Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

[FrostOwl]

@RickshawFan - the most trophies a member can get is 113, and when the forum changed format everyone who was active got the number of tropies their postings had generated.

 

[RickshawFan]

@RickshawFan - the most trophies a member can get is 113, and when the forum changed format everyone who was active got the number of tropies their postings had generated.

Well, foof. What kind of competition is that? No way I should have the same number of goodie-two-shoes points as @Niner . I mean, I'm just not in that league.

 

[ZaZara]

I have been going over the past few pages and I must say I am surprised by the idea that ED would have been headed for Hospice de France for whatever reason. She had prepared her trip well and if she had wanted to go there, she could have known that it was closed. However, the French side of the Pyrenees was off limits for her anyway and she knew this from the start of her trip.

France was (and is) IN LOCKDOWN. That is why ED travelled to Spain while she still could, because she would not have been allowed to hike in France or on the French side of the Pyrenees, let alone go down the mountain there.

There is no reason for the Hospice de France to be open, because no one is allowed to stay there, unless it is for work related reasons like repairs.

The aim of a lockdown is to prevent the spread of the virus. A person travelling from one place to another without good reason is yet another a potential source of infection. France does not want them.

The French were not very friendly when they issued the first missing persons report about Esther on November 27, but remained professional in their message on FB:

https://www.facebook.com/pghm.luchon/photos/a.419033311582925/1795972527222323/?type=3

This message has the sole purpose of the saving of human life. Although we understand the emotion caused by this behaviour in this period of lockdown, please do not comment on it. This is an emergency situation.

 

[RickshawFan]

I have been going over the past few pages and I must say I am surprised by the idea that ED would have been headed for Hospice de France for whatever reason. She had prepared her trip well and if she had wanted to go there, she could have known that it was closed. However, the French side of the Pyrenees was off limits for her anyway and she knew this from the start of her trip.

France was (and is) IN LOCKDOWN. That is why ED travelled to Spain while she still could, because she would not have been allowed to hike in France or on the French side of the Pyrenees, let alone go down the mountain there.

Snipped for focus.

This would be true of the Refuge, too, but it was available, despite the lockdown. Pretty much the whole loop planned (and other hikes ED had already done) were in lockdown zones. Her announced plan was to be hiking in France for the 2-3 days of this hike. Lockdown 'n all.

Being aware that there was a lockdown going on doesn't mean ED had taken in the implications. Or that it would specifically apply to the Hospice (which was a kind of multi-use facility).

IMO she might well have done things on the spur of the moment without fully checking.

 

[sundaaaay]

I think it’s more likely ED continued on her trail as planned. She even could have stayed at the Refuge de Venasque that night and the sniffer dogs didn’t pick up her scent as dogs are not always reliable or she decided to bivouac nearby. Either way I think it’s likely ED wandered off the track at some point and fell into a ravine such as this one below near the forested area Chemin de l'Impératrice at the bottom of the valley. To me this is the most logical explanation, and I think the reason she didn’t pass anyone else is because she arrived here very early the next morning before any other hikers had reached this section of the trail.

 

[Andreee]

Snipped for focus.

This would be true of the Refuge, too, but it was available, despite the lockdown. Pretty much the whole loop planned (and other hikes ED had already done) were in lockdown zones. Her announced plan was to be hiking in France for the 2-3 days of this hike. Lockdown 'n all.

Being aware that there was a lockdown going on doesn't mean ED had taken in the implications. Or that it would specifically apply to the Hospice (which was a kind of multi-use facility).

IMO she might well have done things on the spur of the moment without fully checking.

I was on another site last night, and so many hikers go hiking and can't be found after extensive searches. Someone mentioned how a GPS tracking device or similar would help so much with that, so I'm thinking shouldn't all hardcore hikers carry one? I don't know all the particulars, but it seems like it should be a 'given.'

 

[ZaZara]

Snipped for focus.

This would be true of the Refuge, too, but it was available, despite the lockdown. Pretty much the whole loop planned (and other hikes ED had already done) were in lockdown zones. Her announced plan was to be hiking in France for the 2-3 days of this hike. Lockdown 'n all.

Being aware that there was a lockdown going on doesn't mean ED had taken in the implications. Or that it would specifically apply to the Hospice (which was a kind of multi-use facility).

IMO she might well have done things on the spur of the moment without fully checking.

The Refuge is a small stone building in the middle of the Pyrenees with tents in the summer where hikers can sleep in bunkbeds.

Hospice de France is a restaurant with rooms and dormitories, a huge building at the end of a tarmac road.

Esther could hike in the Pyrenees as long as she went up from the Spanish side and returned to Spain. If in the middle of the Pyrenees, one trail or another would cross for a while through France, this would not be a problem, although technically it would not be right. But border controls in the middle of the mountains are few.
All this would change however, if Esther went down to Hospice de France on the French slopes of the Pyrenees. She could be in trouble if she did that.

IMO, reading her blog she was well aware of the implications of lockdown in France and a possible lockdown in Spain.

 

[RickshawFan]

I was on another site last night, and so many hikers go hiking and can't be found after extensive searches. Someone mentioned how a GPS tracking device or similar would help so much with that, so I'm thinking shouldn't all hardcore hikers carry one? I don't know all the particulars, but it seems like it should be a 'given.'

They aren't very common. I don't carry one (yet), but at this point I only do short hikes on busy trails. They should always be carried in avalanche territory.

Now there are smart phones, too. They can be used to call help in spots where there's cell service. (In the Cascades, they've set up cell towers on mountain peaks expressly to facilitate SAR.)

There are also different kinds of PLBs (Personal Locator Beacons). Many require an annual paid subscription.

While we don't have fresh information on this case, go through the particulars of

Too Cold: The Death of Kate Matrosova - Appalachian Mountain Club

Anatomy of a Search: When Hiker Called for Help, N.H. Rescuers Braved Monstrous Storm

Rescuer reflects on NH tragedy

Look at related videos, etc. This will give insight into PLB's (Personal Locator Beacons, pros and cons.)

The hiker was Kate Matrosova.

This also was a case of someone who was prepared and experienced but made many small mistakes in decision-making, which proved fatal.

Awful. Just awful.

 

[RickshawFan]

Esther could hike in the Pyrenees as long as she went up from the Spanish side and returned to Spain. If in the middle of the Pyrenees, one trail or another would cross for a while through France, this would not be a problem, although technically it would not be right. But border controls in the middle of the mountains are few.
All this would change however, if Esther went down to Hospice de France on the French slopes of the Pyrenees. She could be in trouble if she did that.

Snipped for focus.

I don't think anyone was suggesting ED would exit at the Hospice. The Hospice was part of a loop walk.

 

[otto]

I was on another site last night, and so many hikers go hiking and can't be found after extensive searches. Someone mentioned how a GPS tracking device or similar would help so much with that, so I'm thinking shouldn't all hardcore hikers carry one? I don't know all the particulars, but it seems like it should be a 'given.'

Maybe avalanche beacons should be used by backcountry hikers to ensure they can be found if necessary.

 

[RickshawFan]

Maybe avalanche beacons should be used by backcountry hikers to ensure they can be found if necessary.

Yes. Some backcountry users have PLBs, especially in snow sports.

Kate Matrosova had a PLB.

 

[Andreee]

Yes. Some backcountry users have PLBs, especially in snow sports.

Kate Matrosova had a PLB.

I assume there are several types gadgets that are useful for finding a person when lost.

 

[otto]

They aren't very common. I don't carry one (yet), but at this point I only do short hikes on busy trails. They should always be carried in avalanche territory.

Now there are smart phones, too. They can be used to call help in spots where there's cell service. (In the Cascades, they've set up cell towers on mountain peaks expressly to facilitate SAR.)

There are also different kinds of PLBs (Personal Locator Beacons). Many require an annual paid subscription.

While we don't have fresh information on this case, go through the particulars of

Too Cold: The Death of Kate Matrosova - Appalachian Mountain Club

Anatomy of a Search: When Hiker Called for Help, N.H. Rescuers Braved Monstrous Storm

Rescuer reflects on NH tragedy

Look at related videos, etc. This will give insight into PLB's (Personal Locator Beacons, pros and cons.)

The hiker was Kate Matrosova.

This also was a case of someone who was prepared and experienced but made many small mistakes in decision-making, which proved fatal.

Awful. Just awful.

That's quite a sad ending. Her big mistake was deciding to challenge nature. Everyone who lives like that has many thrilling experiences, but eventually they lose the game.

 

[otto]

I assume there are several types gadgets that are useful for finding a person when lost.

In the case of Kate Matrosova, the beacon gave multiple locations rather than one, so rescuers had too many locations to check. The articles do state that by the time she activated the beacon it was already too late to save her.

 

[RickshawFan]

The best snap shot of PLB's and what they do is this:

REI PLBs

Otherwise, you can use a smart phone, but it has limitations, too.

 

[RickshawFan]

In the case of Kate Matrosova, the beacon gave multiple locations rather than one, so rescuers had too many locations to check. The articles do state that by the time she activated the beacon it was already too late to save her.

Yes, there were apparently several issues with the beacon:
1. Since she had one, she may have decided to take more risks on the assumption she would be rescued.
2. She took off a glove to activate it: instant frozen hand.
3. It was in her pack, so she had to get the pack open. Packs have buckles and zippers. These could have frozen.
4. It was too cold for that model of PLB.
5. Evidently, you could only activate it once for it to work properly. She activated it repeatedly, sending SAR on a wild goose chase.
6. The satellites have to be in view. There was heavy cloud cover.

I brought this topic up in the context of our thread, because it's so easy to go off the mark with what look to be minor decisions. Sometimes, you don't appreciate implications, either. In ED's case, something as simple as hiking past the Refuge could have been fatal. It was very cold that night, and ED's mattress was going to make her super duper-cold, since it was an air mattress, probably not the expensive model of the same style that has insulation and a good warmth rating (R-value). She likely had the summer model. This puts air under you. -10C air evidently? Ayayay. In the Refuge, she'd have had a lot more protection from the elements; she could have slept on the floor and built a fire, plied herself with hot drinks. She wouldn't be sweating from exertion, so her clothes wouldn't be getting wet and making her prone to hypothermia.

But, as I say, what might look good on paper or "I did it before" might be disastrous in reality. Both ED and Matrosova may have been typically very inflexible. Both were all about "pushing their comfort zones." Nature has no respect for that behavior.

 

[otto]

I was lost in the rocky mountains one day. We headed out snow shoeing, following a trail. At one point, hours in, we realized we were off trail. It happened without noticing. As we tried to head down to the parking lot, we came to a stream that we could not cross. We chose a direction based on the sunset and eventually found our way to a road, where we then hiked to the parking lot. It was well after dark when we came out of the mountains. That was the last time I went snow shoeing. It doesn't take much to be in trouble.

 

[CrimeAway]

I assume there are several types gadgets that are useful for finding a person when lost.

There was a case in the US 1-2 years ago, where a young lady was murdered while out jogging. Her Fit-Bit provided useful information, IIRC. Unfortunately, I can't remember the victim's name, but I believe the case has still not come to trial.

 

[RedHaus]

I think it’s more likely ED continued on her trail as planned. She even could have stayed at the Refuge de Venasque that night and the sniffer dogs didn’t pick up her scent as dogs are not always reliable or she decided to bivouac nearby. Either way I think it’s likely ED wandered off the track at some point and fell into a ravine such as this one below near the forested area Chemin de l'Impératrice at the bottom of the valley. To me this is the most logical explanation, and I think the reason she didn’t pass anyone else is because she arrived here very early the next morning before any other hikers had reached this section of the trail.
View attachment 277145

Happy Sunday, @sundaaaay!

I am with you on this. That is a beautiful but treacherous ravine to stumble upon at dusk or dawn.

I think most of us believe ED started her last planned multi-day hike on 11/21. That included summiting Pic de S after the ride she got from the 70 year old hiker and his grandson, and taking all those pics at the summit. We don't know where she spent the night 11/21, but many of us think she was not at her van in Banesque (too far away). But where she stayed was likely far enough away that she made it back to the slope of Pic de S the next day (11/22) at about 3pm.

The data that steered some of us to question whether she actually summited Pic de S on 11/22 - a second time - as most of us had presumed, was 1) we estimate she encountered the skier below the Port de V based on the time it was going to take her to summit from there, 2) just because her final message to DC with a pic of her at the summit of Pic de S was posted at 4pm, it does not mean she was actually there since it records a cell tower ping, not an actual location, 3) some here have postulated all the pictures of her at the summit of Pic de S were taken 11/21, at different times, 4) ED would have gotten to the Port de V at about 3:30, and given how late it was she likely decided to cross into France, and 5) if ED did need water (wit fruit episode with skier), water from streams beyond the refuge would be more desirable.

ED had always planned to do the French, loop, right? I believe that was the route DC shared publicly. There are several pics up thread depicting the route ED planned to take (and possible alternative route). And IMO and yours, she made it past the Refuge de V, either camping there or continuing past via the upper trail that I think @otto found.

Anyhow, IMO ED camped (tent is an unknown, right?) / bivouac'd in the valley beyond the Refuge. If she bivouac'd she either possibly succumbed to hypothermia that night (11/22) or continued on her planned route the next morning (11/23) in and around that forest, ravines and streams and had an accident. So IMO ED may never have made it to the Hospice de France, and she may never have planned to stay there anyhow. It was just a milestone on her planned trek.

As for the 4:00pm Pic de S cell tower ping to ED's phone that is known, I think that data was sent by her phone (either live by ED or when it got cell service again while she was hiking) on her way out of the Refuge de V valley. We know there is no cell service at the Refuge but there is shortly afterwards. IMO, that is why ED made it past the Refuge. If she did as is described here, a 4:00pm Pic de S cell tower ping would indicate she was past the Refuge.

And of course, this brings me back to the question I posed recently - did SAR search the woods in that valley?

 

[RickshawFan]

Is that the ravine on the trail to the Hospice from the Refuge? Or?

FWIW I agree with most everything in RedHaus's post ^^.