South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4

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JudgeJudi said:
My husband is a very caring soul and is trying to make life easier for me with my current situation. Because walking up and down the stairs is difficult, he's not only cooking dinner for me but asks me each night, "What time does your trial start?" and brings my dinner upstairs 15 minutes beforehand and also for our little doggie who is always by my side.

As an aside, he detests trials but knows the entire back story of those I'm following and all major developments.

:blowkiss: to all our long suffering partners who have to put up with us
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What a wonderful husband you have. I’m fortunate as well in that regard and mine also is not interested in the trials, but is well versed in many facts about them thanks to me! PS: I do hope you are soon relieved of your pain with your upcoming surgery.
 
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This is the best I could rustle up in the time available. I miss Prime's delicacies.
 

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It's just the 2 of us again L2L. You can't blame anyone from walking away from this dreadful trial.
 
JudgeJudi said:
It's just the 2 of us again L2L. You can't blame anyone from walking away from this dreadful trial.
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I Know! But compelled to see it through & HvB to get his long sentence.
 
Dr Butler elaborating on yesterday's point of the dark rings under Henri's eyes in the ambulance photograph, saying there is no scientific study which links this and fatigue.

Butler: I see patients weekly who suffer from seizures and then amnesia

https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc
 
Butler: Being scientifically curious, I looked at periods of amnesia in forensic literature related to homicide, found an instance where amnesia "straddled" the homicide itself

Butler: I was struck by how common it is for people to have subsequent amnesia in homicide cases

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

As it happens, drug abuse also causes dark rings under eyes effect.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]


Butler says he has found no precedent for malingering in the period after a homicide. Usually for the actual homicide act.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
 
[video=youtube;ZcgbjcFi5r0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcgbjcFi5r0[/video]
 
Butler says he has found no precedent for malingering in the period after a homicide. Usually for the actual homicide act.

Adv Galloway says accused does not have to not remember the murders as he has an explanation for that. But he can't explain the 2h40. Butler says what preceded onset of amnesia is beyond his sphere of competence.

Dr Van Zyl testified when she saw #VanBreda 2 years ago when he came of his own volition, he was confident, not emotional, conversing casually, etc. In contrast, he was emotional with his family. When he returned to Dr Van Zyl with police 2/3 hours later, withdrawn, monosyllabic.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]

Galloway: Henri still does not have an explanation for 2h40m time loss

Both teams bringing the witness up to speed about Henri's whereabouts on the day after the attacks, and his apparent demeanour

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

Botha seems to not be listening again this morning. Objects to what he thinks is Galloway phrasing that Henri was emotional on defense version, but state witnesses found him not emotional, relaxed, jovial.

He's described by family, by defense and by Henri himself as "very emotional", but we've never seen Henri very emotional in court.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
 
Galloway: Would the accused be able to injure oneself intentionally in a postictal state? Butler: It would be a lot more probable to occur in a pre-postictal state.

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

Galloway scores a strong point here. Would it be more likely that the accused could self-inflict superficial wounds before or after seizure? Doctor admits before seizure is more likely.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]


Possibility that #VanBreda acts in a certain manner depending on where he finds himself? Dr Butler says behaviour is context-dependent. How he behaves in court may be different to how he acts outside of it.

Galloway asks about #VanBreda's injuries possibly being self-inflicted. Could he do that in a postictal state? More likely in a pre-ictal phase, when brain is working well.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
 
Oh dear. He has now brought up something I thought could happen. He has seeded the idea that amnesia can straddle homicide. Botha will love that. However HVB says he has a clear memory of an intruder committing the murder. I hope we don't hear that murderers suffering from epilepsy have a vivid dreamlike recollection of somebody else committing the murder.
 
Galloway: Given that there is evidence that H's wounds were self-inflicted, its probable that they occurred after the murders. Butler: I would say that's correct

Galloway: The thought process of this implies an element of deception, and then execution of the plan follows. Botha objects, the court hasn't made this finding yet of self-inflicted injuries.

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

Butler says the average length of grand mal [tonic-clonic] seizures is 1-3 minutes.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Average length of tonic-clonic seizure is 1-3 minutes, Butler says.

It is more probable that self-inflicted injuries would occur after the murders, but before the seizure? Butler agrees.

Actual action of self-harm, there would be thought process involved, element of deception?
B: Depends on how quick thinking you are on your feet.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
 
Both teams debating about H's plea explanation and the his 2h40m blackout and what previous evidence has shown. Desai remarks that Butler is the only witness who has shed sufficient light on this

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

Henri shifting uncomfortably on his hard wooden seat.

Botha a jack in the box now. Galloway states that Henri first stated he fainted, now his 2 h 40 absence is due to seizure. Not sure what Botha's point is.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Galloway says before epilepsy diagnosis, accused had an explanation that possible he had quite a severe fall on the stairs. Now his explanation is he may have had an epileptic seizure.

Botha objects, says that is not what #VanBreda testified. He said he didn't know.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
 
JudgeJudi said:
The day before yesterday Dr Butler said it is very rare to see people malingering in private practice, more common in public hospitals where people want to benefit from social grants. Researched malingering and amnesia, literature doesn't indicate it being used post event.

Really!!!!! HvB isn’t after a social grants, he’s trying to escape a life sentence. That’s an extremely powerful reason to be a malingerer. The timing of this alleged seizure is just so unbelievable. Is it possible, yes, but is it probable ... not to me.

As far as wetting his pants goes, who's to say when this happened. When he saw the butchered bodies of his family, that alone could have caused him to wet himself. The photos of him in the ambulance didn't show any dark areas on his shorts. Perhaps by that time they were merely damp.
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BBM.

I wonder if HvB has a history of urinary incontinence/nocturnal enuresis?
 
Butler: I can't tell how long the seizure was, or how long the postictal state was.

Desai: That itself is an assumption, that there was a seizure. Butler: Yes.

Again and again Butler highlights the mismatch between typical malingerers in epileptics, and Henri not drawing attention to his condition. But intentionally concealing a condition is also malingering.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Galloway: Was it possible for H to have had a seizure shortly before making the emergency call at 07:12? Butler: His state at the time suggests a severe postictal state, didn't have a short seizure and recovered quickly

Galloway: You cannot say how long seizure and postictal state was. Butler: Correct

Desai: The fact that H wet his pants is of inconsequential detail. Butler: I stand by my word that it is of profound significance.

Butler: I had to disregard my initial biases because the evidence was so overwhelming

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
 
Possible he had seizure before making emergency call at 07:12? Severity (that he wet himself and wasn't aware and also forehead injury) shows more severe postictal delirium. Common cause that severity was much greater, doubt he had a short seizure and recovered quickly.

That's assuming he had a seizure, Judge Desai points out.

You can't with scientific certainty say how long seizure lasted, but you can infer it, Galloway says. Butler agrees. Fact he was incontinent and neglect shows severe dysfunction in the brain.

Judge Desai says #VanBreda's parents were murdered. Wet pants a minor consequence, inconsequential detail.

Butler says he would argue opposite. Incontinence is of profound significance. "I stand by that."

Accept #VanBreda diagnosed with epilepsy. He now has explanation for 2h40, Galloway says.

Butler says in coming to his diagnosis, not only based on incontinence. Neglect, amnesia, etc. Evidence so overwhelming that he was forced to come to this conclusion, despite his own bias.

VanBreda had studied police docket before trial started in April. Part of docket is findings of blood spatter expert. Capt Joubert reported on urine on pants and testified on wet pants. He hadn't forgotten about the stains, he was well aware of the evidence, Galloway says.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
 
Galloway refers to her "5 minute internet knowledge" and addresses bladder and kidney function, saying you cannot urinate randomly. Butler corrects this by saying its governed by the autonomic system

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

Butler: "One doesn't sum [add] probabilities, one multiplies probabilities...it's the multiplicity of probabilities which I have enumerated..." Maybe in medicine, not sure about law. Not necessarily not true, but not quite the same.

Butler: The study of epilepsy requires considerable psychiatric skills...frequently involves psychotic patients...

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Dr Joubert says a malingerer would draw attention to it. No evidence that in 2years, 9months #VanBreda had drawn attention to this.

VanBreda has depression and anxiety and is receiving treatment, Dr Butler says.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
 
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