Simple question...

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Same writer?

  • Yes

    Votes: 111 81.6%

  • No

    Votes: 25 18.4%
  • Total voters
    136

New Posts

Ames,

I respect you to no end, but in this I have to disagree with the coroner at least a little (LOL)... It looks like a wound/burn that was healing and someone drew over it. Did they test it for ink or merthiolate (yes people still used it in the 90's).
picture.php


picture.php


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1329&pictureid=11580

I'm really not trying to be contrary (lol) really, but it does not look like a simple drawing to me. Curious to know what anyone else thinks?
 
Is the one picture fake? Yet there is a blister in all of them. It looks to me like a healing burn.
 
Agatha_C said:
Thats not a heart in JBR hand! Am I the only one that didn't know this? I was googling various things and found myself in FFJ, they had photo's I had never seen. For those that have never seen them either I'll include the link.

The hand photo.. Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice

Menu for photo's.. http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=16

Its not a heart and it does not look like its drawn. It looks like its scratched on or burned on.

Sorry to open an old thread, but I didn't know where to put this and here seemed right.
Click to expand...


Heyya Agatha_C.

Ty for posting photos from ffj.
The mark on her neck is so unusual.

The unusual circular marks; I've had similar injury, a perfect circle black purplish mark. It was from a quick hard pinch that resulted in a blood blister.
 
Absolutely the same writer.

And in fact although clearly both samples represent the same letter of the alphabet, I had to look for a few seconds to figure out exactly which letter it is. (It's an "E", I see now, but for a second I thought it was a "G".)

I have never seen anyone write the letter "E" like that. What are the chances that PR and the 'intruder' both wrote their "E's" this way? Infinitesimal. Clearly the same writer, and anyone who says they don't look like they were written by the same person is in denial.
 
Tad,

It does look like a pinch mark!

If you take these hand pictures and blow them up, you can see what looks like a dried scratch making the bowl of what would be the bottom of the heart. The skin at the top of the heart, looks like the shiny pink skin found under the scab of a burn.

I know everyone has gone over this a million times and explained it, debated and worked it out and I respect every one of you. I still think this is a wound that's just about healed. Now what that has to do with the murder I don't know, but is it possible that what burned her hand also burned her face as I have never bought the stun gun theory (stop groaning...LOL).

Okay, waiting for the "You're insane" comments...
 
I don't see a blister. To me, it looks like a heart drawn by a child. Sorry.

Keep in mind that these photos show the hand of a child who has been dead for more than 18 hours. Dead bodies are blotchy. That doesn't mean that there cannot be a blister, burn or other wound on a dead person. BUT the coroner must note these things even more so in a child death, and even more so in a child murder. Mayer didn't do everything perfectly. But I believe he would have noted any blister or burn if they were there.
The "heart" is subjective. Some think it is, some don't. That isn't as important as whether it is related to the crime or not. JB played with kids at the White's. People saw her there. JB was a very pretty little girl. People LOOK at pretty little girls. I can't believe no one would have noticed a red ink drawing on her palm. But...I CAN believe no one in LE asked any of the White's guests (including the children) wether or not they noticed anything like that on the palm of JB's hand.
 
Mia said:
Absolutely the same writer.

And in fact although clearly both samples represent the same letter of the alphabet, I had to look for a few seconds to figure out exactly which letter it is. (It's an "E", I see now, but for a second I thought it was a "G".)

I have never seen anyone write the letter "E" like that. What are the chances that PR and the 'intruder' both wrote their "E's" this way? Infinitesimal. Clearly the same writer, and anyone who says they don't look like they were written by the same person is in denial.
Click to expand...

That's putting it lightly.
 
Agatha_C said:
Thats not a heart in JBR hand! Am I the only one that didn't know this? I was googling various things and found myself in FFJ, they had photo's I had never seen. For those that have never seen them either I'll include the link.

The hand photo.. Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice

Menu for photo's.. http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=16

Its not a heart and it does not look like its drawn. It looks like its scratched on or burned on.

Sorry to open an old thread, but I didn't know where to put this and here seemed right.
Click to expand...

Agatha C....I did not know this! It supports what I just wrote about my curling iron theory in "The Red Turtleneck" thread!
Here's my speculation:

As soon as the family got home from the Whites...PR insisted the family pose for the family Christmas photos in front of their tree in their co-ordinating outfits which PR had purchased especially for that purpose. They hadn't gotten to take the photos before they went to the Whites because JB had had a tantrum about the red turtleneck and they'd been running late. The kids had a quick snack (pineapple for JB and tea for BR) while PR and JR got ready. When JR was ready, (didn't take long) he went downstairs and put JB's drink in a sippy cup. He sent the kids to change and when they were dressed they met Dad downstairs and started to build BR's new toy. PR had plugged in the curling iron and while it was heating she put on her own make-up. When her make-up and hair were done she called JB to the bathroom so PR could fix her hair....

PR was primping JB for the photo shoot... everyone else was already ready! They were all in their Christmas PHOTO clothes. JB had on the red turtleneck, black pants, (and maybe something else red PR "fussed" with?) and JB had on those cute SHOES PR liked her to wear for pictures. JB was NOT wearing the boots she wore to the Whites. (JR said he removed her shoes)

PR was trying to quickly curl JB's hair with a very HOT CURLING IRON and JB was being obstinate. She just wouldn't sit still. Everyone else was ready. They were all waiting on her. And they had to get up soooo early...PR just wanted a couple of photos of everyone in their Christmas outfits... Photos were so important to PR! Was that too much to ask?...to get some photos on Christmas in their Christmas outfits in front of their tree in their own home? They couldn't do it tomorrow. They wouldn't be home. PR didn't even want to go on the trip...It was so much extra work for her... all that traveling. If she was going to get those pictures...it had to be right now! She was still reeling from the huge disappointment over the doll. JB had snubbed her present! It was a present PR took so much pleasure in planning. She had hardly been able to wait to see the look on JB's face. For what???!!! JB didn't even seem to care about it. JB didn't think it even looked like her! How could she think that? After all that planning? Perhaps... JB was still refusing to wear the turtleneck..."Come, on JB, PLEASE!" "We don't have the time for this." "You kids should already be in bed"...

JB wasn't cooperating and PR was fed up. She was tired and disappointed and frustrated and frazzled and finally she lost it, she was absolutely furious... in a fit of rage, PR held the hot tip of that curling iron to JB's beautiful little face... as the tip of that hot curling iron seared into her cheek, JB let out a blood curdling scream. JB grabbed the barrel of the curling iron with her little hand scorching it as she desperately tried to pull that burning hot curling iron off of her face. Then...reeling in pain from her scorched face and hand, JB lurched back (or PR angrily shoved BR away) and JB's head went crashing into the (tub? toilet?) and it hit with such force the impact fractured her skull....
they never "meant" it to happen...

This is all speculation on my part. The feasibility of it depends on the evidence... Could the face mark possibly be a burn from the tip of a curling iron being held in place on JB's face? Could the "heart" on the hand possibly be from being scorched from JB breaking one arm free and grabbing ahold of the barrel and then quickly letting go?
 
Steely,

In this thread DeeDee, explains the heart on her hand. It does look like a burn to me too, but dd knows so much and assures me it is a drawing of some kind. Now, whether it's a heart or something else, is yet another thing to ponder.
 
Agatha_C said:
Steely,

In this thread DeeDee, explains the heart on her hand. It does look like a burn to me too, but dd knows so much and assures me it is a drawing of some kind. Now, whether it's a heart or something else, is yet another thing to ponder.
Click to expand...

The coroner did say the drawing on her palm was red ink. I don't think he'd have omitted any burns he saw. BUT the mark on her cheek and the similar marks on her back DO look like burns to me, at least in online photos. I can't believe the coroner would not have noted if they were burns. Cigarette burns or burns of ANY kind on a murdered child would be certainly something to note. The cheek burn would be a likely location for the curling iron burn, but NOT her back. That would have to be much more sinister. I simply cannot see Patsy primping up JB for a photo shoot after arriving home at 10 PM on Christmas night after a full day of activity and stopping off at several homes on the way back. Then, with lots of last-minute details for the trip early the next day...no way she was having a photo shoot that night. The curling iron idea doesn't fit, IMO.
If there was ONE thing I'd like to know for sure it is exactly what those marks are and how did they get there. That might be a key to the crime all by itself (especially if it is from a stun gun).
 
DeeDee249 said:
The coroner did say the drawing on her palm was red ink. I don't think he'd have omitted any burns he saw. BUT the mark on her cheek and the similar marks on her back DO look like burns to me, at least in online photos. I can't believe the coroner would not have noted if they were burns. Cigarette burns or burns of ANY kind on a murdered child would be certainly something to note. The cheek burn would be a likely location for the curling iron burn, but NOT her back. That would have to be much more sinister. I simply cannot see Patsy primping up JB for a photo shoot after arriving home at 10 PM on Christmas night after a full day of activity and stopping off at several homes on the way back. Then, with lots of last-minute details for the trip early the next day...no way she was having a photo shoot that night. The curling iron idea doesn't fit, IMO.
If there was ONE thing I'd like to know for sure it is exactly what those marks are and how did they get there. That might be a key to the crime all by itself (especially if it is from a stun gun).
Click to expand...

Thanks for your post. I think you are in the majority who think she wouldn't want to do a photo shoot that late. But go back through the photos. Look at all those Christmas trees. All the Christmas decorations. Look at all the photos of the family with their matching outfits. Think of how upset PR had been that JB wouldn't wear the red turtleneck to match HER....to match PR. Until you try to think like PR...it doesn't sound reasonable. But, they had a private plane, they said they often just took their kids in their jammies...it isn't like now were you have to be at the airport 2 hours in advance. Sleepy kids on the flight wouldn't even be such a bad thing, I don't think. JR said he'd already pre-loaded the presents they were taking.

PR did JB's hair all the time. It wouldn't take her very long to throw in a few curls. Everyone else was already dressed except for JB. BR was too excited to settle down...BR said JB walked in. JB just needed to change into the RED TURTLENECK PR wanted her to wear. So while JR built the toy with BR, the girls could go upstairs and get ready. PR could put her make-up on while the curling iron was heating up. She did JB's hair all the time. She probably had a salon professional curling iron that heated up really fast and really HOT. All she would need to do is put JB's hair in sections.......she could use clips or put the top section up in a ponytail, then the next section in a ponytail...and then put a larger, scrunchie tie to hold all of that hair up out of the way while she started curling the bottom layers.

They'd be wanting photos with the rest of the family tomorrow anyway. Would PR want ONLY Christmas photos of her kids with JR's kids (her stepkids) but NONE of just her kids...of HER family with JR?...her kids with JR in their home by their Christmas trees, those trees she'd taken so much time to decorate? I think she resented having to leave her home the day after Christmas. I think after all her trouble she would INSIST on at least a few photos.

I think most people wouldn't want to stay up to take photos but PR wasn't like most people. JB's trophies tell us that. The R's home being on the Christmas tour of homes tells us that. Their matchy-matchy clothes in so many of their photos tell us that. The thousands of dollars PR spent on professional photos for JB and the rest of the family tell us that. Photos were more important to PR than to most other people and JB's hair was extremely important to PR. "she's blond...she's blond"

And as for JB's back...perhaps the red turtleneck had to be removed because JB came upstairs after eating pineapple with BR and she had spilled on it. PR might have thought she'd done so on purpose. So JB didn't have a shirt on...maybe PR had to "FUSS" with a different red outfit to put her in....

"Branding" burns are actually much more common than you might think and curling iron burns can look dark red and feel like an abrasion.
 
I looked at a photo the other day of these "burns". They seem to have an x or a cross in the middle of them. Whatever made these had something in the middle that left a "brand". There is more to them than just a circular burn. I will see if I can find the photo that showed this the best and post a link. Also, if a curling iron had done this, I don't see how it could have been so "circular". The end of a curling iron is protected and just a touch by the hot part wouldn't leave such a perfect circle, if you get my meaning.
 
If you go here, [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9784"]Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice[/ame]
you can see the photo of the burn that I am referring to. It's the close up of the one under her ear. I don't believe this is the one I saw the other day as the x or cross is not as clear. I will continue looking till I find that particular one, but you can barely see it in this one.
 
This discussion brings us back to the point that it could be a stun gun.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon161.htm
This article states the only way to know for sure now is to exhume the body.

It would leave a mark that can resemble a burn..

But it is very possible. Then why would anyone in the family use a stun gun on her.

Now Im way off the entire subject of this thread....
 
joeskidbeck said:
Here is another link that has a good photo of the circular burn with the x in the middle.
http://zyberzoom.com/ComparisonPhotos.html

I'm having trouble visualizing what may have made such perfect circles.
Click to expand...

Thank you, because this page also contains the photo of a victim strangled with a scarf indicating the EXACT type of "large red triangular abrasion" that JB had on her throat. As I had said, it appears to be the result of pooling blood under the point of deepest pressure (NOT always where the knot is or where the killer is pulling the ligature from). This is NOT an abrasion like a scratch, but the skin develops a thin, papery texture postmortem.
 
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