Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

[jsoap]

Typical lazy journalism from another tabloid. The source of the update is an interview with the Sunday Mirror Boyfriend of missing backpacker shares their final texts and theories on mystery

Here is a snip that clarifies things a bit

• One, sent from 2,727m Pic de Sauvegarde on November 22, read: “I’m on a col/peak so can’t stop for too long. Can’t wait to read all your messages. Love you very much *advertiser censored* having a really good time.”
• Some 35 minutes later, just after 4pm, Esther wrote that she was headed for the Port de la Glere mountain pass the next day, adding: “Might dip into France.
• “Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can. Love you *advertiser censored*”

A one and a half minute video call followed – the last time they spoke. Dan recalled: “We were both very happy to see each other so happy. We were also excited we’d be together again in a few days.”

 

[otto]

Hopefully this new communication will prompt an update from the Spanish / French police forces in charge of the investigation.

It doesn't sound like new information. The search included the area from the Port de Venasque to the Port de Glere on both sides of the border. That is where she was hiking with plans to possibly "dip into France" later. She was not headed to the Port de Venasque.

Esther's partner mentioned hunters as culprits - we know that he wonders whether she was abducted at gunpoint at the top of a mountain.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Typical lazy journalism from another tabloid. The source of the update is an interview with the Sunday Mirror Boyfriend of missing backpacker shares their final texts and theories on mystery

Here is a snip that clarifies things a bit

Map showing the loop, from that article. It’s clear she was doing it anticlockwise, just as we have thought from day one.

 

[otto]

Typical lazy journalism from another tabloid. The source of the update is an interview with the Sunday Mirror Boyfriend of missing backpacker shares their final texts and theories on mystery

Here is a snip that clarifies things a bit

How can she be headed to Port de Glere, maybe dip into France later, and hoping that the refuge has a Winter room? Was he paying attention to her route? Did he understand that she had to dip into France to go to the refuge?

It doesn't make sense - what he is saying about her trip plan.

 

[jsoap]

How can she be headed to Port de Glere, maybe dip into France later, and hoping that the refuge has a Winter room? Was he paying attention to her route? Did he understand that she had to dip into France to go to the refuge?

It doesn't make sense - what he is saying about her trip plan.

This is mis quoted - read the Mirror article

• Some 35 minutes later, just after 4pm, Esther wrote that she was headed for the Port de la Glere mountain pass the next day, adding: “Might dip into France.

 

[Grouse]

Interesting article
Hunting in the Pyrenees | Beautiful scenery in France

Thanks, was going to do a search on it today. Chamois goat one of the things mentioned, ED mentioned those fondly in some of her posts.

 

[Grouse]

This is mis quoted - read the Mirror article

• Some 35 minutes later, just after 4pm, Esther wrote that she was headed for the Port de la Glere mountain pass the next day, adding: “Might dip into France.

Yes, to me that doesn't necessarily mean Port de la Glere on 22nd instead of Refuge de Venasque but more likely after it on 23rd (eg. via route as per CoverMeGagney's post #1043), even though technically she'd have already dipped into France when she got to the refuge.

New (to me anyway) snippet about the refuge having no sign-in book.

 

[patCee]

There were clearly hunters in the relevant areas both before and after the SAR searches that DC noticed. The hunting season was in full swing at that time. This also means people around that could have seen ED. It's possible, that if they haven't already done so, someone will still come forward with information or some indication of where she had been, e.g items of hers. Hunters will be all over the place and not sticking to trails.

 

[Quietey]

The hunting aspect is clearly something that we overlooked and is high on the list of possibilities, IMO.

I remember news articles from last year about people being shot. I just had a quick google and my eyes were opened by what came up, knowing nothing about hunting or the scale of it.

There is clearly a big risk to people in the same areas as hunters (both in France and Spain). I don't know anything about these publications, but here is a small selection of what came up! (not for the Sauvegard area, just examples):

• (article dated 30 Nov 2020) https://www.thelocal.es/20201130/sp...t-dark-day-as-two-brown-bears-shot-by-hunters
  
• Traps on French forest paths endanger bikers and walkers
• Six arrested in eastern France after illegal boar hunt
  
• Hunting for large game permitted in France despite lockdown
• French Alps shooting: 'Nowhere is safe' in hunting area - refers to French Alps but includes some interesting lines, applicable to any area where hunters are likely - eg "but make sure that alongside your walking boots and poles you pack a high-vis vest and a whistle."

 

[Quietey]

There were clearly hunters in the relevant areas both before and after the SAR searches that DC noticed. The hunting season was in full swing at that time. This also means people around that could have seen ED. It's possible, that if they haven't already done so, someone will still come forward with information or some indication of where she had been, e.g items of hers. Hunters will be all over the place and not sticking to trails.

.... and possibly hunting illegally, and wishing to conceal what they were doing

 

[patCee]

I remember news articles from last year about people being shot. I just had a quick google and my eyes were opened by what came up, knowing nothing about hunting or the scale of it.

In the UK it's very strict and easier to control as not so many extensive wild areas shared by animals and the general public alike. Permission to shoot is needed. Gun licences are very strictly monitored. In mountains it would not be easy (or possible I guess) to section off areas, or to monitor them.
Hunting in areas used by other sports e.g. hikers, skiers is a dangerous mix IMO. Better to avoid during the hunting season, but unavoidable for skiers. A bullet or arrow can't be controlled once it's been fired. In the hands of an inexperienced, or over excited hunter, if the animal moves their aim could change in a split second without thinking of safety.

 

[jsoap]

In France hunting for agricultural reasons, for example wild boar, deer, was permitted. Also hunters were exempt from the travel restrictions.
I've come across hunters a couple of times and it's not a pleasant experience. However they normally put up warning notices at the trail head, which ED, coming from the Porte, would not know about. Also hunters would not be expecting hikers in the area - making it more dangerous again.

 

[Grouse]

The hunting aspect is clearly something that we overlooked and is high on the list of possibilities, IMO.

I remember news articles from last year about people being shot. I just had a quick google and my eyes were opened by what came up, knowing nothing about hunting or the scale of it.

There is clearly a big risk to people in the same areas as hunters (both in France and Spain). I don't know anything about these publications, but here is a small selection of what came up! (not for the Sauvegard area, just examples):

• (article dated 30 Nov 2020) https://www.thelocal.es/20201130/sp...t-dark-day-as-two-brown-bears-shot-by-hunters
  
• Traps on French forest paths endanger bikers and walkers
• Six arrested in eastern France after illegal boar hunt
  
• Hunting for large game permitted in France despite lockdown
• French Alps shooting: 'Nowhere is safe' in hunting area - refers to French Alps but includes some interesting lines, applicable to any area where hunters are likely - eg "but make sure that alongside your walking boots and poles you pack a high-vis vest and a whistle."

Interesting post. Yes it is starting to look like a significant aspect to be considered. From what we know ED was not wearing high-vis. Also she was up there lateish in the day , that might be the time some hunters favour when the few hikers that were around have usually gone back down, but there's still daylight.

An accidental shooting? Maybe even an encounter - her fondness for the chamois goats, who she called her friends in other posts, might cause a conflict if she saw someone shoot one.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Listing all the equipment she had on her, Dan’s dossier notes: “If Esther did have an accident, it must have been instantly incapacitating, preventing her from deploying any form of shelter.

“There simply aren’t that many places where an individual can fall a significant distance from the trail and become both incapacitated and invisible instantly.

“Such places were the focus of the search already and no sign was found.”

Missing backpacker's boyfriend 'still holding on to hope'

 

[RedHaus]

The hunting aspect is clearly something that we overlooked and is high on the list of possibilities, IMO.

I remember news articles from last year about people being shot. I just had a quick google and my eyes were opened by what came up, knowing nothing about hunting or the scale of it.

There is clearly a big risk to people in the same areas as hunters (both in France and Spain). I don't know anything about these publications, but here is a small selection of what came up! (not for the Sauvegard area, just examples):

• (article dated 30 Nov 2020) https://www.thelocal.es/20201130/sp...t-dark-day-as-two-brown-bears-shot-by-hunters
  
• Traps on French forest paths endanger bikers and walkers
• Six arrested in eastern France after illegal boar hunt
  
• Hunting for large game permitted in France despite lockdown
• French Alps shooting: 'Nowhere is safe' in hunting area - refers to French Alps but includes some interesting lines, applicable to any area where hunters are likely - eg "but make sure that alongside your walking boots and poles you pack a high-vis vest and a whistle."

Being shot could be one scenario, but I'll also add this description about Cabane Pesson (near the Hospice de France) - its commonly used by hunters. Like others here, I hadn't thought of a possible encounter with a mal-intentioned hunter or group of hunters... possibly by innocently approaching an isolated cabane, like this one.

Cabane du Pesson 1500 m (cabane non gardée)

 

[Ruthbullock]

Just putting a bit of my personal perspective on the hunting. Having lived in a village in Europe for 10 years where the village social life and all the village social events were based around hunting- not once did I hear of anyone being accidentally shot. Hunters do not want to miss, one stray bullet would lead to animals for sometimes miles around ( depending on acoustics) scarpering.They would sit for hours drinking their beers and chatting just waiting for the perfect shot. It wasn’t a food source- it was a hobby for socialising and being crowned king of the village. If ED was accidentally shot by walking in the line of fire (which is unlikely as her very presence and movements would lead to the animal moving) do we really think when they were doing something perfectly legal (not sure on the Covid rules of exercising outdoors, but I would think that was still allowed) that they would all conspire to hide her body ( as it would be found eventually with a traceable bullet if left in situ) and keep it a secret forever? Whilst it could have happened- it’s IMO less likely than anything else we have discussed on this page.

 

[Grouse]

Being shot could be one scenario, but I'll also add this description about Cabane Pesson (near the Hospice de France) - its commonly used by hunters. Like others here, I hadn't thought of a possible encounter with a mal-intentioned hunter or group of hunters... possibly by innocently approaching an isolated cabane, like this one.

Cabane du Pesson 1500 m (cabane non gardée)

I mentioned my concern (influenced admittedly by what happened to someone I knew) about the safety of a lone female solo backpacking generally, and also at these refuges in particular, back in thread #1 around post #145 and #130. Think the concensus then, particularly from some of the female members on here who have solo hiking experience, was that it would be highly unlikely (though of course not impossible) among the mountain hiking community. But yes, at that point the hunting community hadn't been discussed I don't think. If there were some hunter characters at the Refuge de Venasque that night it does open up other possibilities.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I mentioned my concern (influenced admittedly by what happened to someone I knew) about the safety of a lone female solo backpacking and also these refuges back in thread #1 around post #145 and after. Think the concensus then, particularly from some of the female members on here who have solo hiking experience, was that it would be highly unlikely (though of course not impossible) among the mountain hiking community. But yes, at that point the hunting community hadn't been discussed I don't think. If there were some hunter characters at the Refuge de Venasque that night it does open up other possibilities.

If something happened in the refuge with a group of hunters- would there not have been some evidence of something happening there? Unless they were stalking ED and pre planned being there and had the tools and equipment to eradicate any evidence. If it was someone who had preplanned something then it’s more likely to be a random lone person than a group of people hunting. The refuges are pretty grim and filthy- evidence to some degree of foul play would be obvious whether left or cleaned up.
The confusion for me comes when DC is not posting please come home and I miss you posts, which then contradicts his belief she is still alive or there was foul play, even if held captive I would hold the hope that they would somehow be seen or trigger someone’s guilt response to own up to a crime. I’m also aware everything is now being controlled by LBT, so it may not be down to DCs personal choice.

 

[Hexe]

If there were some hunter characters at the Refuge de Venasque that night it does open up other possibilities.

I would be surprised if there was ayone IN that refuge on November 22, 2020, as it was closed due to strict lockdown in France. Both Esther and other people could camp in the area, but using the facilities of the refuge ws fully impossible.

 

[Grouse]

If something happened in the refuge with a group of hunters- would there not have been some evidence of something happening there?

RSBM

Yes if inside the actual refuge (could have been nearby or even en route on the descent) and if it has been thoroughly checked. When the check of the refuge was discussed before on here, tracker dogs were mentioned and it was stated by some that if she'd been there they'd have found something. But in all this I have seen no reports of anything relating to tracker dogs, other than the fact they were used. Given she was on the Pic at 4PM and seen going up at 3PM I'd have thought there might have been some references, such as scent was found at location x but nothing after point y, as I've seen mentioned in other cases.

I'm not getting too carried away on this point but it certainly merits consideration IMO.