Sidebar Discussion

[LambChop]

Funny, I thought that too. It seemed plausible that she both chloroformed and duct taped Caylee. This is macabre, but I hope, if this was the case, that she did this, so Caylee had no awareness

I just didn't need to know exactly how Caylee was killed or neglected to death or whatever. All the evidence provided and sewn together the way it was gave a convincing enough idea that Casey did something to her, was responsible for her death and should be found guilty of it.

I think it was mentioned early on that chloroform only knocks a person out for about 5 minutes (of course there was enough in KC's trunk to kill Caylee) but the duct tape might have been to finish the job. So I think it is possible both were used, chloroform to control Caylee if she fought back and duct tape to make sure she was dead. jmo

 

[Murphismo]

On an off note, a verdict in the Amanda Knox trial is due by 11:00 Pacific time here in the states.....

 

[LinTX]

While reading the autopsy report again, I noticed something that might help with the duct tape questions. Yes, it is "opinion", but certainly an educated one.

Dr. Shultz (BBM)

Opinion: Considering the dispersal of the skeletal remains, it would not be expected to find the mandible in this position unless something affixed the mandible in this position prior to decomposition and the hair matting forming. In skeletal cases involving surface depositions, the mandible and cranium are normally found disarticulated because there is nothing to hold the mandible in place after the soft tissues decomposes. Based on the position of the tape and mandible, it can be inferred that the mandible remained in this position because the tape held it in place prior to the hair forming into a matt on the base of the skull.

From this, it sounds to me as if the tape was not just attached to the outer layer of the hair mass, but embedded within it. That means it was there before the flooding occurred.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Thanks Ranch :seeya:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/Library/CMA/reports/autopsyreport.pdf



My bolds and font bigging, of course.

"Over" is the operant word, here.

Rossva, what you describe in your post is "Beside" the skull. The autopsy report tells the story and there isn't really and "what if's" about it.

On page 9 (6448) of this report.
the bones have sandy, silty dirt on their surfaces, except for the skull.

Why do all the bones found in area A have sandy, silty dirt on them except for the skull?
Any ideas as to how that is possible?

 

[Aedrys]

Well said PeteyGirl. Just the fact that they were able to detect any chloroform weeks after the car was left at the Amscot suggests a large initial amount was left in that trunk. Any small amounts would have evaporated long before the test were done. IMO.

*head desk* I have said this I don't know how many times. Funny how that point keeps getting missed by some people. If we don't have the how nailed down, then the chloroform doesn't exist.

Sorry, not mad at you, just at those who keep repeatedly missing this point and the point of the mandible being in the exact same anatomic position, only possible with the duct tape there!

I feel like I need a hammer to nail it into some people minds...

 

[pcrum12]

On page 9 (6448) of this report.
the bones have sandy, silty dirt on their surfaces, except for the skull.

Why do all the bones found in area A have sandy, silty dirt on them except for the skull?
Any ideas as to how that is possible?

Wish we knew the answer to that one.

 

[Aedrys]

On page 9 (6448) of this report.
the bones have sandy, silty dirt on their surfaces, except for the skull.

Why do all the bones found in area A have sandy, silty dirt on them except for the skull?
Any ideas as to how that is possible?

Because animals dragged around the other bones, but not the skull? Why is this even debatable? The silt doesn't make a darn difference about the duct tape or anything else with the skull.

 

[pcrum12]

*head desk* I have said this I don't know how many times. Funny how that point keeps getting missed by some people. If we don't have the how nailed down, then the chloroform doesn't exist.

Sorry, not mad at you, just at those who keep repeatedly missing this point and the point of the mandible being in the exact same anatomic position, only possible with the duct tape there!

I feel like I need a hammer to nail it into some people minds...

Maybe someone put it BACK in the anatomical postion.

 

[Aedrys]

Maybe someone put it BACK in the anatomical postion.

Uh sorry, but no. That duct tape was matted into her hair. It had to be cut out for crying out loud. There's no way someone unstuck the tape, realigned her mandible, then restuck the duct tape. And if there is an insinuation that RK did that, that is just crazy. No way that happened, certainly not by RK.

 

[pcrum12]

Uh sorry, but no. That duct tape was matted into her hair. It had to be cut out for crying out loud. There's no way someone unstuck the tape, realigned her mandible, then restuck the duct tape. And if there is an insinuation that RK did that, that is just crazy. No way that happened, certainly not by RK.

Who said someone HAD to unstick the tape? The tape was matted in the hair not stuck to the mandible. So why would anyone have to unstick the tape to realign the mandible?

ETA: And as far as RK goes, which story of his do we believe? He told a different story each time he spoke, even on the witness stand. I go with NONE of them. JMO.

 

[com n sense]

Maybe someone put it BACK in the anatomical postion.

I remember during the trial that Dr Shultz had a skull on the stand with him. At one point the mandible came loose & he tried to put it back in place. He even had trouble putting the mandible in place. He never did get it & gave up.

As I watched him on the stand fiddling with it I thought there is no way the jury would ever believe RK put that tape on the skull when a Dr is have such a difficult time doing it.
OMH, when I think of all the blunders during this trial that spoke the truth I am still in shock she walked.
It really was a no brainer trial.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Because animals dragged around the other bones, but not the skull? Why is this even debatable? The silt doesn't make a darn difference about the duct tape or anything else with the skull.

Why is does it matter whether or not the bones had silt, but the skull did not, perhaps because,

It snowed last night, and this morning I went outside and my car, the sidewalk and the ground were covered with snow, as were 3 newspapers from previous days that I had been to lazy to pick up, just as all the bones were covered with silt. Except for one thing, today's newspaper laying near my front porch had no snow on it, just like the skull had no silt on it. It is obvious, the newspaper was tossed near my porch after the snow had fallen and therefore had no snow on it. What is the obvious answer as to why there was no silt on the skull, that makes the fact that there was no silt on the skull irrelevant?

 

[KarmaGet'em]

Why is does it matter whether or not the bones had silt, but the skull did not, perhaps because,

It snowed last night, and this morning I went outside and my car, the sidewalk and the ground were covered with snow, just as all the bones were covered with silt. Except for one thing, the newspaper laying near my front porch had no snow on it, just like the skull had no silt on it. It is obvious, the newspaper was tossed near my porch after the snow had fallen and therefore had no snow on it. What is the obvious answer as to why there was no silt on the skull, that makes the fact that there was no silt on the skull irrelevant?

Better hypothetical - It snowed last night, and this morning I went outside and my Volkswagen Beetle in the driveway had no snow on it. However, the driveway and sidewalks and even the mornings newspaper was covered in snow.
Should I assume that someone placed my Volkswagen Beetle in the driveway after it snowed? Or should the possibility be considered that the elements (wind and sun) helped to naturally clear the car of snow whereas the newspaper was not as exposed (being smaller and flatter). Perhaps the snow slid off of the car due to its round shape. IIRC, there was silt/sand INSIDE the skull, was there not? (according to Dr. Spitz)

 

[LambChop]

Who said someone HAD to unstick the tape? The tape was matted in the hair not stuck to the mandible. So why would anyone have to unstick the tape to realign the mandible?

ETA: And as far as RK goes, which story of his do we believe? He told a different story each time he spoke, even on the witness stand. I go with NONE of them. JMO.

I think JB cleared RK from any involvement and it is clear he did not know KC. To further smear him makes no sense at all. It's clear from the jailhouse tape KC knew that was Caylee LE found because KC put her there. And lacking any other viable explanation it appears the duct tape was placed over Caylee's face. KC will have to live with that the rest of her life because no one with an ounce of common sense will believe it happened any other way. There is no other logical explanation. Everyone has tried to present one here on WS's and failed. It is what it is. KC is free to walk but not free from what she has done. It will haunt her till her dying day and she never be truly free from the consequenses of her actions.

I have seen nothing to date to change my mind from what Dr. G presented in court. Dr. Spitz, while cute and I mean he really was cute, was underinformed. Had he been there for the State he would have had all the information and we would have had a different report. No sense trying to kid ourselves it was obvious he had no explanation for the jaw bone being in place other than the duct tape. And now the jailhouse tape really makes him look foolish to have come up with his reasonings. Defense played him good.

No reason to defend KC's actions now, she's free and we all pretty much know what happened with the duct tape and the chloroform. To try and convince ourselves of something different is a waste of our good time. The mystery still is "why". Until we find out why we will never know what to watch for to help prevent this from happening again to another child. That is what we want to know.....WHY?????

Goals we set should be to find out why and what we can do to stop people from killing their children. There is a better way to resolve their issues without it costing you the life of your child. jmo

 

[pcrum12]

I think JB cleared RK from any involvement and it is clear he did not know KC. To further smear him makes no sense at all. It's clear from the jailhouse tape KC knew that was Caylee LE found because KC put her there. And lacking any other viable explanation it appears the duct tape was placed over Caylee's face. KC will have to live with that the rest of her life because no one with an ounce of common sense will believe it happened any other way. There is no other logical explanation. Everyone has tried to present one here on WS's and failed. It is what it is. KC is free to walk but not free from what she has done. It will haunt her till her dying day and she never be truly free from the consequenses of her actions.

I have seen nothing to date to change my mind from what Dr. G presented in court. Dr. Spitz, while cute and I mean he really was cute, was underinformed. Had he been there for the State he would have had all the information and we would have had a different report. No sense trying to kid ourselves it was obvious he had no explanation for the jaw bone being in place other than the duct tape. And now the jailhouse tape really makes him look foolish to have come up with his reasonings. Defense played him good.

No reason to defend KC's actions now, she's free and we all pretty much know what happened with the duct tape and the chloroform. To try and convince ourselves of something different is a waste of our good time. The mystery still is "why". Until we find out why we will never know what to watch for to help prevent this from happening again to another child. That is what we want to know.....WHY?????

Goals we set should be to find out why and what we can do to stop people from killing their children. There is a better way to resolve their issues without it costing you the life of your child. jmo

I respectfully disagree. RK and Casey not knowing each other is irrelevant and doesn't prove anything. RK manipulated the evidence, period. Therefore, that evidence is unreliable. All JMO.

 

[LambChop]

I respectfully disagree. RK and Casey not knowing each other is irrelevant and doesn't prove anything. RK manipulated the evidence, period. Therefore, that evidence is unreliable. All JMO.

If that is what you believe so be it. It changes nothing. Caylee is dead by her mother's hand and you will never convince the masses any differently because of the one fact that the mandible was still in place. No excuses CA can come up with to defend her daughter can change that fact. jmo

 

[logicalgirl]

On an off note, a verdict in the Amanda Knox trial is due by 11:00 Pacific time here in the states.....

Thank you - I was just trying to work out the time difference. It is amazing how much press it is getting here in my area. Quite the media machine.....
I'd forgotten about the part of her covering her ears while Meredith screamed as she was being killed, and accusing her former boss. Weird testimony - not surprised she was initially found guilty. I can't even guess at what verdict is coming down now.

 

[logicalgirl]

If that is what you believe so be it. It changes nothing. Caylee is dead by her mother's hand and you will never convince the masses any differently because of the one fact that the mandible was still in place. No excuses CA can come up with to defend her daughter can change that fact. jmo

I was just reading your answer LambChop and smiling because I remember Dr. Spitz in court "trying to manipulate the mandible and if you remember - he dropped it.....
A mandible isn't something that stays in place without "help"....

 

[logicalgirl]

Wish we knew the answer to that one.

But it did - the autopsy reports talks of Dr. G. washing the silt out of the skull...

 

[pcrum12]

But it did - the autopsy reports talks of Dr. G. washing the silt out of the skull...

I do recall that now that you mention it.