Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, Nov 2020 #7

[BoraBora]

I was thinking of line B because of the actual path that goes up and because it seems to reach the ridge at the requisite 100m horizontal distance from the path below. Google Earth seems to show that path going through a tight gap between outcrops and emerging onto grass again as it reaches to the ridge (not that I have too much confidence in Google's rendering). Another reason is that the drop is pretty sheer at that point (see first pic attached, which shows your line B and the point at which it comes out on the ridge (circled) which is my original point X.

I can't see any sign of a path at your line A but it looks perfectly possible to get up to that little gap on the horizon. I didn't really consider that spot though because the drop on the French side doesn't look quite so perilous at that point (see second pic) and it would also seem to be clearly visible from the Port.

Thanks for coming back Federico, and these new images are fantastic, especially the first one. You can clearly see the sheer scale of that path and it's fierce. I cannot get my head around what she was doing going up that, especially now I've seen how steep it is in that picture. I guess we will never know.

 

[Hope4More]

While a simple accident is still the most likely theory, the surprising location she was found in does raise some eyebrows. Frankly, I cannot see how anyone can say that suicide is unlikely, but maybe it is just the occupational bias in my case.

I see several factors in this case that make the hypothesis of suicide more likely than in a random case: in the days leading up to this she was reaching out to strangers with her life problems, history of depression, probable big life changes coming up, being a kind and sensitive person, being somewhat of a perfectionist, possible history of eating disorder, returning to an area she loved, saying that she will be out of touch for a while and being vague about her plans, stuff in her personal IG history like last 3 mentioning death and last 7 not having a human on them etc. No, relatives are not usually the first to notice and people with concealed depression might be even more likely to commit suicide than people with MDD. And even in any random case without any red flags suicide should not really be ruled out "just because".

11 Habits of People With Concealed Depression &
The 10 Core Traits of Perfectly Hidden Depression

With that being said, accident is my 1st pick, and I hope the phone history & autopsy & exact locations might confirm one possibility over the other. I' currently have a hard time to understand how and why she ended up at the location she fell from.

Choosing your post to respond to, mostly because you cover so much territory, so it's a one & done. Working backwards, kinda.

1. I'm very unconvinced her phone records, if ever made public, will resolve much of anything, unless perhaps via GPS, the route (s) she took.

Consider. Let's say she took tons of photos. What would that mean? That she was happily exploring? Or that she was documenting her last steps before she threw herself off a cliff? Or, she didn't take many if any photos at all. What would that mean? That she didn't bother because she was so thoroughly & contentedly in the present as she adventured? Or because she had chosen a challenging route & was intent upon it? Or, because she felt liberated & felt no need to document everything for Dan? Or, because she was so absorbed thinking about what came next, which was her plan to throw herself off a cliff?

2. One objective truth photos could help reveal is the route (s) she took. But the factual again ends there. Leaving aside your specific list of reasons why you wouldn't summarily reject the possibility of suicide (I wouldn't/didn't either, but for me context is always everything). And more as a response in general to posts related to the possibility of suicide.

Again leaving aside other various bits of context, what seems to be a common denominator is questioning why ED ended up off what's perceived to be a beaten path & higher up & in a place many seem to believe was a risky (fill in synonym blank) place to go.

The *factual* basis for that question I see is it's based on what Dan said about ED. That she was adventurous, but didn't take unnecessary risks. That she didn't go off the beaten path if there was a beaten path to be had.

But that assumes Dan knew ED well enough to know perfectly & inevitably what choices she made & how she adventured when she was alone. I don't assume he had that knowledge, other than in a most general way.

Maybe because I don't, as an isolated factor I don't find it mysterious or of concern, or an indication she was unhappy much less suicidal, that she fell from an off the beaten path, higher up than expected place, the exact location apparently still tbd.

From there to what can only be speculation. Nothing wrong with that, it's one of my favorite hobbies, but it ain't the same as facts.

Yes, it is factually accurate that a loved one can be the last to know. It's also true it is simply impossible for anyone outside another's relationship to * know* what's going on within it, much less peeps who never met either of them. Speculating, then, I don't think Dan would be in the category of last to know. Unlike most of us, I imagine, Dan & Esther were largely very much together 24/7 for years, often in a very very small space. Each knew the other had been diagnosed with clinical depression at some point. Both spoke openly about their feelings, including on SM.

If anything, one impression I get from their last known communications is that Dan may not have always given her enough space.

Nov 21. 1:11pm. ED to Dan: "Love you so much. *advertiser censored*. thank you for encouraging me & giving me this confidence."

Next day, at 3:31, ED to Dan. "Can't wait to read all your messages. thank you. *advertiser censored*....."

She's chosen to go off by herself, and she's been in recent touch. Why flood her with messages? But....as with anything speculative, that take is wildly subjective.

The actual facts are that she was regularly in touch with Dan. She told him her plans. She told him she loved him, and that she was having a good time.

She did caution him about possibly bad cell reception. Dan doesn't question why she did that. But, it is in the speculative range of possibilities that it didn't occur to Dan or he didn't want to say to the public that perhaps ED had decided she really did need some all alone time. Or, who knows, that she was considering going off the beaten path & higher up than he would approve of & she didn't want to hear his thoughts about it. Or she wanted to surprise him with her accomplishment after the fact. So, so thoroughly back in the area of speculation.

As this is painfully too long already, to skip to an end. I haven't see those references to death on her SM. There isn't any evidence she had an eating disorder, and there are *plenty* of health oriented peeps who don't that are extremely hard core & diligent about their eating habits. She *seemed* to be making a major life choice, which sure, can be stressful, but even if that, stress doesn't even equate to unhappiness, much less anything more dire.

Long story long as humanly possible. It's not from rejecting suicide out of hand or "just because" that I have, but because I don't believe there's evidence to support that theory, and again, neither apparently does anyone closest to her or the investigators themselves. Absent that evidence somehow showing up in an investigators' report, even if their conclusion is otherwise, accident it is IMO. (And BTW, having been on WS for many years & alive for decades longer that that, I'm plenty aware peeps come to their own conclusions in their ways for their own reasons.

 

[pineapple23]

I've found myself bouncing from theory to theory listening to all the well argued expertise on here. But one of the factors that drew me to the suicide one was the claim that Esther told someone that she and Dan were on a break. Missing British hiker was 'taking a break' from boyfriend, witness tells police in Spain - Olive Press News Spain
Dan has denied it - maybe he didn't want to acknowledge it, maybe he didn't know what was going on in her mind Possibly that last trip on her own was to get space to try to think things through.
You can feel the need to split from someone but still care for them. Add to that all the other factors affecting their future way of life and I can see how she might have arrived at an impasse - not knowing how to go forward and not wanting to hurt anyone. From their social media and messages from those who knew her, she comes across as a sensitive soul.
That's all. I still veer towards 'accident'. It's just that initially I ruled out suicide but now, seeing where she ended up, I wouldn't discount it.

 

[RickshawFan]

I think you are right about where she went over. It may have been a totally spontaneous thing. She saw the track to the ridge line and wanted to see the view from there, or see if she might go up the ridge. Danger would appear low from the side she was on.

I don't think she fell from further up the ridge or anywhere close to the peak

The track up the PicdelaG ascends on the cliff (north/France) side from the Port de la G. It would not be possible to avoid seeing the plunging cliff with the massive scree slope below. Not only would you see it, it would be right at your feet.
Description (in Spanish) of the ascent location:
El Pico de la Glera tiene una subida fácil a partir del Puerto de la Glera mediante una rampa escalonada en la cara norte que te deposita prácticamente en la cima. En verano es una pedriza metamórfica pero en invierno es una pala de nieve que se sube a punta de crampón.
Source: Montesymasdebucuesa: 42-14. PICO DE LA GLERA POR LA ARISTA SUDOESTE. 6-6-14.

 

[RickshawFan]

Is the general consensus that she fell from either of these points on Pic de la Glere (see attached screenshots).

The first SS, the red pin demarks the point (where the words Pic de la Glere are written). This is the point high up the pic where some thought she may have taken an incorrect path.

The second SS, where the red pin is. This is the lower path that FredericoA pointed out.

I know we will never know for sure, I'm just trying to work out roughly where she might have fallen from as the DM maps don't seem to be correct.

The second.
There's no good approach to the first. It would require cross country travel and it's not a common thing. Here are 3 people who went that way. Note, they traveled on snow, which is waaaaaay easier on foot. They also are VERY experienced. They evidently do this kind of thing all the time. So, no, minuscule chance ED went from the southeast.
Montesymasdebucuesa: 42-14. PICO DE LA GLERA POR LA ARISTA SUDOESTE. 6-6-14.

 

[Federico_A]

The only other point I was wondering about is closer to the peak and that little shelf under it. It would be hard to see a body in that area from the Port as it would be blocked by the shelf itself. And because of the curve around it would be hard to see from the opposite side too. That would be in line with her actually trying to climb the pic, which is what I think she may have done since she also climbed the previous peak the day before and took a selfie which she sent to Dan.

Agree that the higher she went, the more perilous it would be and the more chance of her not being found. But also higher=less accessible and that's what puts me off.
Google Earth makes that whole ridge look easy (my point X is by the 'E' of 'Espana' in that picture by the way) but Pic de la Glere is really nothing but horrible jagged rock against the skyline. As super-fit as she no doubt was, I still can't believe she would go higher on her own.

 

[RickshawFan]

IIRC the dossier stated she had plenty of back up to recharge her phone so I doubt this would have been an issue.

On an outing like this, it might very well have been an issue because rechargeables drain quickly when temps are below freezing, exactly the recorded scenario for that time frame in that location. You have to kinda know to keep your phone, your headlamp, and the recharging battery next to your body.
However, IMO the relative battery strength of ED's technology was unlikely to be a #1 factor. IMO, at least at the end point, ED wasn't interested in being much in touch. She had spent at least one night at the Cabane de Besurtas (IMO 2), the dossier mentions that she wan't caught up on all DC's texts (we actually don't know what these said, only what ED's said), and she didn't seem to know or be invested in whether she was going to have cell service for the next few days.
This is a red flag for me because it doesn't comport with the picture of ED that she was always in touch and letting people know where she was.

 

[RickshawFan]

I can't see any location on the trail that would fit the facts as we know them. The body was found above the Port de la Glère but below the summit. She fell 20-30m down a rock face, to a point in France, in a crevice, beneath a rocky pinnacle, where her body was hidden from the trail and from the air. There are only a couple of points I can see that seem to fit all those criteria.

We are assuming while alive, ED fell to the ledge where she was found. But the ledge may have figured post mortem, rather than pre-. The remains and gear may well have been invisible during the early winter and late spring searches; no surprise at all that they weren't possible to see (this is very common). Like the skull that rolled down to the trail, the remains and gear might have rolled down (released by ice?) from a greater height and thus become only recently visible.

 

[Federico_A]

I see suicide is still being considered. In the circumstances, unless there is information we don't know, suicide doesn't seem psychologically plausible to me. Reasoning as follows:
I hear she experienced some depression in the past - but who hasn't?
And what was her problem, really? Seems she had a splendid, privileged life by any measure, and the trip, by all accounts, was going well.
While it sounds like she set off on the trip after a row, that was surely all made up by the time she was at Sauvegarde as those messages are lovey-dovey.
In any case, it seems she was the one who wanted to separate - she wasn't ditched - so why get suicidal about it? I doubt anyone would kill themselves out of guilt.
Climbing up to an obscure spot and leaping off just sounds too demonstrative (even for me, and I've considered it often enough) - even more so for a woman. Suicide-by-mountain-leap in any case is surely rare.
A spontaneous and irrational despair? Again, I don't believe it. If anyone was prone to suicide due to sudden mood swings they wouldn't have made it through adolescence. I believe that nature has equipped us with some resilience.
She was found next to her pack which would either mean she jumped with it on or threw it down first. Neither sounds credible to me.

All in all, an accident on that ragged ridge seems infinitely more likely.

 

[RickshawFan]

I'm a bit surprised she would climb up a via ferrata while holding her sticks like that. I personally wouldn't do that, and I'd likely have put my hiking sticks away before doing a section like that where one of your hands is now tied up. That's another reason it helps to hike with someone - I usually just fold up my sticks and ask my friend to secure them to the strap on the outside of my pack for sections like that, which saves me from having to take off my bag.

Possibly something else that may have contributed to a fall is her hanging onto her sticks all the time like that. If she was reaching for her phone or something with one hand and holding her sticks with another hand, it doesn't give you much hope of grabbing anything to stop a fall.

Yowza! I'd never seen that video before.
I agree that video looks really awkward. I guess I assumed ED would do more of a quick, fit, scramble. Part of the problem seems to be that the pack is too long for her body, so it sits low on the hips. This interferes with the butt muscles and the groin area, and impedes lifting your legs. This is exactly the kind of place where that really matters*
Like you, @tennyson77 , I would have stowed my poles on my pack before heading up a slope like that. The pack ED is wearing has loops for that express purpose.
Besides, poles are quite useless when the trail is that steep, and they slide around on the rocks (unless you have rubber tips, which are unlikely here, because they'd be useless on other trails). As you suggest, carrying poles encumbers one hand, leaving only one to grab either the wire or the rock.
You also don't want to lose them down a slope: those are expensive critters. On the other hand, you don't want to hook them to your hand in this situation 'cos they could hang up on something and pull you off the trail.
As a thruhiker, I don't—nor have I ever seen—long-term thru hikers carry their poles like that at all. When they're not being used, they are balanced in one hand, lightly, not gripped, usually at a slight criss-cross. It's hard to explain, but thru hikers seem to hold them that way naturally.

*Note: we used to fit packs like ED has hers. 25 years ago or so. Since then, pack belts (their purpose is to carry the weight of the pack) have been designed to fit exactly where women like to plonk toddlers on their hips. They do this instinctively. That's where they carry weight. That's where the pack belt goes. Where you instinctively carry weight. Get a sack of potatoes, put it on the floor, lift it, and place it on you. You're not carrying that "baby" where your leg meets your torso, correct? You can march like a soldier, knees lifted high?
Sorry, guys, I haven't dreamed up a similar clue, but the pack belt buckle goes more or less in front of your belly button.

Safety tip: stow your poles before you scramble. While I'm at it, be sure you get a professional pack fit, and that the pack is proportional to your body.

 

[tennyson77]

Yowza! I'd never seen that video before.
I agree that video looks really awkward. I guess I assumed ED would do more of a quick, fit, scramble.
Like you, @tennyson77 , I would have stowed my poles on my pack before heading up a slope like that. The pack ED is wearing has loops for that express purpose. Besides, poles are quite useless when the trail is that steep, and they slide around on the rocks (unless you have rubber tips, which are unlikely here, because they'd be useless on other trails). As you suggest, carrying poles encumbers one hand, leaving only one to grab either the wire or the rock.
You also don't want to lose them down a slope: those are expensive critters. On the other hand, you don't want to hook them to your hand in this situation 'cos they could hang up on something and pull you off the trail.
As a thruhiker, I don't—nor have I ever seen—long-term thru hikers carry their poles like that at all. When they're not being used, they are balanced in one hand, usually at a slight criss-cross. It's hard to explain, but thru hikers seem to hold them that way naturally.

Tip: stow your poles before you scramble.

I have done about 1500km of long distance multi-day hikes. If I was on a flat stretch and simply enjoying myself, I may hold my sticks like she did for a while and enjoy the walk or the sun for a bit. Often I’d collapse them first though. But the moment the sticks become a liability more than an asset - scrambling up a face, slippery surfaces, etc, they go immediately in the pack and let me concentrate and have two hands available. Hikers are always hesitant I feel to take their bag off once they have it comfortable, which is probably why I think she was using a water system (camel back), and also likely why she didn’t take her bag off and stow her sticks in that video. That said, I usually ask my friend to stow them for me so I don’t have to remove my bag - I’m surprised Dan didn’t do that for her.

I recently did a 100m climb up a nearly vertical via ferrata in the Dolomites, and the very first thing I did at the bottom was stow my sticks so they were out of the way. Maybe it was just a one off in that video, but if that was normal for her it’s definitely not a safe habit. The general rule of thumb for going up something like that is to always have three points of contact established while you are moving to the next spot - In most of that video she isn’t doing that since her right hand is unavailable due to the sticks.

 

[RickshawFan]

The fact she had a mat with her, for me, implies she was a spiritual person who may have wanted to honor her last trip alone on her month long sojurn...before meeting up with her partner. It seems she may have used this 30 day alone trip to assist with coming to terms with "x". I would never assume anything about her state of mind. Only her partner would know in his heart the likely train of thoughts in her mind at that moment in time.

Do we actually know that the mat was unrolled and inflated? Those things pack up tiny and usually go in a tight stuff sack. They always go IN the pack (they'd get destroyed in no time on the outside of the pack). Plus, they take quite a bit of puff to get them filled and comfy. Memories: I did this every night for 6 months.

 

[RickshawFan]

I have an opposite reaction. She seemed confident to me, not hesitant at all. And the fact she could & did scramble up rocks without pausing, and didn't just stick to well travelled paths, IMO supports the likelihood she didn't consider the adventuring she was doing that day especially remarkable, much less reckless.

That's actually a very well-traveled path, so much so, that a wire has been rigged by authorities to minimize accidents. Placing a wire like this is quite technical (so it doesn't pop out), and would require authorization, because you can't just be defacing property by driving anchors into a rock. It's a well-thought-out safety device.

 

[RickshawFan]

It may not have been that slippery until it either started getting dark or she started getting into shadowy areas near the pic or the french side that are colder. She was mostly walking in the Spanish side up until then, which is warmer and sunnier.

It was below freezing at night on those days. Either from dew, mist, or "rock sweat" or whatever, that rocky ascent was going to be very slick. This should have been obvious in a few steps.

 

[RickshawFan]

I agree, sometimes partners are the last to know.

Regarding the shoes, surely if they were so worn for her to slip to her death, she would have noticed long before she got to that treacherous area and put on her crampons - it's not like she'd been walking on a smooth paved path prior to that.

Part of the problem.... she really needed to be in taller, stiffer, boots with lug soles (e.g. Vibram). She didn't have crampons (the super poky things), but these are really used for glacier travel or ice. Hard pack. LE mentioned microspikes* (which per the dossier, she seems to have owned). In the US, we'd use microspikes only on ice or hard-packed snow, often on trails that have been traveled and stamped down. If the points don't sink into ice/snow, you're standing on points. This would definitely throw off your center of gravity. Maybe they use them in France/Spain on scree. Definitely not in the US.
The boots I mentioned are de rigueur, though, and they'd be easy to buy. Many are made in Italy.

*Kahtoola makes the best microspikes IMO. They don't break easily. Spendy critters.

 

[RickshawFan]

The only other point I was wondering about is closer to the peak and that little shelf under it. It would be hard to see a body in that area from the Port as it would be blocked by the shelf itself. And because of the curve around it would be hard to see from the opposite side too. That would be in line with her actually trying to climb the pic, which is what I think she may have done since she also climbed the previous peak the day before and took a selfie which she sent to Dan.

IMO the spot pretty much must have been between the Port and the Pic, not on the southeast slope. That way remains could fall directly downwards and land next to the trail. Of course, they could have been deposited there by animals, but that seems less likely than gravity, snowmelt, or running water. If I were a fox, I'm not sure I'd want to hazard that scree slope or crumbly mountain shelves.

 

[RickshawFan]

Esther's remains were found on Route B, roughly 30 metres below the peak.

Snipped for focus. What's the evidence for Route B? She'd have had to go up and over the Pic and down a spur. Remains wouldn't have rolled down onto the Port de la G trail on that wicked scree slope. IMO

 

[RickshawFan]

RSBM - they may have been worn but they certainly weren't old, as I posted in the last thread she only bought them in September, toward the end of the Alpine trek . I don't think they will have been cheap either (though it depends what you call cheap) - most of the La Sportiva shoes/boots are over €200.

For perspective, the kind of boots ED was wearing I would destroy in about 2 weeks, and I'm super easy on shoes (I have shoes from 20 years ago). The soles don't hold up—they go slick really fast—and the ankles have no support, even when you first buy them. Keep in mind, they are fabric, not leather and don't have lugged (e.g. Vibram) soles.

 

[RickshawFan]

I don't on a regular basis but I'd notice when cleaning the soles when it's been muddy going. Certainly wouldn't be expecting the tread to be worn, or looking for that, in a pair less than 3 months old.

Snipped for focus. I would, in contrast, expect those boots to be bald and sloppy. It sounds like yours are waaaaaay more robust. Even much less expensive boots can be waaaaaaay more robust.

 

[RickshawFan]

You ain't seen nothing yet!

RUTAS Y SENDEROS PIRENAICOS Y OTROS VIAJES: Image

That's 4608 x 3456 pixels and has two tiny people for scale.

Here's another taken even closer to the point of the arrow:

RUTAS Y SENDEROS PIRENAICOS Y OTROS VIAJES: Image

Here's a whole album of very detailed pictures taken in the vicinity of the Port:

Puerto de la Glera

And I'd seen this picture of the summit ridge before, but I'm not sure I'd noticed the tiny people on it:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UkglhcClU...con+la+Arista+Cimera+de+la+Glera.+6-6-14..JPG

I present these for public perusal without attaching any particular thesis.

Thanks so much for finding those! I tried, but had a hard time coming up with some. No one in their right mind is going up that thing! Solo?