Bohemian
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South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4
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Bohemian
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Firstly let me say how grateful I am for all your hard work JJ. If I lived near you I'd bake you a cake. Sadly I don't, but please accept a virtual one
Mine wouldn't look like that, but that's what I'd aim for.
I have every confidence in Judge Desai. In the OP matter we had to second guess Masipa because she didn't open her mouth to question the evidence, so I assumed as I guess did most, that she was silently noting everything and would show us her brilliance in her judgement. Couldn't have been more wrong, as she read through her judgement my jaw wasn't on the floor it was hanging probably not far from where you live actually. I won't ever forget the horror of that moment. I don't feel it in this case. Just look at what Desai was saying to Butler (BBM above) and see where his mind is. Would it be there if he believed Henri's version? Would he have been thinking in terms of doubting HvB if he was content with his testimony?
We might think that a judge has to keep open all avenues of enquiry during this stage of the trial, but I truly believe he has shown persistent unease with the doctor's approach to the evidence relating to the 26th Jan 2015, and I believe therefore that he is looking for a credible way to factor in the epilepsy diagnosis and still legitimately dismiss it as far as the morning of the murder. He and his assessor have been giving off all the signals of really probing the value of the evidence. It would be easy for them, with this last witness, to sit back and say well that makes our job easy now, to justify an acquittal based on reasonable doubt, without going to the extra lengths they have done to try to fit this late revelation with an accused who has shown he is quite capable of outwitting the court, and is both dishonest and devious.
I think they have the measure of HvB!
Dr Butler was very annoying. He assumed he had all the answers now and really made some dangerous statements considering he was trying to have the court believe he was objective. I thought a doctor of his standing should be smarter than that. He was duped by this 'neglect' business and HvB saying he hadn't wet his pants before remembering that he had been told he had. HvB had just literally finished giving evidence at that stage and he knew full well that it was fact that he had wet his pants. Dr Butler couldn't be more wrong when he said that a malingerer would have drawn attention to that - he overlooked the fact that this malingerer wanted a diagnosis of amnesia! FGS!!!
There is just no way any specialist could say with the confidence he did, that HvB had a seizure that night based on the objective facts he had - wet shorts. That is why Desai said other experts would have been less confident. Butler should have left it as a mere possibility, dependent entirely upon HvB's honesty. Botha seemed to be saying that HvB could have had no inkling that he was epileptic on the Friday he was admitted to the ward, forgetting of course that his girlfriend's father had immediately contacted Dr Butler. Duh!
Anyway, I don't think we need worry - the case is in very capable hands.
BBM.
Exactly! *facepalm*
Interested Bystander
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Whilst I can see where you are coming from and I am sure Botha will try it on if he can find enough ammunition BUT Henri has a story to which he has fairly rigidly stuck of intruders and watching his father and brother being murdered. Whilst it is fairly obvious this is a total fabrication, unless he is going to say he in fact made the story up because he could not remember what happened, there isn't a chance in hell he will get manslaughter. He would have to admit to lying all through this very long case and then try to claim epileptic automatism. Epileptic automatism usually involves people of low intelligence which we know he is not. However, nothing would surprise me with Botha as his counsel. It cannot be proved he had a seizure before the murders so this route could be very risky. He has only claimed passing out on the stairs after the murders had been committed.
chinacat67
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Completely disagree. Seizure has nothing to do with murders, no timing can be inferred, no seizure can even.be inferred, nor are seizures a defense to murder, that I know of. I think the seizures are more distraction and Desai isn't buying what Botha is selling.
MOO
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Tortoise
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He can't claim he did it under say diminished responsibility if he is also claiming to have no memory of doing it.
Bohemian
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Especially when HvB has stated unequivocally that he didn’t commit the murders. Rather, he has consistently stated that one or more intruders did (with at least one being ‘black’ and ‘giggling’ and from whom he allegedly received physical injuries).
So what if he has an epilepsy? Ultimately, being physically disabled didn’t mitigate OP’s sentence and having an epilepsy isn’t going to mitigate HvB’s, if he is found guilty.
[video=youtube;tBSBDKzY64w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=76&v=tBSBDKzY64w[/video]
Hope this helps jafr22.
Just to say I'm still catching up but many thanks to everyone for all the information. I agree with some that epilepsy is just a distraction and that Desai is not influenced by it at all.
I do wonder whether HvB initially wanted to kill Rudi, his successful brother (in contrast to himself), and that his parents and Marli heard the noise and were killed when they became witnesses. I also feel that Jahn's message to Marli saying he felt like killing her parents is a very strange comment. They were all friends and 'loose' talk re killing the parents may have been bandied about between them to relieve tension due to the restrictions being imposed. HvB was clearly friends with Jahn who went to the initial Dr's appointment with him, when HvB was described as jovial. Just a few of my thoughts so far.
I do think the evidence supports HvB's guilt and he will be convicted of murder.
Have a good Christmas everyone and see you all next year.
Hope this helps jafr22.
Just to say I'm still catching up but many thanks to everyone for all the information. I agree with some that epilepsy is just a distraction and that Desai is not influenced by it at all.
I do wonder whether HvB initially wanted to kill Rudi, his successful brother (in contrast to himself), and that his parents and Marli heard the noise and were killed when they became witnesses. I also feel that Jahn's message to Marli saying he felt like killing her parents is a very strange comment. They were all friends and 'loose' talk re killing the parents may have been bandied about between them to relieve tension due to the restrictions being imposed. HvB was clearly friends with Jahn who went to the initial Dr's appointment with him, when HvB was described as jovial. Just a few of my thoughts so far.
I do think the evidence supports HvB's guilt and he will be convicted of murder.
Have a good Christmas everyone and see you all next year.
JudgeJudi
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I'll spent quite some time looking for it last night and I'll continue again tonight as I wanted to quote from the article. I was more than a little shocked at what the home owner said. HvB's family home was beautiful and was immaculately clean as was the Queensland home. For him to rent a house and let it become a pigsty says a lot to me.
Tortoise
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Can't say I've had any sleepless nights Hag, I think he's been seen right through. Galloway is a very fine prosecutor. I love the combination of her laid-back veneer and honing-in style, like a drill she has tackled all the scientific fluff of the defence. I got the feeling she may have had coaching for her cross-examination of Dr Butler, dealing with the ways of HvB specifically. If not, she doesn't miss a trick.
I'm looking forward to her closing argument.
Interested Bystander
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No, slept well, thank goodness. I agree with Tortoise, Galloway has done well and I think Desai had summed up the situation from the get-go. However, Botha always concerns me with his "trickery" and I am unsure that this case is "over" yet, although technically it should be.
The downside for me has been the very bad video quality. The number of times I have had to rerun parts of the trial is frustrating.
The downside for me has been the very bad video quality. The number of times I have had to rerun parts of the trial is frustrating.
JudgeJudi
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RSBM
Thank you so much Tortoise for that scrumptious looking cake. I love baking cakes and Id be more than proud if I created your offering. Its a generous size, so everyone please help yourself to a slice.
Like you, and no doubt millions around the world, I was just gobsmacked at Masipas culpable homicide verdict and the very cunning sentence of 5 years which meant that OP only had to serve months in prison. When the SCA overturned her verdict to one of murder and referred the matter back to her for resentencing and she increased the sentence by one year, my jaw fell to the ground probably Antarctica for me. The sheer arrogance and defiance she displayed to the SCA judges just floored me. Thank goodness shes retired now because shes an absolute disgrace to the SA judicial system which is trying hard to do the right thing.
I agree with all your comments about Desai. At one point I actually started a list of all the comments he made to the Defence, but the list was getting long and I was too busy with tweets and posts so I gave it away. While the State had an excellent set of witnesses, Ive never seen such woeful defence witnesses. The State had an excellent circumstantial case and by the time they closed, Desai had probably made up his mind. He still had to keep an open mind though so he needed to hear very compelling evidence in order to arrive at a different conclusion, and in my opinion he heard nothing of the sort.
First up was Dr Olckers, the DNA expert, who only had academic experience and never worked in a forensic laboratory yet challenged everything she could about the testimony of the States DNA expert, Sharlene Otto, who had 24 years experience. She was attacked by both Galloway and Desai who said, In any trial criminal or civil the court makes a decision on objective evidence given by expert witnesses. You are meant to assist the court in coming to a decision by giving your expert opinion even if it harms the defence.
The second witness, Dr Michael du Trevou, a neurosurgeon, based his findings in part on HvBs plea explanation. He never examined HvB but was asked to comment on his alleged memory loss. Galloway asked if a neurologist should in fact be testifying and Trevou agreed. When asked by Desai if it was possible that he did not lose consciousness given his minor injuries, Trevou said it was possible. He ruled out the HvBs loss of consciousness from shock and said this would only last a few minutes. The bruise on HvBs forehead may have been the cause of the concussion, rendering an injury to the brain, but Desai said it was hardly a bruise. Trevou said that a loss of consciousness with a duration of 2 hours 40 minutes would indicate a mild-to-moderate brain injury. The possibility of HvB fabricating that he passed out for two hours and 40 minutes cannot be ruled out. Losing consciousness for two hours 40 minutes, and recovering on ones own, was unlikely but that a post-traumatic amnesiac period was possible. He explained that among the causes of loss of consciousness were medical conditions, drug use, certain medications and alcohol use. Botha pointed out that HvBs blood had tested "clean" that night but HvB later said in his plea explanation that he had drinks the night before.
Third witness was a next door neighbour who heard nothing that night.
Fourth witness, Charl Rabie, was the owner of owner of Energized Fencing and worked at De Zalze about 12 years ago. He doesn't know the name of the system, didn't install or maintain it. He describes how it would be possible to bypass electric fencing.
Fifth witness is Jaco Pietersen, former security manager at De Zalze Estate for a year prior to 2014. He says people could access the estate via holes in the bottom of the fence surrounding the estate or by using access cards lent by residents to others. He said security was poor while he was there (but he didnt arrange for it to be fixed). Security was upgraded after he left his job.
Sixth witness, HvB who lied and lied and lied.
Seventh witness, Butler, the neurologist who for 3 days treated the Court to the most boring lecture on epilepsy and every kind of seizure known to man and endeavoured to produce an excuse for everything HvB did. And then at the very end of his evidence declared that it was possible HvB committed the murders and then had a seizure. This doctor was on a huge ego trip and an exercise in self-promotion. He was called following questioning from Galloway and Desai about his failure to come to the aid of his family.
I'm feeling confident.
Firstly let me say how grateful I am for all your hard work JJ. If I lived near you I'd bake you a cake. Sadly I don't, but please accept a virtual one
Mine wouldn't look like that, but that's what I'd aim for.
I have every confidence in Judge Desai. In the OP matter we had to second guess Masipa because she didn't open her mouth to question the evidence, so I assumed as I guess did most, that she was silently noting everything and would show us her brilliance in her judgement. Couldn't have been more wrong, as she read through her judgement my jaw wasn't on the floor it was hanging probably not far from where you live actually. I won't ever forget the horror of that moment. I don't feel it in this case. Just look at what Desai was saying to Butler (BBM above) and see where his mind is. Would it be there if he believed Henri's version? Would he have been thinking in terms of doubting HvB if he was content with his testimony?
Anyway, I don't think we need worry - the case is in very capable hands.
Thank you so much Tortoise for that scrumptious looking cake. I love baking cakes and Id be more than proud if I created your offering. Its a generous size, so everyone please help yourself to a slice.
Like you, and no doubt millions around the world, I was just gobsmacked at Masipas culpable homicide verdict and the very cunning sentence of 5 years which meant that OP only had to serve months in prison. When the SCA overturned her verdict to one of murder and referred the matter back to her for resentencing and she increased the sentence by one year, my jaw fell to the ground probably Antarctica for me. The sheer arrogance and defiance she displayed to the SCA judges just floored me. Thank goodness shes retired now because shes an absolute disgrace to the SA judicial system which is trying hard to do the right thing.
I agree with all your comments about Desai. At one point I actually started a list of all the comments he made to the Defence, but the list was getting long and I was too busy with tweets and posts so I gave it away. While the State had an excellent set of witnesses, Ive never seen such woeful defence witnesses. The State had an excellent circumstantial case and by the time they closed, Desai had probably made up his mind. He still had to keep an open mind though so he needed to hear very compelling evidence in order to arrive at a different conclusion, and in my opinion he heard nothing of the sort.
First up was Dr Olckers, the DNA expert, who only had academic experience and never worked in a forensic laboratory yet challenged everything she could about the testimony of the States DNA expert, Sharlene Otto, who had 24 years experience. She was attacked by both Galloway and Desai who said, In any trial criminal or civil the court makes a decision on objective evidence given by expert witnesses. You are meant to assist the court in coming to a decision by giving your expert opinion even if it harms the defence.
The second witness, Dr Michael du Trevou, a neurosurgeon, based his findings in part on HvBs plea explanation. He never examined HvB but was asked to comment on his alleged memory loss. Galloway asked if a neurologist should in fact be testifying and Trevou agreed. When asked by Desai if it was possible that he did not lose consciousness given his minor injuries, Trevou said it was possible. He ruled out the HvBs loss of consciousness from shock and said this would only last a few minutes. The bruise on HvBs forehead may have been the cause of the concussion, rendering an injury to the brain, but Desai said it was hardly a bruise. Trevou said that a loss of consciousness with a duration of 2 hours 40 minutes would indicate a mild-to-moderate brain injury. The possibility of HvB fabricating that he passed out for two hours and 40 minutes cannot be ruled out. Losing consciousness for two hours 40 minutes, and recovering on ones own, was unlikely but that a post-traumatic amnesiac period was possible. He explained that among the causes of loss of consciousness were medical conditions, drug use, certain medications and alcohol use. Botha pointed out that HvBs blood had tested "clean" that night but HvB later said in his plea explanation that he had drinks the night before.
Third witness was a next door neighbour who heard nothing that night.
Fourth witness, Charl Rabie, was the owner of owner of Energized Fencing and worked at De Zalze about 12 years ago. He doesn't know the name of the system, didn't install or maintain it. He describes how it would be possible to bypass electric fencing.
Fifth witness is Jaco Pietersen, former security manager at De Zalze Estate for a year prior to 2014. He says people could access the estate via holes in the bottom of the fence surrounding the estate or by using access cards lent by residents to others. He said security was poor while he was there (but he didnt arrange for it to be fixed). Security was upgraded after he left his job.
Sixth witness, HvB who lied and lied and lied.
Seventh witness, Butler, the neurologist who for 3 days treated the Court to the most boring lecture on epilepsy and every kind of seizure known to man and endeavoured to produce an excuse for everything HvB did. And then at the very end of his evidence declared that it was possible HvB committed the murders and then had a seizure. This doctor was on a huge ego trip and an exercise in self-promotion. He was called following questioning from Galloway and Desai about his failure to come to the aid of his family.
I'm feeling confident.
I think Botha calling Butler as an expert did little more than provide uncertainty about HvB's epilepsy through the contradictions that were created in his evidence. The long drawn out, mind numbing evidence gave indications that apart from a possible 'seizure', HvB was, and remains, of 'sound mind'. No other evidence in the home was heard to intrude upon, or overlap the detailed analysis of HvB's presence and possible seizure, just 2 hrs 40 mins of nothing at all. This to me this emphasised and exposed HvB as the perpetrator of this heinous crime against his own family.
Interested Bystander
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There is a minor problem in that HvB's family has written a book (as yet unpublished) in which there is information that HvB's mother said that he suffered petit mal seizures and consequential stuttering as a child. Stuttering does happen with petit mal. However, I don't think he stutters as much as Botha does! Botha may use this to argue that HvB has a prior history of seizures but surely there must be medical history to this if it is the case. The mother is unlikely to have diagnosed this herself. This may explain his missing 2hrs 40 minutes BUT that doesn't explain the murders and the alibi.
I have a really uncomfortable feeling that Botha will spend the recess working on changing the plea.
https://www.iol.co.za/weekend-argus/family-was-aware-of-van-bredas-seizures-12060654
I have a really uncomfortable feeling that Botha will spend the recess working on changing the plea.
https://www.iol.co.za/weekend-argus/family-was-aware-of-van-bredas-seizures-12060654
Interested Bystander
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Is this what you were looking for JJ.
https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/weekend-argus-saturday-edition/20170325/281608125261791
JudgeJudi
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You're an absolute gem IB. I've spent hours searching for my post without success.
The disgusting state of the home where HvB and Danielle were living:
Their guest house routine is stock standard for the couple. They rise late and spend the day in each other’s pockets, says a reliable source, seldom socialising with friends or family, and rarely getting out much.
“They were possibly our most filthy disgusting guests we’ve ever had,” said the Kommetjie landlord. “I don’t think they ever washed a thing in the room. It looked like they were eating off dirty plates. Normally, we’d send the housekeeper in to clean up but I couldn’t subject her to that mess. I thought it was possible they had been evicted from their previous place. We had to give the place a really good spring clean after they left”.
The Big Bay landlord was as unequivocal. “I’m so glad they were out of here. They were filthy pigs. The place was like a pig sty. It was filthy. Rubbish that you and I would throw in a bin was all over the floor and there was leftover food all over the place”.
This is not unusual for people who are heavily into drugs.
JudgeJudi
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And while I'm on the subject of drugs I found this, and it's by far the most comprehensive article I've read:
A man believed to be Henri Van Bredas drug runner said the 20-year old student was a regular customer for tik and marijuana, according to the Sunday Times. The paper reported police believe Henri was addicted to drugs and would turn to the courts to obtain his medical records.
The Sunday Times has now revealed it tracked down Henris drug runner, Mark, who lives in an informal settlement across the road from the estate.
He started coming here a couple of months ago, sometimes by himself, and sometimes with a friend. They drove a motorbike, he told the paper.
He would give me between R40 and R200 at a time. Then I would go and get his drugs from the dealer. He bought tik, and from another dealer in Jamestown he bought dagga.
Mark told the paper he hadnt seen Henri for the past three weeks.
Although police have not taken a statement from Mark, it is not necessary if Henris medical records will be subpoenaed.
Van Breda family spokesperson Ben Rootman, meanwhile, refused to comment on Henris alleged tik addiction.
[URL]http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/2015/02/16/stellenbosch-murders-police-investigating-henris-alleged-drug-use/[/URL]
I find the last sentence very surprising because normally the family spokesperson would immediately refute such a claim.
A man believed to be Henri Van Bredas drug runner said the 20-year old student was a regular customer for tik and marijuana, according to the Sunday Times. The paper reported police believe Henri was addicted to drugs and would turn to the courts to obtain his medical records.
The Sunday Times has now revealed it tracked down Henris drug runner, Mark, who lives in an informal settlement across the road from the estate.
He started coming here a couple of months ago, sometimes by himself, and sometimes with a friend. They drove a motorbike, he told the paper.
He would give me between R40 and R200 at a time. Then I would go and get his drugs from the dealer. He bought tik, and from another dealer in Jamestown he bought dagga.
Mark told the paper he hadnt seen Henri for the past three weeks.
Although police have not taken a statement from Mark, it is not necessary if Henris medical records will be subpoenaed.
Van Breda family spokesperson Ben Rootman, meanwhile, refused to comment on Henris alleged tik addiction.
[URL]http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/2015/02/16/stellenbosch-murders-police-investigating-henris-alleged-drug-use/[/URL]
I find the last sentence very surprising because normally the family spokesperson would immediately refute such a claim.
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