jail with suspended penitentiary time. “We believe it is ... very important that Mr. Engleking be held accountable for his actions,” Nance said. “He must understand the sobriety and the intensity of the necessity of truth before a grand jury.”
Well stated, Attorney Wes Nance.

"In delivering his sentence, Updike said he would follow the judicial guidelines in the case — probation without incarceration."
Karma could be third MI.

 

[gregjrichards]

Engleking said that his sister, Patricia Welch, told him that she was "mistreated" by law enforcement officers investigating the Lyon case. He said that he called his sister during the grand jury proceedings and asked her if she "knew anything" about the disappearance of the Lyon sisters.

"In open court Tuesday, Engleking did not reveal what his sister told him during their phone conversations but said that he was not originally forthcoming about the calls when questioned by the grand jury.

Since committing perjury Engleking has cooperated with prosecutors and their attempts to seek information.

"After all of this I realize the problems that it caused and the headache for myself and my family," Engleking told a judge Tuesday. "I regret doing it."

http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/M...eduled-to-be-sentenced-Tuesday-382075161.html

I can't believe the total lack of empathy towards the Lyon family who have endured 41 years of living hell. He should have co-operated from day 1.

Thank you Zeinsert for your update it is much appreciated.

 

[Schipperke]

It is amazing how limited our perspective can be when we have to weigh personal interests against the cost of doing what is right. The pain in your own finger from a splinter can overshadow a stake in the heart if the heart is not your own and you don't have to see or feel it.

For some, the passage of time becomes numbing like the horrors of September of 11, 2001, unless you suffered a lasting personal loss. While these two tragedies are much different, in my mind they share similar characteristics in the loss of innocent people. These two young ladies will forever have names and faces in my mind; I am sure the same is true for the many people in this area who have grieved with this family for over 40 years whether they knew them personally or not. I did not, but I want to see justice and truth prevail.

 

[zensiert]

...
"After all of this I realize the problems that it caused and the headache for myself and my family," Engleking told a judge Tuesday. "I regret doing it."

http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/M...eduled-to-be-sentenced-Tuesday-382075161.html

I can't believe the total lack of empathy towards the Lyon family who have endured 41 years of living hell. He should have co-operated from day 1.

Thank you Zeinsert for your update it is much appreciated.

Leslie speaks of the "headache" that his perjury caused him and his family. The poor guy's got hearing loss, a struggling business, cardiovascular disease... Maybe after all the undue stress of a perjury trial, he no longer enjoys eating rib-eye steaks like Brock Turner.
I think the issue is that some people just don't get it.

 

[Gruffin]

http://www.thevanishedpodcast.com/episodes/2016/6/8/episode-28-katherine-and-sheila-lyon

 

[foureyes]

http://www.thevanishedpodcast.com/episodes/2016/6/8/episode-28-katherine-and-sheila-lyon

Thank you for providing this today, Gruffin.

 

[SurrealisticSlumbers]

Hey, has anyone been on CNN recently? I was kind of upset to see that one of their "breaking stories" today on the website was, "D.B. Cooper Got Away With It" and in the thumbnail image, the sisters were there, plain as day. Naturally, I clicked on the story, on the official CNN website. When the link opened, I read nothing, absolutely nothing in the story, nor did I see anything in the video, that remotely mentioned the Lyons sisters. I am a little outraged that a supposedly reputable news source would use the sisters' image as "clickbait" for a story about the FBI closed case concerning the skyjacker. Just, wow. Is there any way we can complain to them?

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Check the CNN website. There will be a "contact us" link at the bottom of the page. Write a short and clear email making your point. Sign your name to it and ask for a reply or explanation. There is probably also a comments section on the online version of the article. You can also comment there to make the issue public. It's like throwing a pebble into a black hole but why not try?

Back when newspapers were the prime source of most actual news, our local paper had one of those branding lines about a trial that said "The Smith Trial" which implied that a person named Smith was on trial when in fact he was the victim. I wrote a scathing email straight to the editor and it was changed the next day to "The Smith Case" or some such that did not imply that the trial was of a (dead) black man killed by white cops. Totally unconscious, but racism nonetheless. (Changed the name here because it isn't pertinent.) But protest! Cable news is capable of the most egregious offenses and CNN is sinking rapidly to the bottom.

 

[SurrealisticSlumbers]

Check the CNN website. There will be a "contact us" link at the bottom of the page. Write a short and clear email making your point. Sign your name to it and ask for a reply or explanation. There is probably also a comments section on the online version of the article. You can also comment there to make the issue public. It's like throwing a pebble into a black hole but why not try?

Back when newspapers were the prime source of most actual news, our local paper had one of those branding lines about a trial that said "The Smith Trial" which implied that a person named Smith was on trial when in fact he was the victim. I wrote a scathing email straight to the editor and it was changed the next day to "The Smith Case" or some such that did not imply that the trial was of a (dead) black man killed by white cops. Totally unconscious, but racism nonetheless. (Changed the name here because it isn't pertinent.) But protest! Cable news is capable of the most egregious offenses and CNN is sinking rapidly to the bottom.

I know, that's exactly what I was thinking. Sadly, I was unable to find any sort of feedback form, or "contact us" link at the bottom of the page or anywhere on the site. This kind of thing upsets me, especially where a crime against children is concerned - if it's not terrible enough what happened to them, oh, let's go and posthumously exploit them to get publicity for a totally unrelated story! About an FBI closed case, no less! The MSM is absolutely shameless. I mostly get my news from word-of-mouth or NPR radio, but my computer (MacBook) automatically sends me breaking news updates from CNN that appear as a sort of pop-up box in the corner of my browser - Mac/Safari users will probably understand what I'm mentioning, otherwise I'm probably speaking Greek to the rest of y'all. Just feeling pretty disturbed that a major news outlet would shamelessly exploit the girls by using their image. I wouldn't want to be the parents or brother and see that.

 

[Roselvr]

Hey, has anyone been on CNN recently? I was kind of upset to see that one of their "breaking stories" today on the website was, "D.B. Cooper Got Away With It" and in the thumbnail image, the sisters were there, plain as day. Naturally, I clicked on the story, on the official CNN website. When the link opened, I read nothing, absolutely nothing in the story, nor did I see anything in the video, that remotely mentioned the Lyons sisters. I am a little outraged that a supposedly reputable news source would use the sisters' image as "clickbait" for a story about the FBI closed case concerning the skyjacker. Just, wow. Is there any way we can complain to them?

I just did 3 searches using their names and Lyons sisters, 5 older articles came up, nothing new.

 

[SurrealisticSlumbers]

I just did 3 searches using their names and Lyons sisters, 5 older articles came up, nothing new.

Yup - clickbait. Interestingly enough, now the thumbnail image is just the sketch of this skyjacker about whom the article was written... Trial starts this October, right?

 

[G&AMom]

According to the Washington Post, there's supposed to be a hearing today because the defense attorneys are asking for more time before the trial starts. I don't think this is anything new -- they've been quoting the large amount of documents in the case pretty much since Welch was arrested.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...rhp-moreheds_lyonsisters-815am:homepage/story

While I think it is a travesty to ask the Lyon family to wait even longer for justice, I suppose it would be an even bigger travesty if a conviction were overturned because of this issue.

 

[Fukiyama]

According to the Washington Post, there's supposed to be a hearing today because the defense attorneys are asking for more time before the trial starts. I don't think this is anything new -- they've been quoting the large amount of documents in the case pretty much since Welch was arrested.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...rhp-moreheds_lyonsisters-815am:homepage/story

While I think it is a travesty to ask the Lyon family to wait even longer for justice, I suppose it would be an even bigger travesty if a conviction were overturned because of this issue.

Welch is in prison for another crime, isn't he? Better to get the trial going ASAP before the principals die of old age and the chance for justice (human, not divine) is gone for good. If the courts reverse a guilty verdict later, Welch will still be in jail regardless.

 

[cgoodwin22]

Welch is in prison for another crime, isn't he? Better to get the trial going ASAP before the principals die of old age and the chance for justice (human, not divine) is gone for good. If the courts reverse a guilty verdict later, Welch will still be in jail regardless.

yep...this is what i'm worried about. I always worry about one of the Lyon parents passing away before justice is brought...i just hope this thing gets done sooner than later.

 

[Schipperke]

I have mixed feelings primarily because we all know LLW2 could not have pulled this off by himself, and yet no one else has been charged or named. I am hoping that LE is able to use this time to make the case complete, and identify and/or charge one or more co-defendants, or perhaps find some other case he may have been involved in.

In all honesty, I am not sure the case belongs in Bedford UNLESS they have proof that the girls were killed there. As far as I know, no one has positively identified either girl as being seen alive in Bedford. The abduction and, if I remember correctly, confession of observing at least one murder being committed in MD in may have more substance, again IMO. The thought has occurred to me about whether or not a trial on murder in Bedford would stop Montgomery County (or PG where Lloyd said one girls was killed) from filing whatever charges could be made in Maryland or does the murder trial in Bedford take away any penalties if the girls were killed elsewhere? Do know we know for sure that the girls were in Bedford? How did the case get assigned to Bedford? If I understand what has been said and written in media, Bedford WANTED this case.

I am completely baffled as to why Bedford would want to take on the expense of trying this case on their taxpayer $ unless the costs are being underwritten by another source. Lots of things just don't make sense IMO. If I was a taxpayer there, I would want justice, but I would also want to know that my tax money is not being wasted. Lloyd would have remained in prison in Delaware even if the charges had not been filed yet on this case. Why are Lloyd Welch and the case even in Bedford at this point? Was the justification for filing charges and moving Lloyd to Bedford simply and solely Lloyd's confession which he since recanted? Ever hear of the "tail wagging the dog" or "Brer Rabbit and the Briar Patch"?

As usual, I look deeper than the surface, but I am not going to argue with anyone about my right to throw these questions out for consideration by others. Everyone is free to accept or reject the logic in considering them.

 

[zensiert]

I have mixed feelings primarily because we all know LLW2 could not have pulled this off by himself, and yet no one else has been charged or named. I am hoping that LE is able to use this time to make the case complete, and identify and/or charge one or more co-defendants, or perhaps find some other case he may have been involved in.

In all honesty, I am not sure the case belongs in Bedford UNLESS they have proof that the girls were killed there. As far as I know, no one has positively identified either girl as being seen alive in Bedford. The abduction and, if I remember correctly, confession of observing at least one murder being committed in MD in may have more substance, again IMO. The thought has occurred to me about whether or not a trial on murder in Bedford would stop Montgomery County (or PG where Lloyd said one girls was killed) from filing whatever charges could be made in Maryland or does the murder trial in Bedford take away any penalties if the girls were killed elsewhere? Do know we know for sure that the girls were in Bedford? How did the case get assigned to Bedford? If I understand what has been said and written in media, Bedford WANTED this case.

I am completely baffled as to why Bedford would want to take on the expense of trying this case on their taxpayer $ unless the costs are being underwritten by another source. Lots of things just don't make sense IMO. If I was a taxpayer there, I would want justice, but I would also want to know that my tax money is not being wasted. Lloyd would have remained in prison in Delaware even if the charges had not been filed yet on this case. Why are Lloyd Welch and the case even in Bedford at this point? Was the justification for filing charges and moving Lloyd to Bedford simply and solely Lloyd's confession which he since recanted? Ever hear of the "tail wagging the dog" or "Brer Rabbit and the Briar Patch"?

As usual, I look deeper than the surface, but I am not going to argue with anyone about my right to throw these questions out for consideration by others. Everyone is free to accept or reject the logic in considering them.

To your point, Lloyd JR. did not pull "this off by himself"; correct. I've stated before that JR. was not the mastermind nor the executioner. Certainly he was a participant; at a minimum a rapist, perhaps even a murderer. However, even if JR did not actually commit the murders, he can be still prosecuted for murder. Last July, Bedford prosecutor Randy Krantz said about this case "A person who commits a felony, such as abduction, and during the course of that abduction, participates in, aids or abets, or by the very nature of them being involved in the abduction, can be held culpable if a death or deaths result from that.”
btw, they're not going to name a dead man as a person of interest, although they did search the Hyattsville house the dead man was renting at the time of the crimes. JR is not the big fish. He's more like the consolation prize, as he just happens to be one of the last few survivors that LE can hang this case on and ultimately close the book on a sad saga.

As for the case being tried in VA, it's on a list of inconsistencies with this case. But when you analyze it, it starts to make sense. In order for LE to obtain search warrants for a very expensive forensic dig on Taylor's Mountain, LE used statements from the surviving Parker's who lived at the house in 1975 where JR supposedly showed up unannounced with bloody army style duffel bags. So if LE's contention is that the girl's remains were in the bloody bags, you might assume they were killed elsewhere then brought to Taylor's Mountain for cremation. Then logically, you would think they were probably killed in Maryland. That is, unless you believe MDietz who claims to have seen the girls bound in the back of a station wagon near Manassas, or that a message from the girls in a bottle in a river was found by a fisherman. Perhaps LE has some proof that they were alive at some point, somewhere in VA? Or, maybe not.
We know that VA has the death penalty, so that would be an incentive to hold the trial there and maybe get a defendant to incriminate others in the case in order to spare their own life.
So, if LE cannot determine EXACTLY where the girls died, but they know ultimately that their remains were disposed of in VA on Taylor's Mountain, supposedly that gives VA the opportunity to prosecute for murder any person known to have possessed the remains in VA. When you think about it, theoretically the girls could have been killed in WV, TN or anywhere for the sake of argument. However, ..."Under Virginia law, a murder case can be brought in a place where authorities believe the slaying took place or where a victim’s remains may have been left." https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...87ebf8-2bc4-11e5-a5ea-cf74396e59ec_story.html

For sure, this is a tough case to prosecute and the Bedford prosecutors have their work cut out for them. But I ultimately think they will be successful. They don't have to prove that JR murdered the girls. If they can tie him to the initial abduction at Wheaton Plaza, and ultimately to disposing the remains on Taylor's Mountain; they should be able to convict him. To the first part, JR already placed himself at Wheaton Plaza back in 1975 during a police interview, and a female friend of the girls witnessed him following the girls at the mall right before they disappeared. He also placed himself at the scene of the abduction again in subsequent interviews with LE in 2013 and 2014. To the second part, LE has statements of two persons from the Parker house who said JR came to their home with bloody bags. These are the key reasons why JR is first up. Then, next comes RAW1.

 

[Schipperke]

You make some very good points with the pivot points always hinging on stories/evidence provided to LE by JR family members, except for MDietz.; and I believe his report only mentioned seeing Sheila (identified by the glasses) in Virginia. This raises another question about whether the girls met their fate together in the same place or in separate locations perhaps making them separate cases, perhaps in separate jurisdictions, instead of one combined case. At least one unsubstantiated and unidentified witness "wrote" in this forum that the girls had been separated when the last one was seen. Interesting is the fact that the "note in the bottle" was first disclosed by the same unsubstantiated and unidentified, self-claimed "witness." If the note story is a fact, perhaps it should give credence to other statements made While MDietz was identified, it appears that LE has classified his report as "unsubstantiated," to put it mildly. (Personally, I believe his account and his emotional and determined attachment to the case.) Another interesting similarity in the two non-family witness accounts is the fact that both said they had made reports which were not followed up on initially by appropriate LE contact and recordation in the file. It was only Dietz repeated contact with LE that made his personal report a part of the official record of the case, other than that it would have been classified as an "unidentified unsubstantiated report." Could there have been others as well?

I suppose the most important pivot in the case is what evidence, if any, was uncovered during the excavation. Now I am wondering if there is any benefit to separating the one trial into two separate trials to preserve future options on any evidence that might come to light later. I can see your point that a charge needed to be in place in order to justify the expense of the excavation. Thank you for sharing your views.

 

[Schipperke]

I posted this back in July on another thread, but got no response. Thought maybe I would throw it out there again. Times were different back in 1975. I am sure there had to be many companies in the carnival business then. Many organizations contracted with them as fund raisers. I remember being a parent volunteer at them, but I knew nothing about what the booking process involved. This one line of information just caught my eye in a book called, "Dead Men Do Tell Tales." Does anyone know of any of these companies that did the peep show attractions at carnivals and if they morphed into some other business that can be contacted today? As far as I can tell the company that LLW2 worked for has never been identified--or maybe I just missed it .

"Anyone ever hear of Koch Brothers Amusements of Wisconsin? I recently read that they used to buy interesting items and create carnival peep show attractions. It was mentioned in a book that they created one peep show by buying and using the car of Ed Gein (the killer on whose life the movie "Psycho" was based). The story note got me wondering about who LLW2 may have worked for and if they are still in business, or what other traveling carnival companies are around. Has been years since I have seen one of those peep show tents--but has been years since I have been to a carnival. LOL Do they still have peep show tents at carnivals?"

 

[zensiert]

Just an fyi for those following along. So far looks like Patricia Welch's perjury trial is still scheduled for 8-16-2016. We'll see if they kick the can down the road again.