Sixteen years... back to the basics

[DeeDee249]

Nom de plume, DeeDee249, SunVenus -
With regard to JB's urine problems, the bedding, etc: On the candyrose website there are some good shots of the carpet stains in JB's bedroom, also showing the carpet sample taken by the police cut away. The urine stain looks pretty large on the overall.

How would that much of a large urine stain be on JB's carpet on Christmas day? If LHP had been there two days before the murder changing sheets, and there had been a pee spot that large next to the bed, wouldn't she have been compelled to clean it up?

Could JB have let go of that much urine right next to her bed for some reason?
If so, she must have been without undies or just in a simple pair?

Urine on the bedroom carpet, urine on the basement carpet near the paint tray and in the front of her long johns, and urine on the blanket she was wrapped in. I don't know what to make of it all.

Oh yes, PMPT also refers to the carpet samples taken from JAR's room, and there was some question about the dust ruffle being disturbed on the bed in that room as to whether JB ran and hid under it, only to be pulled out from under the bed by someone. More peed up carpet - from fear??

There was supposedly a length of heavy hemp-type rope (the one seen in one of JB's modeling shots showing her lying on her side in pigtails and country outfit with the rope at her feet) that had been under JAR's bed. However, in looking at that dust ruffle, it could have gotten mussed in any number of events- vacuuming, even just walking against it could have done that. As we know, there was NO time where JB hid under that bed from an intruder because there was none. They allege she was taken from her bed- so there was no time for her to run in another room and hide. If she was asleep- as they claim- she wouldn't have known anyone was coming for her.
Was she hiding from a family member whose abuse she had come to fear? Now THAT is a question for the Rs.

As far as the urine stains- if they were already dried, there is no way to "date" them. They could have been from another time. This includes her sheets, though LHP said she put a different set on her bed on the 23rd, the last time she was there to do it. So the creatinine (dried urine) found on JB's sheets had to have been from one of the subsequent nights up to her death. However, the dried urine on her clothing (panties and long johns) likely came from bladder release at the moment of death. Healthy kidneys make urine constantly, as soon as a bladder is voided, new urine will begin to collect, though the body's sensors to detect the need to urinate do not kick in until there is a least a certain amount. So even if JB had an "accident" earlier in the evening, there would still have been urine to be voided at death. Not so with fecal matter. Only if it is in the rectum will it also be voided when the sphincter goes flaccid at death. If it is higher up in the excretory system it will not. This is what happened with JB. The "soft green fecal material" was in her small intestine- not ready to be excreted. Had she had feces from what she ate earlier that day or even the day before, (NOT at the Whites or after she came home) there very well could have been a "soiling" accident that day.

 

[arielilane]

Hi SunVenus,

Thank you for your heartfelt and informative posts. I greatly appreciate that you shared your story and brought insight to a disorder not understood. I look forward to reading future post from you and from all WS posters.

 

[UKGuy]

There was supposedly a length of heavy hemp-type rope (the one seen in one of JB's modeling shots showing her lying on her side in pigtails and country outfit with the rope at her feet) that had been under JAR's bed. However, in looking at that dust ruffle, it could have gotten mussed in any number of events- vacuuming, even just walking against it could have done that. As we know, there was NO time where JB hid under that bed from an intruder because there was none. They allege she was taken from her bed- so there was no time for her to run in another room and hide. If she was asleep- as they claim- she wouldn't have known anyone was coming for her.
Was she hiding from a family member whose abuse she had come to fear? Now THAT is a question for the Rs.

As far as the urine stains- if they were already dried, there is no way to "date" them. They could have been from another time. This includes her sheets, though LHP said she put a different set on her bed on the 23rd, the last time she was there to do it. So the creatinine (dried urine) found on JB's sheets had to have been from one of the subsequent nights up to her death. However, the dried urine on her clothing (panties and long johns) likely came from bladder release at the moment of death. Healthy kidneys make urine constantly, as soon as a bladder is voided, new urine will begin to collect, though the body's sensors to detect the need to urinate do not kick in until there is a least a certain amount. So even if JB had an "accident" earlier in the evening, there would still have been urine to be voided at death. Not so with fecal matter. Only if it is in the rectum will it also be voided when the sphincter goes flaccid at death. If it is higher up in the excretory system it will not. This is what happened with JB. The "soft green fecal material" was in her small intestine- not ready to be excreted. Had she had feces from what she ate earlier that day or even the day before, (NOT at the Whites or after she came home) there very well could have been a "soiling" accident that day.

DeeDee249,
There were those soiled pants on JonBenet's bathroom floor. You have to wonder, with all those soiled pants lying about JonBenet's bathroom and bedroom, not to mention, fecal deposits. Just what was going on?

Did JonBenet simply have no hygene considerations, or was there something else presenting here?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
There were those soiled pants on JonBenet's bathroom floor. You have to wonder, with all those soiled pants lying about JonBenet's bathroom and bedroom, not to mention, fecal deposits. Just what was going on?

Did JonBenet simply have no hygene considerations, or was there something else presenting here?

.

There were the soiled black pants on the floor, which Patsy told LE were "black play pants" as opposed to the black velvet pants JB wore that day. Of course, there is only her word for that. We don't know what happened to the black velvet pants she wore, do we?
Then we have the fecal matter in the PJ bottoms, presumed to be BR's. Then we have the fecal matter smeared on the box of candy.
I mean....wouldn't this STINK? Would a mother really not notice this? Did it happen after they got home?
If I were LE questioning Patsy and JR, I'd be asking whether they noticed/smelled poop on a box of candy in the room when they supposedly put her to bed that night. They HAD to smell it- so I'd be asking them- "so you just put her to bed with the stench in the room?". Because no parent would do this so the obvious TRUTH is that they never put her to bed that night at all, and whatever led to all the fecal matter happened after they got home.

 

[midwest mama]

There were the spoiled black pants on the floor, which Patsy told LE were "black play pants" as opposed to the black velvet pants JB wore that day. Of course, there is only her word for that. We don't know what happened to the black velvet pants she wore, so we?
Then we have the fecal matter in the PJ bottoms, presumed to be BR's. Then we have the fecal matter smeared on the box of candy.
I mean....wouldn't this STINK? Would a mother really not notice this? Did it happen after they got home?
If I were LE questioning Patsy and JR, I'd be asking whether they noticed/smelled poop on a box of candy in the room when they supposedly put her to bed that night. They HAD to smell it- so I'd be asking them- "so you just put her to bed with the stench in the room?". Because no parent would do this so the obvious TRUTH is that they never put her to bed that night at all, and whatever led to all the fecal matter happened after they got home.

So, let's forget about any statements the R's made about what happened after they first got home, since their testimonies have been riddled with inconsistencies regarding other facts.

Maybe JB was whining she was hungry, and Burke offered to fix her the quick pineapple snack. Then, Patsy said enough already and both JB and Burke were sent up to get ready for bed on their own? Patsy might have gone off to do whatever else she had in mind to get ready for the morning's trip. Would JR have just gone up to bed whenever, since Patsy was with the kids?

Patsy might have stopped by their rooms quickly to make sure they were in the process of getting to bed, but then went on up herself, thinking they'd be settling down soon............and at that point it all began that night with JB and Burke? As one thing led to another, Patsy heard the scream too, and the rest is history - with her waking John to help her take care of the rest of it?

 

[SunnieRN]

DeeDee249,
There were those soiled pants on JonBenet's bathroom floor. You have to wonder, with all those soiled pants lying about JonBenet's bathroom and bedroom, not to mention, fecal deposits. Just what was going on?

Did JonBenet simply have no hygene considerations, or was there something else presenting here?

.

UKGuy, I have to believe that something else was present. To have 2 children within a family, be toilet trained, then revert back to urinating and defecating in their pants, beds, smearing it on candy, is NOT 'normal' in any way, shape or form for children their ages.

I don't know how Patsy, or John, for that matter, could think the behaviors were normal. I can understand if for some medical reason, they were unable to be potty trained, due to muscle problem, bladder or bowel problems, but it was not the case in this family.

At nine, a child should feel shame, remorse, embarrassment at these behaviors. I am certain Burke didn't exhibit these 'oddities' at school, so how could his family not have seen this as a true warning sign, 'flashing light' that shouted something needs to be done, this isn't kosher?

 

[DeeDee249]

I agree. But we don't actually know for sure whether BR exhibited any of this behavior at school or any other place (friends' homes, etc). His records, like his sister's, were kept from investigators.

 

[UKGuy]

There were the soiled black pants on the floor, which Patsy told LE were "black play pants" as opposed to the black velvet pants JB wore that day. Of course, there is only her word for that. We don't know what happened to the black velvet pants she wore, do we?
Then we have the fecal matter in the PJ bottoms, presumed to be BR's. Then we have the fecal matter smeared on the box of candy.
I mean....wouldn't this STINK? Would a mother really not notice this? Did it happen after they got home?
If I were LE questioning Patsy and JR, I'd be asking whether they noticed/smelled poop on a box of candy in the room when they supposedly put her to bed that night. They HAD to smell it- so I'd be asking them- "so you just put her to bed with the stench in the room?". Because no parent would do this so the obvious TRUTH is that they never put her to bed that night at all, and whatever led to all the fecal matter happened after they got home.

DeeDee249,
I thought they were laid out on the spare bed in JonBenet's bedroom?

I agree the R's never put JonBenet to bed. Based on the Pink Barbie Nightgown, I reckon JonBenet readied for bed, possibly prior to the pineapple snack. I could imagine Patsy telling both JonBenet and Burke to prepare for bed since "We are flying early tommorrow".

Either something took place in JonBenet's bedroom, or it was used to create some kind of staged response. I'm basing this on the mess and the bloodstain. Which should not really be there.

Otherwise JonBenet dressed in Nightgown went to someone else's bedroom where events unfolded?


.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, I have to believe that something else was present. To have 2 children within a family, be toilet trained, then revert back to urinating and defecating in their pants, beds, smearing it on candy, is NOT 'normal' in any way, shape or form for children their ages.

I don't know how Patsy, or John, for that matter, could think the behaviors were normal. I can understand if for some medical reason, they were unable to be potty trained, due to muscle problem, bladder or bowel problems, but it was not the case in this family.

At nine, a child should feel shame, remorse, embarrassment at these behaviors. I am certain Burke didn't exhibit these 'oddities' at school, so how could his family not have seen this as a true warning sign, 'flashing light' that shouted something needs to be done, this isn't kosher?

SunnieRN,
Could be. Or are the pajama bottoms a one off response, along with JonBenet's lack of hygene, simply normal behaviour?

I wonder what LHP might say about this subject, since it would be her that picked up the clothes and not Patsy or John?

Are those pajama bottoms ones that BR wore that night, and abandoned in the general confusion, or have they been dumped in there, out of his own bedroom?

What I think is that since the R's never saw any big deal with the soiled underwear and pajama bottoms, i.e. its normal. They probably viewed them as just more stuff lying about the house?

What if those pajama bottoms are not Burke's, what if they belong to someone else? Kolar only suggests they belong to Burke because they are bigger that JonBenet's?

If those pajama bottoms were not worn by JonBenet, then what are they doing on the bedroom floor of a murdered little girl?

.

 

[SunnieRN]

Hi UKGuy, I was also referring to the smeared fecal matter on the walls by Burke. There is a lot of abnormal soiling going on within that family. I don't think it was normal for Patsy or John when they were younger, or the grandparents would not have felt it was necessary to give parenting books to P and JR.

There was supposedly a length of heavy hemp-type rope (the one seen in one of JB's modeling shots showing her lying on her side in pigtails and country outfit with the rope at her feet) that had been under JAR's bed. However, in looking at that dust ruffle, it could have gotten mussed in any number of events- vacuuming, even just walking against it could have done that. As we know, there was NO time where JB hid under that bed from an intruder because there was none. They allege she was taken from her bed- so there was no time for her to run in another room and hide. If she was asleep- as they claim- she wouldn't have known anyone was coming for her.
Was she hiding from a family member whose abuse she had come to fear? Now THAT is a question for the Rs.

As far as the urine stains- if they were already dried, there is no way to "date" them. They could have been from another time. This includes her sheets, though LHP said she put a different set on her bed on the 23rd, the last time she was there to do it. So the creatinine (dried urine) found on JB's sheets had to have been from one of the subsequent nights up to her death. However, the dried urine on her clothing (panties and long johns) likely came from bladder release at the moment of death. Healthy kidneys make urine constantly, as soon as a bladder is voided, new urine will begin to collect, though the body's sensors to detect the need to urinate do not kick in until there is a least a certain amount. So even if JB had an "accident" earlier in the evening, there would still have been urine to be voided at death. Not so with fecal matter. Only if it is in the rectum will it also be voided when the sphincter goes flaccid at death. If it is higher up in the excretory system it will not. This is what happened with JB. The "soft green fecal material" was in her small intestine- not ready to be excreted. Had she had feces from what she ate earlier that day or even the day before, (NOT at the Whites or after she came home) there very well could have been a "soiling" accident that day.

Didn't the R's state that the reason JonBenets dog lived with the neighbors, was due to the dog having constant 'constant accidents'? Maybe that is why only part of the carpet was taken by BPD. Maybe some of the stains were dog urine?

I agree. But we don't actually know for sure whether BR exhibited any of this behavior at school or any other place (friends' homes, etc). His records, like his sister's, were kept from investigators.

Oh man DeeDee. This would lead to a whole new level of abnormality and makes me wonder, if true, how nothing EVER came out about it. I truly believe this was not exhibited outside the home, just as JonBenet was never mentioned to have problems with wetting or defecating at pageants. That would be hard to hide in such a situation, I would imagine.

 

[DeeDee249]

The Rs dog did have accidents in the house, and Patsy wasn't happy about it. Odd, since the poop in her kids' clothes/bed/candy box, etc didn't faze her. Nor did the constantly wet beds.
The dog spend a lot of time across the street with the Barnhills, who were said to really love the dog. But it didn't always live there.

Re the black velvet pants on the spare twin bed in JB's room- I knew they were allegedly there, but I wondered whether they were ever taken into evidence. I know they have (hopefully) the clothes that were on her when she was found. But don't recall seeing that police also took her black velvet pants and vest.

 

[SunnieRN]

You got me thinking DeeDee. I wonder how much of the evidence is still intact? How many cases have their been, where evidence was lot or misplaced?