South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

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So we're back on Monday September 11th, probably with one week of evidence before the state closes its case.

That puts the defence case starting around Monday Sept 18th, and then there's the defence case starting for Christopher Panayiotou on Tuesday Sept 26th, with CP unlikely to take the stand.

I don't know much about how trials work. I'm wondering what more evidence would there be besides Joubert's? Or is he going to give evidence one day and Botha will take the rest of the week to cross examine? Or does the prosecution give a summary as part of its evidence?
 
I don't know much about how trials work. I'm wondering what more evidence would there be besides Joubert's? Or is he going to give evidence one day and Botha will take the rest of the week to cross examine? Or does the prosecution give a summary as part of its evidence?
The state has indicated that Joubert is their last witness. I don't know how long he will take going through his evidence, I guess a day or two. And then the defence will cross-examine him, and how long they will choose to stretch that out is anyone's guess. I don't think it should take more than a week on the stand all told, but it's possible it could go into a second week.

Then, unless the defence plays more games, like asking Desai to order that the state calls another witness they don't want to call themselves, the state will close its case after Joubert leaves the stand.

Then the defence can ask for the case to be dismissed if it wants to say that the state has not proven its charges, or if it doesn't do that or is ordered to proceed, it opens its case. Unless there is a special reason that one of its witnesses/experts can't be available any other time, the accused gives testimony first, if he is going to testify that is. Then the state cross-examines him, and then the defence can re-examine him. Then they go through that same procedure with all the defence witnesses.

When the defence has been through all its witnesses they close their case.

After that the state gives its summing up, a whole picture of all the evidence they have presented, calling the judge's attention to all the relevant points of testimony that they say proves their case and discredits the defence case, as well as relevant case law for the judge, on how he should approach any contentious points. That is followed by the defence summing up when they try to trash the state's case.

Then the judge adjourns to consider his verdict.
 
RSBM

Advocate Botha says defence has booked their expert, Mr Steyl, who flew in from KZN. Incurred costs for him to be present.

Galloway told him on Saturday that Joubert wouldn't be available today. Botha says his client is fast running out of funds. The case is costing him a lot.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...in-van-breda-trial-to-take-the-stand-20170821


This is what's so confusing and maybe even downright deceptive, why didn't Mr Steyl take the stand? Was he really there? Have we access to the list of witnesses to check out this Mr Steyl?

Galloway informed Botha on Saturday that her witness couldn't attend court and he goes ahead with flying Mr Steyl in on Monday?! The cost of return flight from KZN, Durban to Cape Town (2hr 10 min) is $176-208??

The only Mr Steyl from KwaZulu-Natal (KZN) I can find is a ballistic expert (firearms)?? Not him?! :pullhair: I edited post after reading more of Mr Steyl's site.

I am actively involved in most aspects of crime scene investigation with a primary focus on firearm & toolmark examinations and analysis. I am continually involved in the collection, preservation, analysis and interpretation of physical evidence, shooting scene reconstruction, wound ballistic determination during autopsies and expert witness testimony. Explanatory reports and computer drawn sketches of the scene are compiled for court presentation.

In addition to the skills mentioned above I am often requested to investigate cases requiring the following skills: Ballistic Matching, Tyre Imprint Identification, Footwear Identification, Serial Number Restoration, and Blood Spatter Analysis.


http://www.forensicballistic.co.za/



https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: we have incurred the cost of flying our witness here and he has changed his schedules we have incurred these costs, we can't recuperate, my client is running out of funds, we have other matters too
 
Estelle. Thank you.

The information, the articles, the literature you have provided is outstanding.
It is so helpful in trying to figure out HvB character.
Looking forward to reading loads more from you.

Thanks, Imar. Much appreciated.
 
RSBM




This is what's so confusing and maybe even downright deceptive, why didn't Mr Steyl take the stand? Was he really there? Have we access to the list of witnesses to check out this Mr Steyl?

Galloway informed Botha on Saturday that her witness couldn't attend court and he goes ahead with flying Mr Steyl in on Monday?! The cost of return flight from KZN, Durban to Cape Town (2hr 10 min) is $176-208??

The only Mr Steyl from KwaZulu-Natal (KZN) I can find is a ballistic expert (firearms)?? Not him?! :pullhair: I edited post after reading more of Mr Steyl's site.




http://www.forensicballistic.co.za/



https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: we have incurred the cost of flying our witness here and he has changed his schedules we have incurred these costs, we can't recuperate, my client is running out of funds, we have other matters too

My understanding is that because the counsels are not experts in these various fields of science, blood spatter or dna for example, they have their expert in court to guide their questions and challenge the state's evidence. I don't know if they intend to call them back as well, to testify during the defence's case. I'd say they probably will if their expert has a different analysis that can't be introduced through cross-examination of the state's witness.

In the case of their dna expert, I doubt they will bring her back as a witness because the defence didn't examine any of the dna samples themselves. So she was just there to tell counsel where the state had made errors.
 
My understanding is that because the counsels are not experts in these various fields of science, blood spatter or dna for example, they have their expert in court to guide their questions and challenge the state's evidence. I don't know if they intend to call them back as well, to testify during the defence's case. I'd say they probably will if their expert has a different analysis that can't be introduced through cross-examination of the state's witness.

In the case of their dna expert, I doubt they will bring her back as a witness because the defence didn't examine any of the dna samples themselves. So she was just there to tell counsel where the state had made errors.

Thank you for the explanation Tortoise, I was so confused about these experts especially re; the defence.
 
RSBM




This is what's so confusing and maybe even downright deceptive, why didn't Mr Steyl take the stand? Was he really there? Have we access to the list of witnesses to check out this Mr Steyl?

Galloway informed Botha on Saturday that her witness couldn't attend court and he goes ahead with flying Mr Steyl in on Monday?! The cost of return flight from KZN, Durban to Cape Town (2hr 10 min) is $176-208??

The only Mr Steyl from KwaZulu-Natal (KZN) I can find is a ballistic expert (firearms)?? Not him?! :pullhair: I edited post after reading more of Mr Steyl's site.




http://www.forensicballistic.co.za/



https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: we have incurred the cost of flying our witness here and he has changed his schedules we have incurred these costs, we can't recuperate, my client is running out of funds, we have other matters too

Can Botha start introducing witnesses for the Defence before the prosecution case is wrapped up? I thought it was usual for the PT to finish and then the suspect takes the stand before any Defence witnesses. Either Botha was lying or the indication is that HvB is not going to take the stand. Surely HvB would spend some time, possibly days, telling his lies if he was going to appear before the court.
 
I've been away for a couple of weeks but it seems I've not missed much in terms of court time!

Thank you for your thoughts and insights - very interesting to read.
 
Oh Lou, you've missed NOTHING!!! OISA!

Hope it was a good 'away' (not in prison, or hospital, or anything :D )
 
Oh Lou, you've missed NOTHING!!! OISA!

Hope it was a good 'away' (not in prison, or hospital, or anything :D )

Lol no, :laugh: I had my mother visiting for a couple of weeks so we were out and about most days,
 
I can count on one hand the number of non UK cases I've followed during my time on WS, however i caught sight if this thread 3 days ago and have since spent the last 2 days reading from the very first thread...

All i can say is wow...Henri can't surely think he will actually get away with this, can he?

Even his defence counsel are ridiculously pulling apart testimonies where there is no need to purely because they have little else to actually use to defend Henri

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
I can count on one hand the number of non UK cases I've followed during my time on WS, however i caught sight if this thread 3 days ago and have since spent the last 2 days reading from the very first thread...

All i can say is wow...Henri can't surely think he will actually get away with this, can he?

Even his defence counsel are ridiculously pulling apart testimonies where there is no need to purely because they have little else to actually use to defend Henri

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

:wagon:

Thank goodness we seem to have a half decent judge on this case. I think Desai has shown he is on top of the DT's games. So different from the Oscar Pistorius trial where the judge sucked up the DT's distortions.
 
I can count on one hand the number of non UK cases I've followed during my time on WS, however i caught sight if this thread 3 days ago and have since spent the last 2 days reading from the very first thread...

All i can say is wow...Henri can't surely think he will actually get away with this, can he?

Even his defence counsel are ridiculously pulling apart testimonies where there is no need to purely because they have little else to actually use to defend Henri

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Thanks sar2them,
I agree with both points.
After Botha's ridiculous, long winded, unnecessary questioning,
he now states 'the trial has dragged on'!
Hope when we return, the judge will 'put him in his box' and remind him of this,
when Botha goes on, and on, about 'nothing'.
 
Peter Hyatt, a statement analyst who trains law enforcement officials, explains how a liar will often build a narrative, to sell you the lie. It's information that is inserted in a statement which isn't relevant to the event, and is there to get you to think this is a nice person and buy into the narrative that they didn't do what they are accused of doing. Anyone interested can see his interviews on youtube.

He gives the example of a children's story which opens with a line like - it was just an ordinary day... The child listening knows it wasn't just an ordinary day, because it's there as a prelude to something extraordinary happening, and knows the first line is a deception.

Henri starts his plea statement with "There was nothing out of the ordinary the evening before the attack."

From this we can discern that something out of the ordinary did happen that evening. That is why he has a need to speak about it and sell a narrative. People speak of things that occur, not things that didn't occur. Why start with 'nothing unusual (that could have been a reason for me to kill my family) happened 9 to 10 hours before my family was attacked'? You wouldn't start a witness account of an armed bank robbery by explaining what you ate for breakfast 3 hours earlier. If that's all he was - a witness to the crime. He would start by saying I'd been on my laptop in bed and at about 3am I got up to use the bathroom. Rudi was asleep..

So we know something happened that evening, because he had nothing of relevance to the crime to tell, but he mentioned it anyway, so he is bringing the relevance of the evening to our attention. I think of it like this - it was not necessary for there to have been a family fight that evening, for him to formulate a plan to kill his family. He could have formulated a plan that day or a week earlier. The fact he focuses on the evening means that time frame was relevant to him. If he'd seen a shadow or heard a dog bark or seen a stranger lurking in the garden that would have made the evening relevant to mention. His account of wine and dinner and watching a film are there to sell his lie. Truth doesn't need selling, it doesn't need hearts and flowers.

Pistorius did the same. He gave an hour by hour account of the evening before, which had no obvious relevance to his story of being asleep and waking up at 3am. We see the relevance - it's a sales pitch. The question to ask is why do they need one?

I think Desai will find it is no coincidence that HvB just happened to be the only family member who was still awake 4 hours after they went to bed, and left his bed at the exact moment the axeman struck. That is some timing there!
 
Peter Hyatt, a statement analyst who trains law enforcement officials, explains how a liar will often build a narrative, to sell you the lie. It's information that is inserted in a statement which isn't relevant to the event, and is there to get you to think this is a nice person and buy into the narrative that they didn't do what they are accused of doing. Anyone interested can see his interviews on youtube.

He gives the example of a children's story which opens with a line like - it was just an ordinary day... The child listening knows it wasn't just an ordinary day, because it's there as a prelude to something extraordinary happening, and knows the first line is a deception.

Henri starts his plea statement with "There was nothing out of the ordinary the evening before the attack."

From this we can discern that something out of the ordinary did happen that evening. That is why he has a need to speak about it and sell a narrative. People speak of things that occur, not things that didn't occur. Why start with 'nothing unusual (that could have been a reason for me to kill my family) happened 9 to 10 hours before my family was attacked'? You wouldn't start a witness account of an armed bank robbery by explaining what you ate for breakfast 3 hours earlier. If that's all he was - a witness to the crime. He would start by saying I'd been on my laptop in bed and at about 3am I got up to use the bathroom. Rudi was asleep..

So we know something happened that evening, because he had nothing of relevance to the crime to tell, but he mentioned it anyway, so he is bringing the relevance of the evening to our attention. I think of it like this - it was not necessary for there to have been a family fight that evening, for him to formulate a plan to kill his family. He could have formulated a plan that day or a week earlier. The fact he focuses on the evening means that time frame was relevant to him. If he'd seen a shadow or heard a dog bark or seen a stranger lurking in the garden that would have made the evening relevant to mention. His account of wine and dinner and watching a film are there to sell his lie. Truth doesn't need selling, it doesn't need hearts and flowers.

Pistorius did the same. He gave an hour by hour account of the evening before, which had no obvious relevance to his story of being asleep and waking up at 3am. We see the relevance - it's a sales pitch. The question to ask is why do they need one?

I think Desai will find it is no coincidence that HvB just happened to be the only family member who was still awake 4 hours after they went to bed, and left his bed at the exact moment the axeman struck. That is some timing there!

Wonderful analysis of HvB's account Tortoise and the last part too! Why these untraceable, elusive intruders would choose to attack the family at the precise moment the biggest brute in the house is in the bathroom?!
HvB is a 'story teller' like OP when it comes to their bad behaviour, both pathological liars I suspect.
 
Also, why would the attackers choose to target a relatively difficult house to get into, which has 5 people staying there - including 3 strong, healthy men when theres a single female with 2 small children next door? Oh and don't forget they went to all that trouble and didnt actually leave with anything...

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
In preparation for next week, I am reading through some of the last evidence, in particular, Otto’s. I loved what she said here:-

“Don’t confuse the court with all kinds of calculations. Complicated mathematics does not change the facts‚" said the chief DNA analyst at day 31 of the Henri van Breda triple-axe murder trial.”

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/so...bredas-counsel-accused-of-stalling-the-trial/

On the link there is a great photo of the very disagreeable Botha which, IMO, shows what a disagreeable counsel he looks. I wonder if he is like this in his private life.
 
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