Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

[Schipperke]

"one relative, not born in 1975, got a few months for telling other relatives not to cooperate with the police (obstruction of justice. You can take the Fifth Admendment for yourself, but not for other people."

I have never seen this information before about what she did that produced the charges. Is there a source for the stated information?

 

[steveP120]

I wonder if this will be the next beginning of the end. My reading of the article is that he still faces up to 10 years in prison at sentencing in June. I think what he is escaping is telling exactly what he lied about or hid. A trial would have opened up specifics for discussion and argument.

I am pretty sure, although it's just a guess based on what usually happens, that one of the conditions of the plea deal was that he would have to tell what he lied about (what he knew about Richard Welch and his conversations with his sister). Also, if anything, after pleading guilty (or being found guilty) one can no longer invoke the Fifth. I am also pretty sure that the plea deal, based on average plea deals for perjury, was for no jail time or very small jail time.

From: http://www.newsadvance.com/news/loc...cle_d442d69a-d4c5-11e5-901e-0fc356ce5468.html
"Krantz said Engleking testified in front of the grand jury twice.

Engleking was asked questions about his knowledge of Richard Welch and conversations with Richard Welch’s wife Patricia — Engleking’s sister — who also was asked about Lloyd Welch.

During the second set of testimony, Engleking was confronted about testifying falsely to the grand jury, and Engleking acknowledged he did so in an effort to protect his sisters, Krantz said."

 

[steveP120]

"one relative, not born in 1975, got a few months for telling other relatives not to cooperate with the police (obstruction of justice. You can take the Fifth Admendment for yourself, but not for other people."

I have never seen this information before about what she did that produced the charges. Is there a source for the stated information?

From memory, there was information in the search warrant for her home that indicated they had and were looking for more electronic communications with the persons of interest (in the original crime who were alive in 1975) and other relatives. But what they actually found was never released since she plead no contest.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Does anyone know whether LLW or any of the family lived in the New England area at anytime in the late 70s or early 80s? Do we at least have a timeline of where LLW lived since 1975?

 

[steveP120]

Does anyone know whether LLW or any of the family lived in the New England area at anytime in the late 70s or early 80s? Do we at least have a timeline of where LLW lived since 1975?

The FBI released a timeline of Lloyd Welch (not his family) in 2014 when he was first named as a person of interest. At a glance, I did not see any location in New England, and I don't know if the FBI updated and released a new timeline. It is my understanding that they were trying to get people to come forward to fill in the blanks in the timeline. but I don't recall a new timeline being released.

https://www.fbi.gov/baltimore/press...napping-of-lyon-sisters-others-victims-sought

 

[zensiert]

Link, please.

There are some people that will attempt to obfuscate, misdirect, and hide the truth.
So again, I always come back to this:

Montgomery County Assistant Police Chief Russ Hamill said, “I believe we’ll get to the bottom of where many crimes occurred by the end of the investigation.”
http://hyattsvillelife.com/hyattsvi...nterest-in-1975-disappearance-of-lyons-girls/

There’s people out here in these communities that know what happened back then and they carry it with them to this day,” he said. “Two little girls were the main victims but there are many others ….”
http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/b...cle_711f8aca-4394-5aa5-96da-878b6e340c19.html

The key word is many. There are many crimes, many victims, and many participants.

 

[foureyes]

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lyn...n-taking-place-on-taylors-mountain-r/28083490

"I just want to make it absolutely clear. We will find out the entire truth. We know a lot already, but we're going to find out the entire truth of those people involved and we will bring them to justice,” (Captain) Francke said.

http://wset.com/archive/update-new-phase-begins-in-lyon-sisters-investigation

Sheriff Mike Brown with the Bedford County Sheriff's Office says, "Hopefully we'll book up several tiers of cells."

Much obliged for your comment. I appreciate the ability to thank you for Post #526 (subject to change) here on Websleuths.

 

[steveP120]

There are some people that will attempt to obfuscate, misdirect, and hide the truth.
So again, I always come back to this:

Montgomery County Assistant Police Chief Russ Hamill said, “I believe we’ll get to the bottom of where many crimes occurred by the end of the investigation.”
http://hyattsvillelife.com/hyattsvi...nterest-in-1975-disappearance-of-lyons-girls/

There’s people out here in these communities that know what happened back then and they carry it with them to this day,” he said. “Two little girls were the main victims but there are many others ….”
http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/b...cle_711f8aca-4394-5aa5-96da-878b6e340c19.html

The key word is many. There are many crimes, many victims, and many participants.

Given the long criminal history of Lloyd Welch, it's a good bet that he committed many other crimes with many victims, but there is NOTHING in your linked articles that anyone other than Lloyd participated in any sex crime. The Welch family members that recently plead no contest to perjury or obstruction of justice were for crimes committed last year.

 

[steveP120]

I wonder if this will be the next beginning of the end. My reading of the article is that he still faces up to 10 years in prison at sentencing in June. I think what he is escaping is telling exactly what he lied about or hid. A trial would have opened up specifics for discussion and argument.

The AP reports that
"Bedford County Commonwealth's Attorney Randy Krantz said during a court Tuesday that 69-year-old Leslie Joseph Engleking Sr. has been cooperative since being accused of making false statements to investigators."
http://www.newsplex.com/home/headli...yon-Sisters-Disappearance-Case-368984521.html
so I doubt that Engleking Sr. has anything to hide.

I would also GUESS that since his sentencing (likely already agreed on as something small) is in June before the trial of Lloyd, he is not a valuable witness. If he had something valuable to say, like Lloyd confessed to him, the prosecution would hold the perjury charge over his head until he testified "honestly" in the prosecution's opinion, prior to letting him off lightly on the perjury charges.

It's also notable that despite a plea of no contest, the judge did not YET convict him.
"The judge did not convict Engleking today but did order a pre-sentencing report, and will make a ruling at that hearing in June."
http://wset.com/news/local/welchs-relative-admits-to-lying-to-a-grand-jury
which COULD be because the state did not present enough evidence of a lie - It could have been a lie of omission or a lie about a non-material fact. Or he could be being directed into a program where there is no criminal record.

 

[foureyes]

Most Importantly, thank you, for being the FIRST to offer readers the news link of L. Engelking pleading no contest in court early today.
In my opinion "many crimes" is what Chief Hamill stated. I wish to offer up three more links for your consideration.

"The warrant says a relative of Richard Welch says Welch confided to him that he and other family members raped, murdered and disposed of the bodies of Sheila and Katherine Lyon,http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/201...chard-welch-to-lyons-sisters-murder/31059729/

"Neighbors told investigators they remember a fire burning on the property for several days around the same time as the girls’ disappearance."Akers recalled Welch asking her to wash clothes, which were stained red eleanor roy july 15 2015 Reuters http://www.newsadvance.com/news/loc...cle_9ece6dec-2b0d-11e5-ad30-ab8c83fd1727.html

But Thursday police stressed that more people are under scrutiny.*"Richard Welch remains a person of interest in this case, as do other people, and I underline other people," said Bedford Sheriff Mike Brown.
[…]
As News4's Mark Segraves reports, police are now looking into whether Lloyd Welch may be tied to other missing girls. (possible connections thread)
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...-in-Lyon-Sisters-Disappearance-315758131.html by David Culver 7/15/15

I hope I've aroused your interest, without being enigmatic. Again, thank you for immediately bringing attention to today's court activities for related media links and updates.

 

[steveP120]

"The warrant says a relative of Richard Welch says Welch confided to him that he and other family members raped, murdered and disposed of the bodies of Sheila and Katherine Lyon,http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/201...chard-welch-to-lyons-sisters-murder/31059729/

This is an example of how a vague and/or slightly inaccurate statement gets exaggerated.

The original warrant makes it clear that the "relative of Richard Welch" is none other than Lloyd Welch, and it's one of many stories Lloyd told.
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wset/SKMBT_60115071517110.pdf
The other relative who was 10 or 11 at the time at first adamantly said Lloyd's story was outright untrue, a lie, but later was not so sure about events 40 years ago and even remembers two girls of about the same age forty years ago.
Even if you want to believe Lloyd's story, where of course Lloyd is innocent, you are left with one sex criminal, not a group.

 

[bessie]

Our differing of opinion is not going to change things in the handling of this case.

Mine is still that FACTS ARE FACTS. Justice should not be about who can manipulate or hide them better than the other.

So then we do agree! :scale:

 

[Schipperke]

So then we do agree! :scale:

about some things----YES!

 

[foureyes]

Even if you want to believe Lloyd's story, where of course Lloyd is innocent, you are left with one sex criminal, not a group.

If I understand post #531 correctly ,"LLOYD L WELCH JR" is innocent until proven guilty, perhaps just a sex criminal, and there is No group. . . . as well as Mr. Engelking's admitted lie may ONLY be a lie of omission ; then perhaps this sex felon , as well as family members may possibly be vindicated. After all, this sex felon was up for parole with years off for good behavior, supportive of your position IMO.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...85d766-292d-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html I dislike being a toady sycophant to past press releases but there is no other venue, as there is a gag order in place with little to no news for the Lyon Sisters to be published between now and the trial.

There is a group, and I can live with being the "unpopular comment" as long as I abide by the WS rules . There has been tremendous progress in this case since the 35th anniversary of the Lyon Sisters Abduction.

 

[steveP120]

If I understand post #531 correctly ,"LLOYD L WELCH JR" is innocent until proven guilty, perhaps just a sex criminal, and there is No group. . . .

Just to be clear, regardless if one believes Lloyd or not, he, like anyone, is considered innocent until proven guilty.

I think Lloyd's most common story is that beyond looking at the girls at Wheaton Plaza, he did nothing and knows nothing. Despite being a convicted criminal and habitual liar, there is a chance this could be true.

The one Lloyd-story that I was referring to is the one where his uncle was the responsible, and Lloyd did nothing (except maybe not turn his uncle in years ago; bad behavior, but not a crime). I really doubt this story, and I doubt the police believed it either, but it may have been (barely) credible enough to check out; hence the search warrant and search.

 

[foureyes]

Crowd sourcing and LE are at odd ends- like oil and water, they don't mix. Although social media can be a tremendous tool , in the wrong hands cyber criminals go corporate, there's no enforced standards, invasion of privacy is a problem.
Take automated license plate readers for automobiles for example. It may be a boon to the DEA, but websites selling ALPR database info to anyone leads to crowd sourcing amongst criminals knowing where the police are at any given time. And if a car is parked in a driveway, well that's linked to the plate. Public. In court rooms, Crowd sourcing/blogging cold cases may contribute to the CSI effect, along with issues of possible coerced confessions, rejecting evidence, guilt by association, witnesses who heard about the crime, but didn't see it, etc. Crowd sourcing may put crucial information in an exploitable position.

" The list details travel expenses and time lawyers spent on the case. Welch’s lawyers are concerned "it would detail the defense’s strategy and possible witnesses. The defense is concerned if the list is revealed Welch would not have a fair trial."
http://wsls.com/2016/01/29/pre-trial-motions-hearing-scheduled-in-lyon-sisters-case/

Again, everyone is entitled to a fair trial. WS is a great site with many other threads to explore and help missing people find their way home, meaningful posts, and unfortunately there's a massive amount of missing and exploited children to comment on.

 

[Schipperke]

I am less concerned about what anyone has to say, including LLW, than I am with what the evidence can support. Any statements at this point would be based on 40-year-old recollections which should produce some kind of physical evidence somewhere. When LLW opened his mouth claimed involvement and/or knowledge of the crime--abduction and/or murder--he opened himself and anyone he named as an associate up to investigation, including a child. If you are only seeing statements as evidence, in many ways, I can see RAW (and TTW2 ) as a bigger victim than LLW. That being said, based on statements and actions, I don't see either RAW or LLW2 as completely innocent and/or uninvolved in this case. IMO, that ship sailed a couple of years ago. The questions remain, "Who is guilty, of what?" And, equally important, "Where are Sheila and Katherine?"

 

[steveP120]

"Where are Sheila and Katherine?"

Hopefully the police know and have evidence, or it's going to be a very difficult no-body, 40-year-old murder case.

No concrete evidence, such as DNA evidence, has been released to the public to date, and because of the gag-order (on the prosecution and defense, not us) it's unlikely any information will be released prior to the trial or plea deal if any.

I would suggest just being patient.

 

[WaynezWorld]

Glad to see some movement on this case, I am very curious about what it actually means.

News reports say that Engleking is "cooperating" which is a word with a lot of wiggle room in criminal cases. Perhaps he is not kicking and screaming and that qualifies as "cooperation", or maybe he has information helpful with the case. A "no contest" plea still results in a felony conviction, and I am not sure why such a plea would come willingly and without a fight. I could see a scenario where Engleking's involvement may not have been in the 1975 abduction but in some cover up long, long after the fact.

Patricia Jean Welch's, Gladys Stangee's and Amy Johnson's trials are in April, it is possible that Engelking's cooperation means testifying against them with evidence of their perjury or obstruction, but not the actual murder itself.

I think law enforcement is making progress in flipping the remaining witnesses.

 

[steveP120]

Patricia Jean Welch's, Gladys Stangee's and Amy Johnson's trials are in April, it is possible that Engelking's cooperation means testifying against them with evidence of their perjury or obstruction, but not the actual murder itself.

I think law enforcement is making progress in flipping the remaining witnesses.

Glady Stangee and Amy Johnson already pleaded no contest or entered an Alford plea (no contest more or less) and were sentenced to no time in jail and three months respectively. Amy Johnson is appealing her "harsh" three months sentence, and I don't know what Stangee is appealing.
http://www.newsadvance.com/news/loc...cle_1fc37fec-8e2c-11e5-96af-9becb7b33a5f.html

The timing of the perjury charges and the fact that there are perjury charges SUGGESTS to me that these witnesses know nothing about the actual murder. If a person say actually saw Lloyd come home with a bloody knife the day of the murder, the prosecution would 1) hold the potential perjury charge over them until after Lloyd's trial to ensure they continue to cooperate and 2) not give their witness a criminal record. The negotiating power of any witness to the murder would enable them to get a perfect deal in my opinion.

Without immunity, I can't see how anyone guilty in any murder can be compelled to testify before a grand jury since there is a constitutional right against self incrimination.