Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

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I can't wait to see these babies get justice. Then I'm praying for justice for James Walker.
 
cgoodwin22 said:
such a powerful article...

http://www.salon.com/2015/08/09/the...wonders_why_the_biggest_clue_went_unexamined/
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Yes, thanks for linking that.

There is also a link, within that article, to a great but heart-wrenching 1975 article originally published in The Washington Star, in the early days after the girls' disappearance. I'm sure it has been linked before but I had never seen it, so I'm linking it here in case there are others who haven't:

http://www.teamcharlietoday.com/Blog.html?entry=kate-and-sheila-lyons-remembering
 
steveP120 said:
It's a very good article, but "right on with everything" is a bit too far for me since much of what happened will 40-years after the fact be impossible to prove or even make a good guess.

IF it turns out there was only one actor such as Lloyd, it will be impossible to prove at what stage in the sex crime murder happened. Lloyd on his own did not have the resources (car, safehouse) to hold anyone for more than a few minutes. I don't Lloyd alone had the resources to hold/kidnap two young girls alone; any one of the two could scream or run.

It's my GUESS that if Lloyd was acting alone, he lost control of the situation very fast, used violence to attempt to regain control and ended up with a crime-gone wrong. But my main point is that unless Lloyd gets religion and confesses to the worst possible case, we will never know what happened.

After being verbally confronted by a friend (who made the long-hair-man sketch) of the two girls for excessive staring, Lloyd may have also been in a bad mood.

In my opinion, the author appears to be projecting her own experience with long-term sexual abuse on the sisters.

Of course if several parties were involved with the actual murders, parties who actually had the resources to kidnap two girls for days, and the parties start turning on each other, we might have a good idea of what happend.
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You took a piece of what I said to make it fit with the girls; I was not talking about the girls I'm talking about what the writer said

From the article -
My life has been, in some ways, a shrine to silenced girls and women, to the Lyon Sisters, to the Darlenes, to trying to make sure the voices of women and girls are heard and respected. I’ve worked my whole life on these issues — at a rape crisis center, helping to start a national sexual violence hotline, volunteering to help create a writing program for incarcerated teens, most of whom were themselves abuse victims. I’ve worked on women’s international human rights and on bolstering assorted programs for the health and empowerment of women and girls and in support of fair treatment of women writers. In my own writing, too, I have focused on women and girls, on our stories, on the ways we are harmed, on the ways we are silenced and on our own power to change those things, on our ferocious strength.
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Roselvr said:
Have to say that she is right on with everything she writes; it is so true and why we are where we are today with a lot of different topics; because our parents were the secret generation.
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Roselvr said:
You took a piece of what I said to make it fit with the girls; I was not talking about the girls I'm talking about what the writer said

From the article -
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The title of the Salon article starts with "The girls who weren't saved: Haunted by the 40-year-old Lyon Sisters.."

The way I see it is that "right on with everything she writes" includes the Lyon sisters, and includes the questionable/unproveible claim that the girls could be saved, if just the MC cops were not sexists. (I agree the cops screwed up in 1975; we just don't know why.)

It's just very risky to say I agree with "everything" someone (Obama, Trump, some writer) says since there will likely be something you don't agree with everything and something someone said is factually wrong.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I think you may have meant to say now is that "the writer is right on with the causes she supports."
 
Almost lost in the good summary of the case and the writer's own stories is a dash of original reporting,

I (the writer) was able to locate Darlene (not her real name but the long-hair man sketch witness) and spoke with her by phone recently, and we have corresponded by email. She told me that on that day in 1975, the man we now know as Lloyd Welch was “just beaming on them, and walking too close to them. It caught the eyes. I didn’t say anything to them but I said to him, ‘Take a picture, it lasts longer.’ I knew there was something wrong with him, I knew he was a creep.”

The writer also found her real name, but did not publish it and found that she was 13 at the time in 1975

http://www.salon.com/2015/08/09/the...wonders_why_the_biggest_clue_went_unexamined/
 
Steve you make some valid points but I think you are being too much the skeptic and a contrarian about this. I can feel the writers pain about the Lyon girls but I think her attempt to link this horrible crime to some bigger marginalization or war on women is a little much.

I would like to think that MCPD did not mess up but it is very possible they dropped the ball on this. If anyone from the area remembers the DC snipers Muhammed/Malvo about 15 years ago, there was some major blunders on the local end, but (then) Chief Moose got a victory lap as if he broke the case when he did not.

My one theory is that LLW JR may have had a haircut before he came back and talked to the detectives and was not identified as the long hair who was eyeballing those children. The fact that he now puts himself at the scene makes this a moot point however.

Police work is never perfect, especially if you are dealing with what sounds like psychos who lie or minimize their roles in these kinds of crimes.

I am very curious if Joseph Wambaugh or Joe McGinnis can write a book that makes sense of this case and all of the loose ends.
 
gregjrichards said:
Me too there sadly must be more victims I doubt the Lyon sisters were the only victims.
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LE specifically said that they were not the only victims; but they were the "main victims" and there were many others. Of course LE knows so much more than they are able to state publicly. If you look at similar cases and statistics, this is not a one-off crime.
 
Does LE mean this family killled/raped other girls during that time? Were they local girls and no one noticed. Read t hat article from 1975-the mom doesn't come off too well in it
 
scriptgirl said:
Does LE mean this family killled/raped other girls during that time? Were they local girls and no one noticed. Read t hat article from 1975-the mom doesn't come off too well in it
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Please explain what you mean by 'the mom doesn't come off too well in it'.
 
WaynezWorld said:
My one theory is that LLW JR may have had a haircut before he came back and talked to the detectives and was not identified as the long hair who was eyeballing those children. The fact that he now puts himself at the scene makes this a moot point however.
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That is a good theory, and I am not sure it would be a moot point IF Llody got a haircut and tried to change his appearance RIGHT after the crime. Changing one's appearance to avoid detection is weak circumstantial evidence. I don't think anyone looked into it, but I have not seen any photos of Lloyd between (his) long-hair-man sketch and his arrest on an unrelated charge I think about two years later.

Being verbally confronted, "Take a photo; It'll last longer," Lloyd likely realized he could be identified by the Lyon sisters' friend, if not other people at the plaza that day.

Of course it's only WEAK circumstantial evidence since someone could decide to clean up to try to get a job.
 
scriptgirl said:
Does LE mean this family killled/raped other girls during that time? Were they local girls and no one noticed. Read t hat article from 1975-the mom doesn't come off too well in it
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It's a pretty good bet that Lloyd abused other girls, which may have not been noticed. Many girls, like the author of that Salon article did not report their abuse for years. The evidence, such as Lloyd's testimony, against other family members is much weaker and none have been charged at this time with any child abuse. In my opinion, it's very unlikely that other girls in the age range of 10 to 13 could be murdered and their disappearance not noticed.

To me, the mom came off as an average 70s mom. No mom is the fictional super-mom.
 
http://www.wset.com/story/29715814/u...ppear-in-court

UPDATE: Three Welch Family Members Ordered to Appear in Court

Bedford, VA - Three Welch family members are ordered to return to the Bedford County Court House next month. They're accused of lying to either police or the grand jury investigating the Lyon sisters case.



Leslie Engelking is charged with perjury. Amy Welch Johnson and Gladys Stangee are both charged with obstruction of justice.



The sheriff's office arrested them Friday.

The court set their arraignments for September 3 and and preliminary hearings for November 18.



Johnson is the granddaughter of Richard Welch. Stangee is his sister. Engelking his is brother-in-law. Richard Welch is a person of interest in the girls’ disappearance. His wife Patricia Welch was indicted on a perjury charge last month.

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Bedford, VA - Three Welch family members were arrested in Bedford Friday, accused of either lying to police or the grand jury investigating the 1975 disappearance of the Lyon sisters.

Leslie Engelking, from Alexandria, was taken in on a perjury charge. Engelking is the brother-in-law of Richard Welch. Richard Welch is a person of interest in the case. Engelking was released on $3,000 bond.

Richard's granddaughter Amy Welch Johnson is charged with obstruction of justice. She was released on $2,000 bond. Police took items from her home in Anne Arundel Co., MD last week, during a search for communication about the case.

Gladys Stangee, from Bedford, is also charged with obstruction of justice. She is Richard's sister.

Commonwealth's Attorney Randy Krantz can't say what specifically the three said or didn't say, but told ABC 13 it won't stop the investigative team from getting to the truth.

"We already have a pretty good idea of what the truth is and we were giving people the opportunity to tell us," said Commonwealth's Attorney Randy Krantz. "A person appearing has the absolute right not to incriminate themselves and they also have the right not to make a statement. But if they choose to make statements, they can't lie to the police in such a way that it impedes the investigation or obstructs justice."

Richard Welch's wife, Patricia Welch, was indicted in Bedford County last month for perjury. She is accused of lying to the same grand jurors who met Friday.

In July Richard's nephew Lloyd Welch, Jr., was indicted on two counts of first degree felony murder for the deaths of the sisters. Court documents show Lloyd implicated his uncle Richard.

Sheila Lyon, 12, and Katherine Lyon, 10, vanished from a Montgomery County, MD shopping center just days before Easter 1975. Investigators suspect their remains were burned on Taylor's Mountain in Bedford County.
 
OK so these are arraignments and preliminaries; not another appearance before the grand jury to answer questions under oath.

I believe that the wife and the brother-in-law could face substantial prison time for perjury related to a capital offense. The granddaughter and the sister probably face one year maximum.

It amazes me that Richard Allen Welch would put his family through this even if he is guilty. At his age, he could probably cut a deal to life in a prison convalescent home and give the Lyon family the small comfort they may receive knowing what really happened.
He could also volunteer to speak with psychiatrists and forensic investigators to maybe try to understand the minds of child killers.

No time like right now to come clean and be honest. This is NOT going to go away.
 
Has anyone considered that perhaps a wife or sister or MANY MISC RELATIVES or friends MAY have played a bigger role OVER A PERIOD OF TIME??!!

If there was a prostitution ring that was going on and perhaps is STILL going on in some way, the younger generation's participation, along with SUPPORT FROM the older generations may be what has been happening now, for a while.

That will be something the FBI has found out with other groups in the US and they have been VERY SUCCESSFUL in breaking these rings up, and if any are being trafficked and especially minors, these will be set free from their sexual slavery.
 
simplifymylife2014 said:
Has anyone considered that perhaps a wife or sister or MANY MISC RELATIVES or friends MAY have played a bigger role OVER A PERIOD OF TIME??!!

If there was a prostitution ring that was going on and perhaps is STILL going on in some way, the younger generation's participation, along with SUPPORT FROM the older generations may be what has been happening now, for a while.

That will be something the FBI has found out with other groups in the US and they have been VERY SUCCESSFUL in breaking these rings up, and if any are being trafficked and especially minors, these will be set free from their sexual slavery.
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My theory is two or more people in the family who liked to play with little girls.

The indicted brother-in-law Leslie Engleking has a son doing a long prison sentence for child *advertiser censored*. My guess it that some of the men in the family share a secret.

I don't think the females in the family are or were involved. It is just so atypical for females to engage in such deviancy.

I am thinking that the sister, wife and granddaughter have been fed a line of BS about what happened. Maybe some far fetched tale about how LLW JR did it all but has some secret on RAW or somehow RAW was tricked into implicating himself after the fact.

There is no excuse for the lack of co-operation on the part of Richard Allen Welch. He could probably be granted immunity for any other crime besides murder of the Lyon girls if he told the truth. He has chosen to let his family suffer and I don't know why they would be stupid enough to protect him.
 
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Jaycee Dugard's abductor also assisted or helped by his wife or a woman?

Or who here can relate any other cases where a spouse or other family or friends were all involved in abductions?
 
simplifymylife2014 said:
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Jaycee Dugard's abductor also assisted or helped by his wife or a woman?

Or who here can relate any other cases where a spouse or other family or friends were all involved in abductions?
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The Jaycee Dugard case I am not sure about, but there certainly have been cases of sick women helping sick men abduct children. I just think that it is much more rare. For one to keep a secret is one thing, to have more than one just does not seem as likely.

I have a few theories, nothing but speculation but they would explain some of the family behavior. One is that "Patricia Welch and Leslie Engleking know of another crime committed by Richard Welch. Maybe there is or was another body buried on Taylors Mountain that also came from a murder, but with more conventional circumstances ie. murder of a cheating spouse, murder in a card game/dope deal etc.. The kind of incident where one could enlist loyalty from a family member with more ease than asking to help someone cover the murder of two children".

My other theory is more of a scenario. "Richard and Lloyd Sr's wives have left the area for Easter and they have a few days to drink and raise hell. Lloyd Jr's wife is pregnant and isn't much fun for an 18 year old so he rides along. Thomas Welch Jr. is around for whatever reason. He is a juvenile and has to be watched by some adult. A few failed attempts to pick up women, whatever, and some of the men decide to go to Wheaton Plaza. Richard may have used the security guard ruse for a sex assault before and they decide to give it a go. Lloyd Jr. is the spotter, and picks two vulnerable girls in the mall. He signals Richard and they are abducted and assaulted, and held in Hyattsville. There are differences between the men as of what to do. Maybe the original intent was "rape and release" but one of the perps became concerned that they may be identified.
Conflict arises. Maybe Lloyd Jr was "supposed" to have taken the girls somewhere far away to drop them off "safely" but killed them against the wishes of Richard?"

(Theories in quotes and italics)

These are all just theories of course, but I think this could be a case of different levels of involvement by different family members. The least culpable was probably Thomas Welch Jr as he was merely a child himself riding along in the custody of his uncles. Lloyd Lee Jr. has been identified by his two cousins as the one with the bloody clothes and bloody bags that likely contained bodies, so I would say he is likely the one most responsible. Richard Allen Welch may fall in between: he was in for rape but not murder and his "stupid-nephew-Lloyd-Junior-went-too-far-and-messed-everything-up".

We never get the entire truth from many criminal cases as the witnesses and defendants are often dishonest and self-serving in their testimony. I think a conviction will be made of both of the Welchs. If there is more the story, I think it is time for the family and Richard Welch himself to step up to the plate.

EDIT- I also would explore the possibility that Richard Allen Welch has some dirt on either Engleking or his granddaughter. Engleking may know nothing about the Lyon murders, but may have been a fellow traveler in the world of kiddie *advertiser censored* with his son( who was convicted of some pretty serious charges). If RAW is aware of something that Engleking did, Engleking may be reluctant to talk about some "strange visit to Bedford, strange phone calls or family scuttlebutt" that appears suspicious. The sister and wife may be in the dark about the Lyon sisters but just have bought into the "witch hunt" defense.
 
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