Sources: Casey Anthony Intentionally Killed Caylee Pt. 2

[WICKEDACE]

OKAAAAY...this doesn't sound right? I thought the skull fell out of the bag when the MR picked it up. Did he put it back? If there was cloth on the skull did she wrap her head up in a sheet or a towel so she wouldn't have to look at her? Was it possibly still on there? This just gets more and more hinkey.

I am at a loss on this also... After hearing that there was vegetation growing up through the skull then the skull didn't just fall right out of the bag, I am sorry and don't want to be gruesome, or heartless.... But, if you think about it... Something is growing through something like that you would think that it would have gotten caught on the vegetation and snagged and not just fallen right out of the bag like is being stated. Also, if I remember correctly LP said that the body was covered in a sheet.

 

[Nore]

I think so too. If she had something wrapped around her head in addition to duct tape which is already damning enough, then I can why they are convinced it was intentional. Like you said, it could have been reported incorrectly, but it kind of makes sense...I actually wanted to hurl when I thought about the cloth and all.

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I think she used chloroform to kill her,duct taped her mouth in case she woke up,she couldn't scream.I think it was LP> who said they took a pillow case from the home,not the pillow itself.I read on the BodyFarm site that chloroform doesn't knock out for long.Fear may have caused her to leave the cloth in the bag.The farm I am sure said if chloro.had been used a few times it could be traced in the hair.Just once no.I am going to try to find the article.
-----------------------------------------------
Please bear with me.

Address:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform
If someone can look this area up it is loaded with forences! I tried to copy the url for hair but it didn't go.webtv. is so difficult to get the urls' as sometimes it shuts off and I lose all.This whole site is fantastic..Nore

 

[stagehand]

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I think she used chloroform to kill her,duct taped her mouth in case she woke up,she couldn't scream.I think it was LP> who said they took a pillow case from the home,not the pillow itself.I read on the BodyFarm site that chloroform doesn't knock out for long.Fear may have caused her to leave the cloth in the bag.The farm I am sure said if chloro.had been used a few times it could be traced in the hair.Just once no.I am going to try to find the article.
-----------------------------------------------
Please bear with me.

Address:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform
If someone can look this area up it is loaded with forences! I tried to copy the url for hair but it didn't go.webtv. is so difficult to get the urls' as sometimes it shuts off and I lose all.This whole site is fantastic..Nore

Is this the link you were trying to grab?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair

Yes, Wikipedia can be a great resource. It's a living encyclopedia that anyone can add to and do so freely. Since it is an open encyclopedia you can't always be assured the information there is accurate. Although they do strive to encourage those that contribute also provide references to back up any information or statements of fact..

Thank you for sharing that

 

[OneLostGrl]

At someone else's suggestion I was re-watching the GA jail visit from Aug earlier today. I really think if G had been allowed to keep seeing KC alone (and in person) he would've broken her. It's the only time I've seen her choke up over someone besides herself. It was very brief but she looked so close to breaking while G was talking to her, for a second I actually thought she was going to break.

Another case of to little to late.

I agree. I think she loves her dad, I really do.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree, sorta.
Because of KC's personality, I don't think he would have "broken her". I see it more as a case of she would have opened up to him. She is in control.
Isn't it sad that she lawyered up a few days to soon. All that everyone has gone through, and in the end justice will be served anyway. BUT, even had she confided to George, she would probably waited until she was out on bail so as not to tip LE. I'm not confident that he would have done the right thing. No, not confident in George at all.

nope, I'm not either.

 

[magic-cat]

The only ways that the chloroform is going to be a point of intentional murder is if they tested the hair and it was found in the hair, indicating she had been dosed on more than one ocassion, or if there was a rag duct taped over her mouth/nose area that was still there when she was recovered, or they found a high concentration of chloroform ON anything that was discovered with the remains. Otherwise, it is circumstancial evidence, but then again, so is snow cover on the ground that happens while we sleep. We did not SEE it snow, but there is fairly good evidence that snow did indeed fall as it is now on the ground. Likewise the chloroform-there are instances where circumstancial evidence builds a solid brick wall where nothing else WAS/IS possible, and I think a jury is going to be able to see that picture crystal clear. Circumstancial does NOT mean the evidence has NO value, only that it has limited value. When you "connect all the dots" in this saga, just like you have NO reasonable doubt that it snowed when you see it on the ground in the morning, the jurors are going to be left with NO reasonable doubt that Casey murdered her young daughter because she was "cramping her style".

 

[2goldfish]

if there was a rag duct taped over her mouth/nose area that was still there when she was recovered

snipped.

I thought this at first. but then would they not have called it homicide by that means rather than indeterminate means? SO I guess there was not a rag taped to her little mouth.

 

[kline]

The only ways that the chloroform is going to be a point of intentional murder is if they tested the hair and it was found in the hair, indicating she had been dosed on more than one ocassion, or if there was a rag duct taped over her mouth/nose area that was still there when she was recovered, or they found a high concentration of chloroform ON anything that was discovered with the remains. Otherwise, it is circumstancial evidence, but then again, so is snow cover on the ground that happens while we sleep. We did not SEE it snow, but there is fairly good evidence that snow did indeed fall as it is now on the ground. Likewise the chloroform-there are instances where circumstancial evidence builds a solid brick wall where nothing else WAS/IS possible, and I think a jury is going to be able to see that picture crystal clear. Circumstancial does NOT mean the evidence has NO value, only that it has limited value. When you "connect all the dots" in this saga, just like you have NO reasonable doubt that it snowed when you see it on the ground in the morning, the jurors are going to be left with NO reasonable doubt that Casey murdered her young daughter because she was "cramping her style".

Exactly.It is not as though circumstantial evidence is invalid or inadmissable in court.
It has been used to add to the case for a defendants guilt many times.
Ive gotten the impression from some posters who seem to feel that if the evidence is circumstancial such as Casey's behavior post dissappearence it should be disregarded.
I disagree and im sure a jury is going to take it into consideration very seriously.

 

[Indigo]

snipped.

I thought this at first. but then would they not have called it homicide by that means rather than indeterminate means? SO I guess there was not a rag taped to her little mouth.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that even if a rag was found still taped to her mouth, it would still be impossible to conclusively determine that it was chloroform(or any other substance) that caused Caylee's death. without toxicology reports (blood,etc) I don't believe they can determine the levels were fatal.

It would weigh heavily toward intent however. JMO.

 

[impatientredhead]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that even if a rag was found still taped to her mouth, it would still be impossible to conclusively determine that it was chloroform(or any other substance) that caused Caylee's death. without toxicology reports (blood,etc) I don't believe they can determine the levels were fatal.

Exactly, the state can tell the jury this is what they believe happened and this why. They can show the duct tape wrapped around her head, the rag and the toxicology if one exists. The ME cannot state scientifically that was the cause of death because there is no tissue to test.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that even if a rag was found still taped to her mouth, it would still be impossible to conclusively determine that it was chloroform(or any other substance) that caused Caylee's death. without toxicology reports (blood,etc) I don't believe they can determine the levels were fatal.

It would weigh heavily toward intent however. JMO.

FWIW I have thought more along the lines of cotton balls rather than a rag. And that cotton would have still been stuck to the tape. Remember Dr. G., at the announcement said "manner of death is homicide by undetermined means". But she also went on to say that the cause and/or manner of death could be revisited. They did not have toxicology tests back at that time - but I bet they do now. And, if it was cotton - well that cotten would be nasty, dirty and maybe unrecognizable to the naked eye - but under tox screens - well that's a whole different story now - ain't it?

 

[Indigo]

FWIW I have thought more along the lines of cotton balls rather than a rag. And that cotton would have still been stuck to the tape. Remember Dr. G., at the announcement said "manner of death is homicide by undetermined means". But she also went on to say that the cause and/or manner of death could be revisited. They did not have toxicology tests back at that time - but I bet they do now. And, if it was cotton - well that cotten would be nasty, dirty and maybe unrecognizable to the naked eye - but under tox screens - well that's a whole different story now - ain't it?

This is the report that brought up the subject of the cloth. I certainly hope ABC News checks their sources carefully (emphasis mine):


<snipped>

Police sources said the skull, covered with cloth and found inside a garbage bag, still had duct tape attached to the mouth.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6464439&page=1


I've always wondered how the duct taped stayed attached to the mouth area once the tissue had decomposed.(my apologies for being graphic here) But it makes sense If the skull was found covered with cloth, (notice the wording "covered with cloth" as opposed to "covered with a cloth" )and the duct tape was wound around the mouth area to keep the cloth secure. The tape would still be attached to the cloth in the area of the mouth. The cloth, IMO, would show evidence of cinching.

ETA: If this detail is true, it would prove, IMO, that Casey had no intention of dosing Caylee "safely" with chloroform. That would require that the cloth be removed at some point in the process. This set of details would show, IMO, that it was Casey's intention for the application of chloroform (or other substance) to continue indefinitely without her aid. It may also prove that she never removed the cloth or the tape to check on the well-being of her daughter. This would be a slam dunk, IMO.

 

[SCSam]

This is the report that brought up the subject of the cloth. I certainly hope ABC News checks their sources carefully (emphasis mine):


<snipped>

Police sources said the skull, covered with cloth and found inside a garbage bag, still had duct tape attached to the mouth.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6464439&page=1


I've always wondered how the duct taped stayed attached to the mouth area once the tissue had decomposed.(my apologies for being graphic here) But it makes sense If the skull was found covered with cloth, (notice the wording "covered with cloth" as opposed to "covered with a cloth" )and the duct tape was wound around the mouth area to keep the cloth secure. The tape would still be attached to the cloth in the area of the mouth. The cloth, IMO, would show evidence of cinching.

ETA: If this detail is true, it would prove, IMO, that Casey had no intention of dosing Caylee "safely" with chloroform. That would require that the cloth be removed at some point in the process. This set of details would show, IMO, that it was Casey's intention for the application of chloroform (or other substance) to continue indefinitely without her aid. It may also prove that she never removed the cloth or the tape to check on the well-being of her daughter. This would be a slam dunk, IMO.

I have wondered for some time - IF there was a cloth of some type with duct tape over it and and wrapped several times around Caylee's skull - why would manner of death depend on evidence of choroform?? Would think suffocation would occur whether or not ANY substance was present on a cloth (or anything else)..... MOO.

 

[Indigo]

I have wondered for some time - IF there was a cloth of some type with duct tape over it and and wrapped several times around Caylee's skull - why would manner of death depend on evidence of choroform?? Would think suffocation would occur whether or not ANY substance was present on a cloth (or anything else)..... MOO.

The presence of any toxic substance would go toward proving that Casey applied the cloth and tape while Caylee was still alive. No need to use chloroform or any other toxic substance on an already deceased victim. JMO.


ETA: It seeims possible that soil samples could yield important data regarding the levels of chloroform present at the site. Chloroform is a highly persistent soil contaminant:

<snipped>

The esentially uniform chlorform concentrations with depth shows that volitilization and sorption
are not major removal mechanisms at steady state and that assumption of solid/aqueous/gas-phase equilibrium is justified in this system.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6t6U-nOezjoC&dq=isbn:0873719840

 

[tangerinemoon]

Hmm makes me wonder if she was trying to feed the lie to her parents that what happened to Caylee was an accident, when in reality it was far from it. Mom and dad would believe her since, in their screwy minds, Casey would never purposely harm her daughter .

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Here's another thought. If Caylee was alive when the duct tape was wrapped around her head - she should have struggled at the most and moved around at the least. In this moving around if any stray hairs got caught on the sticky side of the tape and pulled out - then LE now have evidence that tape was put on before death and that hair would NOT have the deathband. I think this is highly probable. Any thoughts?

 

[Sdavidson11]

From personal experience, when I was kidnapped and had my eyes and mouth duct taped the perp put a sock in my mouth first and then taped around my head. I don't know why he used the sock, he eventually slid it down when he raped me and then put it back over my mouth, (My hands are shaking just typing this) it was very hard to breathe. The tape was almost on my nose and I was 22 when this happened, I can't imagine what little Caylee went through if this is true. Most people will never experience something like this but when you do it is hard to believe someone could do this to another human being. I wonder how did KC know about socks in the mouth and duct tape? The person who did this to me was an escaped prisoner. I am just sick to think of Caylee's final minutes. Any questions don't hesitate to ask, it has been 18 years and I feel that I may be able to answer questions rather than speculate how this was done or the feeling of being bound and gagged at the hand of another.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Bolded by me

ITA with the part I have bolded.

The only ways that the chloroform is going to be a point of intentional murder is if they tested the hair and it was found in the hair, indicating she had been dosed on more than one ocassion, or if there was a rag duct taped over her mouth/nose area that was still there when she was recovered, or they found a high concentration of chloroform ON anything that was discovered with the remains. Otherwise, it is circumstancial evidence, but then again, so is snow cover on the ground that happens while we sleep. We did not SEE it snow, but there is fairly good evidence that snow did indeed fall as it is now on the ground. Likewise the chloroform-there are instances where circumstancial evidence builds a solid brick wall where nothing else WAS/IS possible, and I think a jury is going to be able to see that picture crystal clear. Circumstancial does NOT mean the evidence has NO value, only that it has limited value. When you "connect all the dots" in this saga, just like you have NO reasonable doubt that it snowed when you see it on the ground in the morning, the jurors are going to be left with NO reasonable doubt that Casey murdered her young daughter because she was "cramping her style".

We still have yet to hear, of course, the totality of evidence upon which the members of the jury will be required to base their decisions.

This is the report that brought up the subject of the cloth. I certainly hope ABC News checks their sources carefully (emphasis mine):


<snipped>

Police sources said the skull, covered with cloth and found inside a garbage bag, still had duct tape attached to the mouth.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6464439&page=1


I've always wondered how the duct taped stayed attached to the mouth area once the tissue had decomposed.(my apologies for being graphic here) But it makes sense If the skull was found covered with cloth, (notice the wording "covered with cloth" as opposed to "covered with a cloth" )and the duct tape was wound around the mouth area to keep the cloth secure. The tape would still be attached to the cloth in the area of the mouth. The cloth, IMO, would show evidence of cinching.

ETA: If this detail is true, it would prove, IMO, that Casey had no intention of dosing Caylee "safely" with chloroform. That would require that the cloth be removed at some point in the process. This set of details would show, IMO, that it was Casey's intention for the application of chloroform (or other substance) to continue indefinitely without her aid. It may also prove that she never removed the cloth or the tape to check on the well-being of her daughter. This would be a slam dunk, IMO.

I have wondered for some time - IF there was a cloth of some type with duct tape over it and and wrapped several times around Caylee's skull - why would manner of death depend on evidence of choroform?? Would think suffocation would occur whether or not ANY substance was present on a cloth (or anything else)..... MOO.

Even the statement above (from abc news) is a far cry from reporting there was tape wrapped around the cloth, seems like we are kinda getting ahead of ourselves...

 

[Indigo]

We still have yet to hear, of course, the totality of evidence upon which the members of the jury will be required to base their decisions.





Even the statement above (from abc news) is a far cry from reporting there was tape wrapped around the cloth, seems like we are kinda getting ahead of ourselves...

Fair enough, kiki. Yet, this thread began with the news that LE claimed "overwhelming evidence" that Casey "intentionally killed" Caylee and was "solely responsible" for her death. What we have as present facts are obviously not overwhelming evidence. I understand that wild speculation leads only to a dead end, and I believe I was careful to state that this was JMO. My apologies if this was offensive to you.

:blowkiss:

 

[zoey]

From personal experience, when I was kidnapped and had my eyes and mouth duct taped the perp put a sock in my mouth first and then taped around my head. I don't know why he used the sock, he eventually slid it down when he raped me and then put it back over my mouth, (My hands are shaking just typing this) it was very hard to breathe. The tape was almost on my nose and I was 22 when this happened, I can't imagine what little Caylee went through if this is true. Most people will never experience something like this but when you do it is hard to believe someone could do this to another human being. I wonder how did KC know about socks in the mouth and duct tape? The person who did this to me was an escaped prisoner. I am just sick to think of Caylee's final minutes. Any questions don't hesitate to ask, it has been 18 years and I feel that I may be able to answer questions rather than speculate how this was done or the feeling of being bound and gagged at the hand of another.

:blowkiss: how horrid for you....you do have first hand knowledge of how this may have felt for a baby.....were you able to try to get any of the tape off?