South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[Interested Bystander]

JJ, is it usual for the defence's Expert Witness reports not to be handed to the PT before they take the stand? If you remember Roux did this to Nel (hence my comment above) and handed their reports over only 15 minutes before the first EW appeared. I have read that it is possible for the Defence to do what Botha wants (I will see if I can find the link). I think it highly suspicious and I think Desai has made it clear that he is aware of Botha's shenanigans. I really hope he doesn't allow it.

 

[Interested Bystander]

This is what I found re defence statements but it is for the UK and whilst SA Law does monstly follow UK Law I think they also use Roman-Dutch Law. In the UK I don't think the Defence would get away with not producing Expert Witness Statements before the offender gave his testimony.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/disclosure_manual/disclosure_manual_chapter_15/

 

[Tortoise]

Criminal Procedure Act 51 of 1977 (South Africa)

151 Accused may address court and adduce evidence

(1) (a) If an accused is not under section 174 discharged at the close of the case forthe prosecution, the court shall ask him whether he intends adducing any evidence onbehalf of the defence, and if he answers in the affirmative, he may address the courtfor the purpose of indicating to the court, without comment, what evidence he intendsadducing on behalf of the defence.

(b) The court shall also ask the accused whether he himself intends givingevidence on behalf of the defence, and-

(i) if the accused answers in the affirmative, he shall, except where the court on good cause shown allows otherwise, be called as a witness before anyother witness for the defence; or
(ii) if the accused answers in the negative but decides, after other evidence hasbeen given on behalf of the defence, to give evidence himself, the courtmay draw such inference from the accused's conduct as may be reasonablein the circumstances.

----

Scheduling witnesses is hardly 'good cause'. Botha is just trying his luck. If one of the witnessses had a surgery pre-booked or had to fly in from overseas, or even if it was to have put the remaining 3 days this week (now lost) to good use, it would be different, but he's trying to stretch this allowance of 'good cause' to all his experts. It's obviously just dirty tricks. I'm sure Desai will see it for what it is.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks Tortoise. Exactly what I was looking for. I cannot imagine Desai would fall for Botha's tricks.

 

[Tortoise]

Initial Statement

"Rudi was just lying on the bed."


Plea explanation

"I remember seeing Rudi from my peripheral view, moving around on his bed rather violently. [...]

I started going up the stairs and could hear Rudi in the bedroom. [...]

I later woke lying on the stairs. ... I then saw Marli move. ... I could also hear what sounded like Rudi making gurgling sounds in the room."


Emergency call [video=youtube;TFACTwOL6q4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFACTwOL6q4[/video]

(starts from 4m 55 secs into the call)

...someone attacked my family.
hey?
Someone has attacked my family in my house.
okay, so you need the police..or an ambulance?
an ambulance please, yes
who is injured?
My..I think everyone
Everyone in your house?
Everyone, 4 people yes
Adults, 2 adults?
2 adults and 2.. well 3 adults and 1 teenage girl yes
What are the injuries?
Um head injuries I look uh..
Are they conscious?
I don't think so my sister's moving but that's it.

---
Oh dear Henri, how are you going to explain that.

I think it's really interesting that he says my house. It's always stood out to me that he didn't say our house. Could just be a cultural thing but I think he already felt like lord of the manor. Burning his cigarettes on the floor.

Talking of cigarettes, I heard Botha saying that the brown loafers at the bottom of the stairs were Henri's and he used them as a hiding place for his cigarettes. Oh perleease..is he saying he never used to wear them and he had no where else to hide his cigarettes? As if Teresa wouldn't have said move your shoes Henri.

 

[JudgeJudi]

RSBM

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Galloway this also leaves it open to accused to change his version based on concessions of his experts or to not testify at all

G: we are yet to receive any report from any experts from the defence

Desai- I will allow any adjournment to allow the state to properly consider the reports before cross examination

How refreshing to have Desai say this, unlike in the OP trial where reports were handed up as the witness entered the witness box and the State had to ask for an adjournment, and pray that they got it.

 

[JudgeJudi]

JJ. Sorry to hear you were involved in Australia's worst train disaster.
Do you attend the Memorials, or is it too upsetting?
Good luck with your elderly relative.
They are so frail, at that age, and these falls can be very debilitating to recover from.

I am very worried, that Botha has introduced so much ambiguity into evidence, blood works etc.
Now if their experts are allowed earlier, of course, HvB will phrase his responses to be in agreement with these Defense experts and their suggestions.

They definitely can arrive later, what a feeble reason, to begin before HvB.
HELP. :gaah:

Thanks tmar. No, I don't go to the annual memorials. Some things are best left in the past. I do watch the news each year to see them throwing the roses down on the tracks and this is enough for me.

You always feel you're on a rollercoaster with SA trials and I haven't seen one yet that's been straight forward. Of course having a totally inept judge doesn't help. At least that's one thing we don't have to worry about here.

 

[JudgeJudi]

JJ, is it usual for the defence's Expert Witness reports not to be handed to the PT before they take the stand? If you remember Roux did this to Nel (hence my comment above) and handed their reports over only 15 minutes before the first EW appeared. I have read that it is possible for the Defence to do what Botha wants (I will see if I can find the link). I think it highly suspicious and I think Desai has made it clear that he is aware of Botha's shenanigans. I really hope he doesn't allow it.

I don't know if it's usual IB, but as you say, we've seen it all before. In fact IIRC, Dr Merryll Vorster, the defence forensic shrink, handed up her report as she entered the courtroom. On the other hand, the State must produce their reports on discovery ... so the defence can be prepared. I agree with you that Desai is aware of Botha's tactics, but he's always very careful to ensure that he doesn't give Botha room to complain about his decisions and allow him to say HvB wasn't getting a fair trial.

 

[JudgeJudi]

This is what I found re defence statements but it is for the UK and whilst SA Law does monstly follow UK Law I think they also use Roman-Dutch Law. In the UK I don't think the Defence would get away with not producing Expert Witness Statements before the offender gave his testimony.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/disclosure_manual/disclosure_manual_chapter_15/

Your link is unhelpful IB. Fortunately I just found some notes that I made on this very subject in the OP trial. I recall that I spent quite some time looking into this and found nothing to indicate that the defence had to submit reports pre-trial. What they must submit is a list of their witnesses (names, addresses and date of birth).

 

[JudgeJudi]

Unfortunately we haven't been able to see the post mortems. Frequently they estimate the time of death.

The murders took place at approx. 3am. I thought it decidedly odd that Botha said his pathologist, Dr Perumal, states that Rudi could have been alive for up to 2hours 40mins after the attack. What an extraordinarily precise time!

I now know how he arrived at that time. Henri said in his Plea Explanation:

"I am unsure how long I was unconsciousness but from the light outside I could see that it was already light".

The weather records for 27 January 2015 reveal that sunrise was at 5:38.

The defence obviously would like Rudi to be alive for quite some time after the murders.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Your link is unhelpful IB. Fortunately I just found some notes that I made on this very subject in the OP trial. I recall that I spent quite some time looking into this and found nothing to indicate that the defence had to submit reports pre-trial. What they must submit is a list of their witnesses (names, addresses and date of birth).

Yes, that is all I could find. Just the general procedure for the trial. However Tortoise came up with the right answers. I am sure you have your notes tucked away safely. It might be interesting to see them again if you can find them.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think this was the info re expert witnesses I read the other day:-

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/p...al/docs/2012/crim-proc-rules-2013-part-33.pdf

 

[Tortoise]

Unfortunately we haven't been able to see the post mortems. Frequently they estimate the time of death.

The murders took place at approx. 3am. I thought it decidedly odd that Botha said his pathologist, Dr Perumal, states that Rudi could have been alive for up to 2hours 40mins after the attack. What an extraordinarily precise time!

I now know how he arrived at that time. Henri said in his Plea Explanation:

"I am unsure how long I was unconsciousness but from the light outside I could see that it was already light".

The weather records for 27 January 2015 reveal that sunrise was at 5:38.

The defence obviously would like Rudi to be alive for quite some time after the murders.

He made a search for emergency numbers at 4:27 am. His next call was at 7:12 am. The difference between these times is 2 hrs 45 mins, which is where the defence are getting their time for Henri's coma and Rudi's survival.

In his initial statement he said -

"I was still on my laptop in my room watching television series called One Piece and it was on the internet till 03:00 and then I started to listen to music on my cellphone to get asleep. I then took out my earphones and put my phone on my bedside table, then decided to go to the toilet and took my phone with me in my pocket."

I think he gave the time of 3 am because he checked, not guessed, and thought police would be able to verify this from his laptop history, and it was a time he had waited for to spring into action when everyone would be deeply asleep and not hear him go downstairs to take the dog out and get the axe.

One and a half hours seems about right for his carnage, clean up and staging before he made a call at 4:27 am. It seems likely he'd attacked them all within the space of about 10 minutes.

But I think he will try to distance himself from the time he gave of 3 am when he gives evidence, and that is why his plea explanation isn't time specific. It just says "at some point long after we went to bed I went to the bathroom..."

He can't justify the attacks lasting 1.5 hours. Poor Henri, so many problems arising from his first statement, given when his memory would have been fresh compared to 2 years later. I'm expecting lots of "I was in shock. He didn't write down what I said"...blah blah blurrr.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

He made a search for emergency numbers at 4:27 am. His next call was at 7:12 am. The difference between these times is 2 hrs 45 mins, which is where the defence are getting their time for Henri's coma and Rudi's survival.

In his initial statement he said -

"I was still on my laptop in my room watching television series called One Piece and it was on the internet till 03:00 and then I started to listen to music on my cellphone to get asleep. I then took out my earphones and put my phone on my bedside table, then decided to go to the toilet and took my phone with me in my pocket."

I think he gave the time of 3 am because he checked, not guessed, and thought police would be able to verify this from his laptop history, and it was a time he had waited for to spring into action when everyone would be deeply asleep and not hear him go downstairs to take the dog out and get the axe.

One and a half hours seems about right for his carnage, clean up and staging before he made a call at 4:27 am. It seems likely he'd attacked them all within the space of about 10 minutes.

But I think he will try to distance himself from the time he gave of 3 am when he gives evidence, and that is why his plea explanation isn't time specific. It just says "at some point long after we went to bed I went to the bathroom..."

He can't justify the attacks lasting 1.5 hours. Poor Henri, so many problems arising from his first statement, given when his memory would have been fresh compared to 2 years later. I'm expecting lots of "I was in shock. He didn't write down what I said"...blah blah blurrr.

We better prepare with sick buckets because HvB is really going to test our patience and sanity! The unconscious, 'semi-coma' 2 hr 40 min is just absolutely laughable! This would make world news if he and Botha could get away with it!
The self inflicted wounds and the carefully thrown axe for effect is pitiful and infantile! HvB will be cast as the victim, then hero back to victim again in a blind of an eye!
The defence can never say HvB wasn't given a fair trial, this is surely the threatre of macabre with such grandiose tales, awful!! :cry:

 

[JudgeJudi]

Could people please check their inboxes. If they're full, we can't send any more PMs.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I'm thinking Galloway should persistently question HvB until he concedes there was an argument that night to kick off her cross examination. Even if he doesn't, it will unnerve him for the rest of the cross.
OP managed to successfully deny an argument with Reeva but HvB not only denies it but has locked himself into a lie that can easily be disputed.
The neighbour heard 2 or 3 males aggressively arguing at 12 Goske St, between 10pm -12.10am. This argument woke her young son and herself.

Combrink says Henri, Rudi and his Dad watched Star Trek 2 - lots of action and people screaming at each other. They watched it because they got a new sound system and they got the film for free.

Henri's initial statement -

Marli went to bed at 21:00. My father then went to bed at about 21:00 and myself and Rudy went to bed 23:00


HvB never mentioned they watched a movie together but went into detail about the alcohol he and his father consumed with dinner and afterwards.
The 26 January, 2015 was a Monday night, an ordinary work night and Martin went to bed around 9pm which would be expected unless something disturbing kept him awake, for example an argument between or with his son/s.
Also, if the movie was so loud the neighbour could hear, Martin and Teresa surely wouldn't have allowed this especially on a week night. The pictures taken of the living room with the T.V has small speakers beside it, no surround system to 'test'.
The living room is at the front of the house, noise can travel on a still night but this isn't credible if Teresa, Marli and Martin are supposedly asleep while neighbours can hear it.

If Galloway makes headway she can gain control early and set the scene for what really happened. Botha is going to cry foul at every opportunity but hopefully Judge Desai will have none of it!

I would love to hear everyone else's ideas how the cross-exam of HvB should go.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-murder-trial-day-12-20170516

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/read-henri-van-bredas-first-statement-to-police-20170601

 

[JudgeJudi]

As I've mentioned previously, it's the many discrepancies between both statements that reveal the extent of the lies. He's supposed to stutter when he's nervous so it will be interesting to listen to him as he'll be under huge pressure. Several facets of his story may change again now that he's heard the State's evidence, but he'll have some excuse up his sleeve just like OP when he said, "I didn't have time to think". Galloway has a lot of material to work with and her closing argument should be excellent. I'm lease:

We're going to need plenty of green buckets.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Immediately after the attack on his family, Henri was taken in by his uncle and aunt André and Sonja du Toit, while his sister was recuperating in the hospital. Friends spoke of how Henri kept to himself so much that even those close to him battled to speak to him. When asked about the murders he apparently sounded confused and talks in riddles. “He talks about ‘the man’. There is always ‘the man’.”

Oops. I guess he tells the truth to his friends and saves his lies for the police and court.

http://www.news24.com/You/Archive/one-year-later-we-look-back-on-the-de-zalze-axe-murder-20170728

 

[JudgeJudi]

They look so happy together.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/07/2524DF0200000578-2943669-image-m-2_1423303629036.jpg

 

[Interested Bystander]

If Desai decides that he will not allow Botha to use his Expert Witnesses before HvB takes the stand, what will happen tomorrow? Will HvB be giving testimony OR will Botha go for a delay until October in order to coach HvB? Any guesses?