South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[Tortoise]

If Desai decides that he will not allow Botha to use his Expert Witnesses before HvB takes the stand, what will happen tomorrow? Will HvB be giving testimony OR will Botha go for a delay until October in order to coach HvB? Any guesses?

Tomorrow Desai will be hearing argument for and against allowing the expert witnesses to testify before HvB. Then he will go into his chambers to decide and come back with his decision.

In an efficient court I think that could all be wrapped up by morning tea break but in SA I reckon they could string that out to about lunch time easily.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if HvB chooses not to testify if Desai says no to Botha. I'm not saying that's what I'm expecting but I wouldn't be surprised, because I think that's the nature of him.

It's strange how he went and sat on the court steps when they were showing crime scene footage in court but he's coped with the explicit blood spatter photos.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Tracey has made a walkthrough video of the crime scene. This link is below.

[video=youtube;tBSBDKzY64w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=64&v=tBSBDKzY64w[/video]


I haven’t watched it yet (am about to) so I have no other comment to make at the moment.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Having watched the video it helps with making sense of Henri's movements, ie where he would need to be if he slaughtered his family. It does seem that Tracey is making too many allowances for his story but maybe some of you will feel differently. Perhaps she is trying to be fair to both sides.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Tomorrow Desai will be hearing argument for and against allowing the expert witnesses to testify before HvB. Then he will go into his chambers to decide and come back with his decision.

In an efficient court I think that could all be wrapped up by morning tea break but in SA I reckon they could string that out to about lunch time easily.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if HvB chooses not to testify if Desai says no to Botha. I'm not saying that's what I'm expecting but I wouldn't be surprised, because I think that's the nature of him.

It's strange how he went and sat on the court steps when they were showing crime scene footage in court but he's coped with the explicit blood spatter photos.

Tortoise, did not Desai say that he wanted the heads before Thursday. I thought he meant he would determine whether or not he would allow any argument and that he would let them know on Thursday morning but I am probably wrong and I know you are very knowledgeable re procedures.

I am hoping Desai turns up and says I have made up my mind (having read the heads) that the Defence Expert Witnesses will not be heard until after HvB gives his account although I am still unsure, even if he decides this, whether or not he will defer proceedings until the start of the new term.

 

[Tortoise]

Having watched the video it helps with making sense of Henri's movements, ie where he would need to be if he slaughtered his family. It does seem that Tracey is making too many allowances for his story but maybe some of you will feel differently. Perhaps she is trying to be fair to both sides.

She's an absolute scream. Gullible or doesn't want to be sued.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise, did not Desai say that he wanted the heads before Thursday. I thought he meant he would determine whether or not he would allow any argument and that he would let them know on Thursday morning but I am probably wrong and I know you are very knowledgeable re procedures.

I am hoping Desai turns up and says I have made up my mind (having read the heads) that the Defence Expert Witnesses will not be heard until after HvB gives his account although I am still unsure, even if he decides this, whether or not he will defer proceedings until the start of the new term.

He asked for heads before Thursday but I think they still have to present verbal arguments to him. I hope I'm wrong and he'll come sailing into court at 10 am and say NO WAY!

But I'm ready for the disappointment. It's SA. Better get some blood pressure pills in. Every time I watch this trial I think that's it, I can't watch this any more, he's going to walk. I might have to drop out for my own sanity, we'll see.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Tracey has made a walkthrough video of the crime scene. This link is below.

[video=youtube;tBSBDKzY64w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=64&v=tBSBDKzY64w[/video]


I haven’t watched it yet (am about to) so I have no other comment to make at the moment.

Tracey made a couple of good points to remember early in the video, the handbag and laptop on dining table was untouched, the intruders would have walked/run past these at least twice and didn't take them, why? Two luxurious vehicles in the garage not taken by the intruders, why not? Drawers left open, nothing taken.

Tracey repeats Joubert's assertion that Henri's close proximity to the intruder on the stairs which he measured with tape should have enabled Henri to make direct contact without throwing the axe, the state/we 'know' he planted the axe for staging purposes, but even in his own statement he threw the axe after the intruder was even standing there, why?

Tracey states Joubert's findings that Teresa and Marli's legs were facing Henri's bedroom doorway, in Henri's statement the 'intruder' left his bedroom to attack them which we 'know' was HvB, so no need to argue that one.

No blood trace of Marli on HvB isn't a given because Judge Desai asked whether all the blood samples taken were tested and Joubert replied, no. So Tracey didn't mention this but the Judge is on the ball. Teresa's blood spatter was found on Henri's shorts and a drop on his socks.

Tracey pointed out where Henri allegedly fainted at the top of the stairs after the fight with the intruder/throwing the axe, but failed to mention Joubert's findings that the direction of the dried blood trickles from Henri's wounds didn't support this.

The two blood spatters on the neighbour's wall was explained by Joubert, while Rudi was violently attacked in the bedroom above blood sprayed out the window against the wall.
Tracey said the defence believes it was transferred by the bloodied intruder's clothing or an object like an axe while fleeing the scene.
She didn't mention the assessor asking Joubert would there be a trail of blood droplets from the object/gloves/clothing onto the ground/grass leading away from the house, Joubert replied, possibly.

Obviously, I have time on my hands to write this out but just couldn't help having the last word.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

He asked for heads before Thursday but I think they still have to present verbal arguments to him. I hope I'm wrong and he'll come sailing into court at 10 am and say NO WAY!

But I'm ready for the disappointment. It's SA. Better get some blood pressure pills in. Every time I watch this trial I think that's it, I can't watch this any more, he's going to walk. I might have to drop out for my own sanity, we'll see.

I hope you can stick it out Tortoise, your breakdown of the events are invaluable, I've been to able to picture it in my mind's eye how it happened while reading them. We're nearly at the end.
I'll add a disclaimer though if Henri is treated with kid gloves, I will definitely chuck a wobbly and have time out. :tantrum:

 

[Mr Fossil]

Hi all, JJ has contacted me and asked if I could let you know that Websleuths isn’t loading. If she’s not here, could someone please post the News24 live news feed for her. Thanks.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi all, JJ has contacted me and asked if I could let you know that Websleuths isn’t loading. If she’s not here, could someone please post the News24 live news feed for her. Thanks.

Hi Mr Fossil, thanks for letting us know, long time no see!

 

[sar2them1984]

I must say despite my earlier misgivings i do feel that Desai has upped his game and is relatively on the ball. Hes certainly asked some very pertinant questions as of late, has corrected Botha when he's tried to twist the truth of whats already been agreed as fact and generally seems to be aware of Bothas stalling tactics. I have high hopes!

I am frustrated with Desais stop/start tolerance of the trial but ot really does seem to be more down to the general nature of the SA justice system

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi Everyone :wave: Lets hope it's good news today!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee?lang=en

State and Defence will argue in relation to when Henri #vanbreda should testify. States wants him called first, defense says after experts.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

[video=youtube;Gp1rzCljD7A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp1rzCljD7A[/video]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/TammyPetersen87?lang=en

Adv Botha first up, submits there's good cause for Henri #VanBreda to testify after his witnesses. Says not certain he will take to stand.

Three expert and two lay witnesses expected to testify for #VanBreda defence. Adv Botha says State's evidence is circumstantial.


https://twitter.com/ajnarsee?lang=en

Botha:states evidence is circumstantial, first want to call experts to testify before deciding whether my client needs to testify

Botha now goes through what the law says in accused testifying

B: it's ironic that we are facing this decision, but I cannot deal with danger of witnesses hearing other witnesses

B: I can't as a fact say I am going to call my client

 

[JudgeJudi]

Hi everyone. I'm here, sort of. This is the first time I've been able to get onto the site all day. I'm using a different browser which is just hideous and I still have issues, but at least I can read and post. I'm about to see if I can post the live news feed.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Adv Botha first up, submits there's good cause for Henri Van Breda to testify after his witnesses. Says not certain he will take to stand.

Adv Botha says he can't for a fact say he will call Henri Van Breda. He says there is no direct evidence against his client.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-41-20170921-2

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi everyone. I'm here, sort of. This is the first time I've been able to get onto the site all day. I'm using a different browser which is just hideous and I still have issues, but at least I can read and post. I'm about to see if I can post the live news feed.

Glad you made it JJ, looks like Botha isn't sure HvB will take the stand!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Desai says that many others have been in this position. 50% of cases have to make the decision of whether client takes the stand or not

Judge Siraj Desai agrees there are no (eye) witnesses in Van Breda case. Adv Botha says he can't tailor his evidence due to plea explanation.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-41-20170921-2

 

[JudgeJudi]

Desai says that many others have been in this position. 50% of cases have to make the decision of whether client takes the stand or not

Judge Siraj Desai agrees there are no (eye) witnesses in Van Breda case. Adv Botha says he can't tailor his evidence due to plea explanation.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-41-20170921-2


But there was an excellent ear witness.

HvB is just totally gutless.