Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

[Tawny]

Are you insinuating that John Ramsey and Lin Wood are the cause of Kolar's poor sales and lack of media coverage?

I'm saying it's not outside the realm of possibility, but clearly I have no way of knowing for sure.

 

[Tawny]

WHAT are you talking about?

[modsnip]

 

[Buttercup117]

She also drew red hearts in JB's palms.

Little Caylee had a heart sticker found on the duct tape covering her mouth,, ( as reported) Not saying Caylee and JBR were killed by the same person but perhaps my someone who had a close relationship with them- say maybe a relative of sorts

 

[traacker13]

I apologize if this has been mentioned, I haven't read the entire thread, but I agree with Ops statement that this sure is an odd murder weapon. But one thing that I am not entirely sold on is the theory of it being constructed previously or the reasons why.

It was suggested that this had to be a premeditated action (building the so-called garrot) because no one would have the clear state of mind to build such a contraption in the midst of the chaos that was occuring. If it is true that PR wrote the ransom note (which IMO occured) than this would also prove to be quite a strange and elaborate thing to do (3 pages...why?) as well. So how can we assume that this wasn't crafted the same night? With the other strange actions taken by the Ramseys that night I could not be sure that they wouldn't have constructing something so strange as to play into their strange and unbelievable (imo) story about JonBenets kidnapping.

 

[UKGuy]

I apologize if this has been mentioned, I haven't read the entire thread, but I agree with Ops statement that this sure is an odd murder weapon. But one thing that I am not entirely sold on is the theory of it being constructed previously or the reasons why.

It was suggested that this had to be a premeditated action (building the so-called garrot) because no one would have the clear state of mind to build such a contraption in the midst of the chaos that was occuring. If it is true that PR wrote the ransom note (which IMO occured) than this would also prove to be quite a strange and elaborate thing to do (3 pages...why?) as well. So how can we assume that this wasn't crafted the same night? With the other strange actions taken by the Ramseys that night I could not be sure that they wouldn't have constructing something so strange as to play into their strange and unbelievable (imo) story about JonBenets kidnapping.

traacker13,
Making the garrote and applying the ligature might have been two separate actions, enacted after JonBenet was unconcious.

Regardless of how it all kicked off, I reckon its best to view the wine-cellar crime-scene along with the ransom note as staging.

The wine-cellar is intended to offer you a false perspective on whatever took place, and the ransom note is added as corroboration.

So nearly everything about JonBenet has been fabricated, the clothes she is wearing, the ligature around her neck, wrapped in a blanket, all suggestive of a little girl taken from her bed and killed. Only her acute sexual assault is not at first evident!

Summarising: the ransom note and garrote were constructed after JonBenet was initially assaulted, she was also redressed then placed into the wine-cellar to fake her disappearance, so to distance the remaining R's from JonBenet's homicide!

.

 

[tml]

I guess what I am saying is that this, in my opinion, dramatically understates the case. If we assume that it was constructed that night it still misses the signifant question of WHY this device and not something else?

Someone who is thinking strangulation is picturing things they might use for the job. For example, the power cord laying right there on the floor inb the pictures. No one is going to think, 'I need to strangle her, but first I need to craft some elaborate and virtually ineffective mechanism to do it for me.' The same applies to the paint brush: if the goal is a solid object a few inches long, why start snapping the ends off flimsy artists paint brushes? A hair brush would be stronger and just as effective, so would a marking pen or any tool. And none would require crafting.

And then there is the method itself: a noose on the end of a piece of cord. Who would even think to construct something like that as an implement for murder? If you wanted to strangle someone with a rope it doesn't require construction to do it, it just requires a rope -- or at the most a rope with a handle on both ends.

But they MIGHT very well craft something like this as an implement of torture or sexual asphixiation -- and this fits in as well with the "loosely" bound hands.


IMO

Very interesting point. I've always thought the garrote was constructed that night due to the shards of wood found outside the door (although realistically, we've all seen pics of that house- shards of any sorts left lying around wouldn't surprise me, so they could have been there before that night). If it was constructed that night during the events of whatever happened, then yes, WHY? It's clumsy and time-consuming, relatively ineffective, and creates more clues than using an already-existent tool would have. Ahhhh, but there is an answer we could work with: IT CREATES CLUES. Very effective staging IMO as hundreds of real cops and websleuths alike have struggled with what the garrote means for years.

 

[tml]

I get your point. I think the reason it troubles me is that it does not fit RDI, which I want to accept. This points to non RDI. I know people will disagree with me on this. I do not think this is pure staging.

I see your point as well and I feel similar to Anywho. This troubles me in the fact that, as you say, this specific instrument would require a slow and intimate process. There is a sadistic quality to it. Is this something someone would construct as a toy, a game to play with JBR? Possibly. Ok. Let's say it was constructed prior to the 26th, for use as an EA toy or something similar. Then we have to accept that the toy was made by someone who lived in the house or was in the house a lot, and unsupervised, as the handle came from PR's own paint tote and the cord was also likely purchased by PR. So, who was it? JR, for a sex game? Maybe. BR, for a sex game? Maybe. Less likely, IMO. PR, for a sex game? Less likely IMO. Was this made by BR and friends while playing in the basement at some point? In any case, it would have to have been constructed by someone who had access to the house and could be alone in it sometime prior to the murder.

Now let's assume it was made the night of the 26th, for purposes related to the events of the night. Possibilities:

-Constructed as a means of strangulation
-Constructed as a means of staging
-Constructed as a means of concealing

By this I mean, it was either constructed with the intent to kill, constructed with the intent to stage a sadistic intruder, or constructed with the intent to conceal a prior accidental, fatal injury. I don't necessarily think this is something that someone wouldn't be in the right mind to dream up. In fact I think it might be exactly the sort of thing someone in a frantic panic might concoct, piling on as many contradictory elements as possible. I'm not saying that I don't believe there are sexual elements to this crime, because I do. I am of the opinion that JBR was molested previously, but I don't think there was EA or sex games or anything like that, IMO.

 

[traacker13]

I see your point as well and I feel similar to Anywho. This troubles me in the fact that, as you say, this specific instrument would require a slow and intimate process. There is a sadistic quality to it. Is this something someone would construct as a toy, a game to play with JBR? Possibly. Ok. Let's say it was constructed prior to the 26th, for use as an EA toy or something similar. Then we have to accept that the toy was made by someone who lived in the house or was in the house a lot, and unsupervised, as the handle came from PR's own paint tote and the cord was also likely purchased by PR. So, who was it? JR, for a sex game? Maybe. BR, for a sex game? Maybe. Less likely, IMO. PR, for a sex game? Less likely IMO. Was this made by BR and friends while playing in the basement at some point? In any case, it would have to have been constructed by someone who had access to the house and could be alone in it sometime prior to the murder.

Now let's assume it was made the night of the 26th, for purposes related to the events of the night. Possibilities:


-Constructed as a means of concealing

By this I mean, it was either constructed with the intent to kill, constructed with the intent to stage a sadistic intruder, or constructed with the intent to conceal a prior accidental, fatal injury. I don't necessarily think this is something that someone wouldn't be in the right mind to dream up. In fact I think it might be exactly the sort of thing someone in a frantic panic might concoct, piling on as many contradictory elements as possible. I'm not saying that I don't believe there are sexual elements to this crime, because I do. I am of the opinion that JBR was molested previously, but I don't think there was EA or sex games or anything like that, IMO.

Perhaps it was both in the end

-Constructed as a means of strangulation
AND
-Constructed as a means of staging

It was used for staging initially until it was discovered that she was still alive. And for whatever the motive (which still perplexes me) it became a tool to end her life.

And now that I think about this, IMO maybe this accounts for the large gap in time between the initial head injury and strangulation which always perplexed me. They started staging her death before realizing that she wasn't actually dead at the time only to find out about 90 minutes later while close enough to her neck that she was still alive...

 

[traacker13]

Motive and whether the initial head blow was accidental or intentional and why still confuse me though...

 

[DeeDee249]

Motive and whether the initial head blow was accidental or intentional and why still confuse me though...

Well, some believe Patsy may have intended to bash JR and missed. Some believe Patsy slammed JB into a bathroom faucet or similar. Some believe (I am among them) that JB was bashed with the flashlight to shut her up when she screamed while being molested. As to the motive, there actually does not need to be one in a murder case. However, shutting her up would be the REASON for the bash, not technically a motive. The head bash may not have been intended to kill her- just to silence her. Yet, it isn't really an accident because the bash was deliberate, regardless of how it happened. I suppose the closest thing would be that her death was an unintended result of the head bash. The release of the Grand Jury indictments against the parents made it clear to me that BR (as the only other person in the home at that time) had to be involved. His age prevented him from being named. But the indictments clearly state the parents were covering up for someone and obstructing justice. I cannot think of anyone else they would do this for.
There are a few things that prevented LE from EVER determining exactly how the head bash happened. One was the failure of the DA to grant the BPD request to have the coroner keep the body a little longer in case there was more information that might be needed. Instead, BPD was accused of trying to "hold her body for ransom to obtain an interview with the parents". The further examination of the body would also have provided the opportunity to see what really made those round "abrasions" on her cheek and back.
The hole in her skull could have been matched against the flashlight, which would at least have given us the exact bludgeon that was used on her.
Another thing that occurred was that the home was released to the family right away. Patsy's sister was allowed to remove items from the home, and although she was accompanied by police to the house, no one examined every thing she touched or took. Her picking up "a few things for the funeral" actually filled three squad cars, and one of the things removed was JR's golf bag (seen in the basement right near the wine cellar door in the crime photos). I can bet the rent that golf bag was not searched. So there's the answer when people start to ask "where was the roll of duct tape and where was the rest of the cord?"
Shortly after the house was released to the family, it was purchased by a group of R "friends and investors" including lawyers. It was then stripped of all carpets and wallpaper, all walls painted white and resold. There was NO way anyone would be able to find urine or blood on the floors or walls at that point. And that is JUST the way the DA, Rs and their lawyers wanted it.
All household items and furniture and clothing was packed by professional movers and moved to Atlanta. The Rs never set foot in the house again after they left on the night of he 26th, leaving poor JB's little cold, dead body under the Christmas Tree.

 

[elannia]

Well, some believe Patsy may have intended to bash JR and missed. Some believe Patsy slammed JB into a bathroom faucet or similar. Some believe (I am among them) that JB was bashed with the flashlight to shut her up when she screamed while being molested. As to the motive, there actually does not need to be one in a murder case. However, shutting her up would be the REASON for the bash, not technically a motive. The head bash may not have been intended to kill her- just to silence her. Yet, it isn't really an accident because the bash was deliberate, regardless of how it happened. I suppose the closest thing would be that her death was an unintended result of the head bash. The release of the Grand Jury indictments against the parents made it clear to me that BR (as the only other person in the home at that time) had to be involved. His age prevented him from being named. But the indictments clearly state the parents were covering up for someone and obstructing justice. I cannot think of anyone else they would do this for.
There are a few things that prevented LE from EVER determining exactly how the head bash happened. One was the failure of the DA to grant the BPD request to have the coroner keep the body a little longer in case there was more information that might be needed. Instead, BPD was accused of trying to "hold her body for ransom to obtain an interview with the parents". The further examination of the body would also have provided the opportunity to see what really made those round "abrasions" on her cheek and back.
The hole in her skull could have been matched against the flashlight, which would at least have given us the exact bludgeon that was used on her.
Another thing that occurred was that the home was released to the family right away. Patsy's sister was allowed to remove items from the home, and although she was accompanied by police to the house, no one examined every thing she touched or took. Her picking up "a few things for the funeral" actually filled three squad cars, and one of the things removed was JR's golf bag (seen in the basement right near the wine cellar door in the crime photos). I can bet the rent that golf bag was not searched. So there's the answer when people start to ask "where was the roll of duct tape and where was the rest of the cord?"
Shortly after the house was released to the family, it was purchased by a group of R "friends and investors" including lawyers. It was then stripped of all carpets and wallpaper, all walls painted white and resold. There was NO way anyone would be able to find urine or blood on the floors or walls at that point. And that is JUST the way the DA, Rs and their lawyers wanted it.
All household items and furniture and clothing was packed by professional movers and moved to Atlanta. The Rs never set foot in the house again after they left on the night of he 26th, leaving poor JB's little cold, dead body under the Christmas Tree.

DeeDee, I must say, I enjoy reading your posts so much, you are great at explaining everything and I appreciate it

 

[elannia]

How awful to think about her lying under that tree all that time(yes, she was gone, but I just cannot imagine her family leaving her so soon), yes, they would have to eventually, but I wonder if they even said their goodbyes. And I dont even wanna get started on the coroner

 

[dodie20]

I see your point as well and I feel similar to Anywho. This troubles me in the fact that, as you say, this specific instrument would require a slow and intimate process. There is a sadistic quality to it. Is this something someone would construct as a toy, a game to play with JBR? Possibly. Ok. Let's say it was constructed prior to the 26th, for use as an EA toy or something similar. Then we have to accept that the toy was made by someone who lived in the house or was in the house a lot, and unsupervised, as the handle came from PR's own paint tote and the cord was also likely purchased by PR. So, who was it? JR, for a sex game? Maybe. BR, for a sex game? Maybe. Less likely, IMO. PR, for a sex game? Less likely IMO. Was this made by BR and friends while playing in the basement at some point? In any case, it would have to have been constructed by someone who had access to the house and could be alone in it sometime prior to the murder.

Now let's assume it was made the night of the 26th, for purposes related to the events of the night. Possibilities:

-Constructed as a means of strangulation
-Constructed as a means of staging
-Constructed as a means of concealing

By this I mean, it was either constructed with the intent to kill, constructed with the intent to stage a sadistic intruder, or constructed with the intent to conceal a prior accidental, fatal injury. I don't necessarily think this is something that someone wouldn't be in the right mind to dream up. In fact I think it might be exactly the sort of thing someone in a frantic panic might concoct, piling on as many contradictory elements as possible. I'm not saying that I don't believe there are sexual elements to this crime, because I do. I am of the opinion that JBR was molested previously, but I don't think there was EA or sex games or anything like that, IMO.

I think it was constructed as a means of strangulation, and was used exactly what it was built for. My theory is that whoever killed JB used it not because it was intimate, but because it was 'less' intimate than using his/her actual hands. Since I believe the head bash came first, I think the killer later realized the bash didn't kill her, so he went back and finished what he started. So, I guess I see a lot of premeditation here. After seeing the picture of that horrible hole in JB's skull, premeditation wouldn't surprise me. Somebody bashed to kill, IMO. Awful theory, I know, but once I got it in my head that the killer used the garotte or whatever it was, to distance himself from the act of murder, the idea kind of stuck with me. moo

 

[andreww]

After reading some of your posts it made me think, is it possible that the garrote was not the actual murder weapon? Some of you have theorized that the WC wasn't the actual crime scene, but more of a staging area. So let's say the crime actually happened upstairs in one of the kids bedrooms. Would it have been possible that something else was used to strangle JB, possibly a part of a toy or a common household item? Then when the body was moved to the basement, the garrote was constructed using items found in the basement, helping to further mask the existence of an upstairs crime scene? Not saying it happened like that but is there any evidence to say it couldn't have?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UKGuy]

After reading some of your posts it made me think, is it possible that the garrote was not the actual murder weapon? Some of you have theorized that the WC wasn't the actual crime scene, but more of a staging area. So let's say the crime actually happened upstairs in one of the kids bedrooms. Would it have been possible that something else was used to strangle JB, possibly a part of a toy or a common household item? Then when the body was moved to the basement, the garrote was constructed using items found in the basement, helping to further mask the existence of an upstairs crime scene? Not saying it happened like that but is there any evidence to say it couldn't have?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

andreww,
Yes, this is partially what I think: JonBenet was assaulted upstairs and moved downstairs to stage the wine-cellar crime-scene.

The order of her injuries might be sexual assault, manual strangulation, headbash. The garrote is intended to hide the manual aspect of her neck injuries and use of the paintbrush similarly for her internal injury, only the head bash does not require any staging since its invisible.

JonBenet was redressed notably in size-12's, she was wrapped in a blanket, to suggest she originated from her bed. Note JonBenet's bloodstained pink barbie nightgown was dumped in the wine-cellar, on which was found BR's touch-dna.

So nearly everything about the wine-cellar crime-scene has been staged.


.

 

[traacker13]

andreww,
Yes, this is partially what I think: JonBenet was assaulted upstairs and moved downstairs to stage the wine-cellar crime-scene.

The order of her injuries might be sexual assault, manual strangulation, headbash. The garrote is intended to hide the manual aspect of her neck injuries and use of the paintbrush similarly for her internal injury, only the head bash does not require any staging since its invisible.

JonBenet was redressed notably in size-12's, she was wrapped in a blanket, to suggest she originated from her bed. Note JonBenet's bloodstained pink barbie nightgown was dumped in the wine-cellar, on which was found BR's touch-dna.

So nearly everything about the wine-cellar crime-scene has been staged.


.

I had thought that I read somewhere that the head bash occured first and then there was a considerable amount of time (90 minutes) and then she was strangled...

 

[andreww]

I had thought that I read somewhere that the head bash occured first and then there was a considerable amount of time (90 minutes) and then she was strangled...

I don't think the order of those events have been proved conclusively. It has been proved that the strangulation caused her death, so logic would tell you the head bad came first. Why smash her skull after she is dead right? But if the head bash was simply staging, that would explain the order. I've often wondered why there was no bleeding from that wound. Could it have been inflicted after she was dead?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UKGuy]

I had thought that I read somewhere that the head bash occured first and then there was a considerable amount of time (90 minutes) and then she was strangled...

traacker13,
Ask yourself if you have whacked someone on the head, why bother with further staging, why not whack her on the head until she stops breathing?

The head bash is a moot point since it was never factored in as needing to be staged.

Also why construct a garrote when some fabric tied over her mouth would do the same job, or even a plastic bag?

I reckon its been fabricated to hide neck injuries resulting from manual constriction. The head bash might represent someones first attempt at killing JonBenet?

Whatever happened I think the wine-cellar crime-scene has been largely staged to mask prior events.

.

 

[traacker13]

traacker13,
Ask yourself if you have whacked someone on the head, why bother with further staging, why not whack her on the head until she stops breathing?

The head bash is a moot point since it was never factored in as needing to be staged.

Also why construct a garrote when some fabric tied over her mouth would do the same job, or even a plastic bag?

I reckon its been fabricated to hide neck injuries resulting from manual constriction. The head bash might represent someones first attempt at killing JonBenet?

Whatever happened I think the wine-cellar crime-scene has been largely staged to mask prior events.

.

But it could also go the other way...why whack her on the head if she's already dead from strangulation? Overkill??

 

[traacker13]

IMO I feel like the head bash was done in an act of impulsive instant rage. It takes a lot more forethought to strangle someone and watch them die then it does to pick up something heavy and in a fit of extreme fury throw it or bash someone with it. It also takes much more forethought to use the contraption that was used to strangle her and for that reason, I think the head bash came first. This is just IMO.