Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

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IMO I feel like the head bash was done in an act of impulsive instant rage. It takes a lot more forethought to strangle someone and watch them die then it does to pick up something heavy and in a fit of extreme fury throw it or bash someone with it. It also takes much more forethought to use the contraption that was used to strangle her and for that reason, I think the head bash came first. This is just IMO.

traacker13,
BBM: yes many think this, e.g. someone whacked JonBenet to stop her screaming? She could also have been silenced by compressing her neck, leading to unconciousness.

If you study the autopsy pictures you can see JonBenet has neck bruising beneath the circumferential furrow, which might represent prior strangulation?

An intruder patently does not need to manufacture a garrote to kill JonBenet, a hand over her mouth would be sufficient. This is why I think the garrote plays the role of masking prior manual strangulation.

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I don't think the order of those events have been proved conclusively. It has been proved that the strangulation caused her death, so logic would tell you the head bad came first. Why smash her skull after she is dead right? But if the head bash was simply staging, that would explain the order. I've often wondered why there was no bleeding from that wound. Could it have been inflicted after she was dead?


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I believe that numerous experts disagree on the order of events; I have always thought the head bash came first in an instinctive act of rage or perhaps an accidental smack (with a whole lot of force). As you say, forensics has shown that the strangulation CAUSED her death. I don't think the bash was staging. I think the strangulation was staging and the stager was unaware that JBR was technically alive.

I've also always wondered about the lack of blood from the head wound. We know the bash didn't split skin on her scalp as they were unaware of the injury until autopsy. But a blow that severe would have produced bleeding in the brain as well as a bloody nose, blood coming from ears, etc. Or at least I would think so.

From what I can deduce, the autopsy showed some bruising and hemorrhaging on the surface of her brain and the tips of the temporal lobes. There was bleeding in the brain from the blow but much less than I would expect. Obviously I'm no MD but with a fracture that large, the force would have caused a mighty amount of pressure inside her skull.

Perhaps JBR was manually strangled first, say with her red turtleneck, so was already dying and with reduced blood flow to her brain? Although this doesn't account for the viciousness of the head bash and the fact that it would be unnecessary if one were concealing a manual strangulation as a sadistic garrote-wielding intruder...

As for blood that may have come from her nose, ears, or mouth due to the head bash, we don't know the original crime scene. There could have been cleaned up blood anywhere in that house, not to mention any bloodied clothes or blankets could have been squirreled away in JR's fancy golf bag.
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After reading some of your posts it made me think, is it possible that the garrote was not the actual murder weapon? Some of you have theorized that the WC wasn't the actual crime scene, but more of a staging area. So let's say the crime actually happened upstairs in one of the kids bedrooms. Would it have been possible that something else was used to strangle JB, possibly a part of a toy or a common household item? Then when the body was moved to the basement, the garrote was constructed using items found in the basement, helping to further mask the existence of an upstairs crime scene? Not saying it happened like that but is there any evidence to say it couldn't have?


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There has been speculation about this for years. I do not think so, because there were absolutely NO other marks on her throat. Only the ligature furrow. Whatever could have been used before that, whether hands, scarf, etc would have left a mark. And we can't forget the RED ligature furrow, which would have been WHITE if it had been applied on a dead body. This ligature was left on her body and only removed when the coroner cut it off. Had it been put on a dead body and left in place, livor mortis would be fixed by the time the coroner removed it and the blood, gelled by then, would not flow back into the space under the cord, leaving a WHITE mark. Like I always say, theories come and go, but at the end of the day, forensic science trumps it all.
 
I had thought that I read somewhere that the head bash occured first and then there was a considerable amount of time (90 minutes) and then she was strangled...

It was closer to 45 minutes, but that's still a lot of time.
 
There has been speculation about this for years. I do not think so, because there were absolutely NO other marks on her throat. Only the ligature furrow. Whatever could have been used before that, whether hands, scarf, etc would have left a mark. And we can't forget the RED ligature furrow, which would have been WHITE if it had been applied on a dead body. This ligature was left on her body and only removed when the coroner cut it off. Had it been put on a dead body and left in place, livor mortis would be fixed by the time the coroner removed it and the blood, gelled by then, would not flow back into the space under the cord, leaving a WHITE mark. Like I always say, theories come and go, but at the end of the day, forensic science trumps it all.
Isn't it also typical to find DNA under the fingernails during a strangulation? I imagine JB would fight back if the strangulation occured first.
 
In one part of Kolar's book that are readable on Amazon, he says that the head-bash must have come first, by as much as an hour or even more, because of the large amount of bleeding in the brain. It was certainly a blow that would have been fatal, but apparently it was the strangulation that finished her off. Do we think his facts are straight, or is he cherry-picking from among a range of conflicting ideas?
 
In one part of Kolar's book that are readable on Amazon, he says that the head-bash must have come first, by as much as an hour or even more, because of the large amount of bleeding in the brain. It was certainly a blow that would have been fatal, but apparently it was the strangulation that finished her off. Do we think his facts are straight, or is he cherry-picking from among a range of conflicting ideas?

Most forensic experts who have studied the case, seen the body or autopsy report agree with Kolar's statement that the head blow came first. She was alive when the garrote was applied and tightened. Her body bore the classic signs of death by strangulation (petechiae in the eyelids, lungs, throat). Therefore most experts believe it had to be the ligature that finally stopped her heart, though the head blow would have caused her death eventually without the strangulation. You can read several accounts other than Kolar's that agree. Only one forensic specialist felt differently, and after hearing his testimony in the Casey Anthony case I wouldn't put too much thought into his opinion. The coroner was not able to determine what came first- but if she had been strangled to DEATH first (by this I mean her heart had stopped and blood was no longer circulating) her brain would not have had the swelling (though minimal) that was noted nor the subdural bleeding. The type of depressed skull fracture and the linear crack in her skull point to a blow coming from above and slightly behind her, NOT from a blow administered to a dean body on the floor.
 
In one part of Kolar's book that are readable on Amazon, he says that the head-bash must have come first, by as much as an hour or even more, because of the large amount of bleeding in the brain. It was certainly a blow that would have been fatal, but apparently it was the strangulation that finished her off. Do we think his facts are straight, or is he cherry-picking from among a range of conflicting ideas?

I understand it this way, 887sMtreme: most of the pathologists who say that the strangulation came first either never worked the case or were led along the primrose path by pro-Ramsey forces. By contrast, the pathologists who worked the case alongside the police and FBI came to the conclusion that the head blow was first.
 
In one part of Kolar's book that are readable on Amazon, he says that the head-bash must have come first, by as much as an hour or even more, because of the large amount of bleeding in the brain. It was certainly a blow that would have been fatal, but apparently it was the strangulation that finished her off. Do we think his facts are straight, or is he cherry-picking from among a range of conflicting ideas?

887sMtreme,
Kolar's sequence of events are quite credible, and the forensic evidence seems to back him up. Its just that the events leading up to her ligature strangulation and any subsequent staging is open to speculation.

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I understand it this way, 887sMtreme: most of the pathologists who say that the strangulation came first either never worked the case or were led along the primrose path by pro-Ramsey forces. By contrast, the pathologists who worked the case alongside the police and FBI came to the conclusion that the head blow was first.


I agree, I think the strangulation-first theory was largely perpetuated by Ramsey supporters as a way of pointing outside the family. It just doesn't really fit with the forensic evidence and the condition of her brain upon autopsy. The head blow had to come first, and I also doubt that a strangled child lying on the ground would have been bashed on the head at the spot she was. In my opinion she was standing or sitting up and the blow came from the side or behind.
 
You are right, it is a contradiction. However, the RN/body is also an explanation. The two coincide. One does not exist without the other. This mainly works toward the RDI scenario, because if I've argued why wouldn't an intruder take the body or the RN with them when leaving? The fact it's a contradiction is completely irrelevant. In fact, it's why the RN is such a huge deal in the first place. With the RN & body in the basement (if RDI or IDI) it looks like something went awry during the attempted kidnapping. Let's sweep it under the rug, if you will. It's supposed to be right out of left field and make absolutely no sense. Hell, the FBI even said "this will end up as a homicide".

We can look at it one of two ways: RDI meant to dispose of the body later, after the police had left. Or, they always meant to find the body (either LE or someone else). I wish that -- like -- I'm trying to find the best way to explain it; but the only way I can say in layman's terms is the RN was just used to explain why. It doesn't matter where JB's body was; but the fact they go hand-in-hand together as I mentioned above. The RN was only there to explain why a child was dead. That's the only reason. I don't wanna sound like a broken record, but there was never a kidnapping in the first place. Something had to be done to explain the dire circumstances of the situation, thus the ransom note came into play.

What do you think, in lieu of a fake kidnapping, the Ramsey's should have done? (Aside from call the police after the headblow -- we have to assume JB is already dead at this point). To do a bit of roleplay here, what would you have done if you were in their shoes that night? Let's look at this from both POV: RDI and IDI.

I’m so sorry mocha, but I still can’t see how a ransom note can explain a body in the house. These things just don’t belong together and they never will. If they belonged together than they wouldn’t be contradictory; they would be consistent. You can’t have it both ways.

This idea of a failed kidnapping is interesting, but if someone wanted to fake something like this, then all they would have to do is say that they caught the kidnapper mid-crime, and he ran off without his victim; leave the body out in the open, near a doorway or open window. This point is moot as no evidence, real or staged, suggests such a thing.

The reason why no one has ever staged or reported a kidnapping to explain a dead body in the house is because it doesn’t explain it.

When people – the extorted as well as investigators, etc – are confronted with a ransom note they always, always, always and forever until the end of time realize that the victim has been taken away; they’re not in the home; they’re gone; the kidnappers took them. “We have your daughter.”
.

You ask, “What do you think, in lieu of a fake kidnapping, the Ramsey's should have done?”

Maybe it would help to consider what others have done when faced with similar circumstances – a dead body in the house that needed explaining. People stage break-ins or accidents, but, no one – ask the FBI – has ever staged or reported a kidnapping to explain this.

What would someone do if you they were in their shoes that night? Where do you want to start? The head blow? Because I always get stuck at this step. Because most people would panic and call for help immediately – not the police, either. They would panic and try to save tier child consequences be damned.

But, let’s say there is something different about the Ramseys – both of them – and they take a different direction. If I was one of THOSE Ramseys, what would I do? I’d throw her down the spiral staircase. I’d put a shoe or a toy or something on one of the stairs, or at the top of it and say she must have tripped. I’d call an ambulance or rush her lifeless body to the hospital myself. Id’ call my lawyers; I’d get out of dodge.

This is the sort of thing that people confronted with a similar situation do. They fake accidents, or they stage break-ins.
...

AK
 
I’m so sorry mocha, but I still can’t see how a ransom note can explain a body in the house. These things just don’t belong together and they never will. If they belonged together than they wouldn’t be contradictory; they would be consistent. You can’t have it both ways.

This idea of a failed kidnapping is interesting, but if someone wanted to fake something like this, then all they would have to do is say that they caught the kidnapper mid-crime, and he ran off without his victim; leave the body out in the open, near a doorway or open window. This point is moot as no evidence, real or staged, suggests such a thing.

The reason why no one has ever staged or reported a kidnapping to explain a dead body in the house is because it doesn’t explain it.

When people – the extorted as well as investigators, etc – are confronted with a ransom note they always, always, always and forever until the end of time realize that the victim has been taken away; they’re not in the home; they’re gone; the kidnappers took them. “We have your daughter.”
.

You ask, “What do you think, in lieu of a fake kidnapping, the Ramsey's should have done?”

Maybe it would help to consider what others have done when faced with similar circumstances – a dead body in the house that needed explaining. People stage break-ins or accidents, but, no one – ask the FBI – has ever staged or reported a kidnapping to explain this.

What would someone do if you they were in their shoes that night? Where do you want to start? The head blow? Because I always get stuck at this step. Because most people would panic and call for help immediately – not the police, either. They would panic and try to save tier child consequences be damned.

But, let’s say there is something different about the Ramseys – both of them – and they take a different direction. If I was one of THOSE Ramseys, what would I do? I’d throw her down the spiral staircase. I’d put a shoe or a toy or something on one of the stairs, or at the top of it and say she must have tripped. I’d call an ambulance or rush her lifeless body to the hospital myself. Id’ call my lawyers; I’d get out of dodge.

This is the sort of thing that people confronted with a similar situation do. They fake accidents, or they stage break-ins.
...

AK

Unless said shoe or toy was nailed down to the step, then I would expect for it to also come falling down the stairs when she tripped.
 
Unless said shoe or toy was nailed down to the step, then I would expect for it to also come falling down the stairs when she tripped.

Sure, all kinds of things could go wrong, and they often do which is how we know that this is the sort of thing that people do when they have to explain a dead body in the house (They stage an accident, they fake a break-in).

The body is IN the house. You have to explain why it is IN the house. If you fake a kidnapping, then you have to explain why the body is IN the house even though a kidnapper would take it OUT of the house.
...

AK
 
Sure, all kinds of things could go wrong, and they often do which is how we know that this is the sort of thing that people do when they have to explain a dead body in the house (They stage an accident, they fake a break-in).

The body is IN the house. You have to explain why it is IN the house. If you fake a kidnapping, then you have to explain why the body is IN the house even though a kidnapper would take it OUT of the house.
...

AK

Anti-K,
The body is IN the house. You have to explain why it is IN the house. If you fake a kidnapping, then you have to explain why the body is IN the house even though a kidnapper would take it OUT of the house.
That is the explanation, i.e. it is a fake kidnapping, but it went wrong, this part requires no explanation because the kidnapper got away!

Because its a fake kidnapping it requires no logical explanation, precisely because there was no kidnapping!

Only if a kidnapper existed, which he does in most IDI theories, then again your question about the body remaining in the house arises, which also demonstrates why your logic does not apply, i.e. its a fake kidnapping.


.
 
They just needed a little doubt on their side, and their money and stature would take care of the rest. The more elaborate they stage, the more opportunity for evidence to use against them (like, say, a mistake of cutting a screen for staging from the inside instead of from the outside). Even the letter ended up a big risk- you have to believe the kidnapper sat and wrote a 3 page letter in their home with their supplies.
 
They just needed a little doubt on their side, and their money and stature would take care of the rest. The more elaborate they stage, the more opportunity for evidence to use against them (like, say, a mistake of cutting a screen for staging from the inside instead of from the outside). Even the letter ended up a big risk- you have to believe the kidnapper sat and wrote a 3 page letter in their home with their supplies.

As you say, “[t]he more elaborate they stage, the more opportunity for evidence to use against them.” This is a problem – the unnecessary creation of self-incriminating evidence. It makes no sense that they would do this.

As I’ve said before:

If they couldn’t figure out how to get rid of the body, then why invest so much effort and risk into faking a kidnapping and having the police come over? Invest effort (less!!) and risk (less!!) by faking a scenario where 1) it’s reasonable for the body to be in the house (accident) and 2) side-step the police (911 for ambulance or take body to hospital). Less effort, less risk – if they can cover up, run away and escape from a murder they can cover up, run away and escape from an accident.

Why threaten yourself with beheading, etc. if you call the authorities when your plan is to call the authorities?

If they wanted to point away from themselves than why unnecessarily create self-incriminating evidence?
...

AK
 
If they present an accident and the autopsy says that their story does not fit the injury then that just leaves the family as suspects, which they didn't want IMO. Burke had already hit JB with a golf club in a previous incident (they called that an accident). Accident wouldn't explain away sexual abuse, either.
 
If they present an accident and the autopsy says that their story does not fit the injury then that just leaves the family as suspects, which they didn't want IMO. Burke had already hit JB with a golf club in a previous incident (they called that an accident). Accident wouldn't explain away sexual abuse, either.

RDI really hinges on the prior sexual abuse.
Take that away, then there is no motivation to do everything else.
Now I understand why it is believed beyond dispute.
 
If they present an accident and the autopsy says that their story does not fit the injury then that just leaves the family as suspects, which they didn't want IMO. Burke had already hit JB with a golf club in a previous incident (they called that an accident). Accident wouldn't explain away sexual abuse, either.

Sure, anything could happen to do them in. That’s the chances you take. Bottom line is with a fake accident they invest less effort, less risk, and they could side step the police. Just call the lawyers and get out of dodge.
...

AK
 
RDI really hinges on the prior sexual abuse.
Take that away, then there is no motivation to do everything else.
Now I understand why it is believed beyond dispute.

The RDI argument that prior abuse played a role in this crime can only be made by using theory to determine the meaning and value of evidence; it’s theory-first.

Unfortunately, no one has been able to say what form that abuse took (innocent play by children; sexual abuse by mother and/or father; or other; corporal punishment by mother and/or father; etc), no one has even been able to show who might have known about it, and no one has ever presented a reasonable argument for connecting the abuse to the child’s murder.
.

Of course, this another thing that bugs me: if the Ramseys committed the sexual assault at or near point of death to cover up prior abuse, then why would they turn around and cover up that sexual assault? Another very clear, b & w contradiction.
...

AK
 

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