Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[ZaZara]

Social media pleas and general coverage on FB of a woman in Australia who disappeared on Dec 30th "without a trace" is so very different from how ED's disappearance is being managed. I find it odd we've not heard more from her mother, or her aunt. Is it because LBT has silenced them, and, if so, why? DC stated LBT Global asked him not to speak with the media – that's not a direct quote from him, but the gist of it, IIRC. Why would that be their advice?

Is there snow in Australia? (at all?)

 

[Grouse]

Social media pleas and general coverage on FB of a woman in Australia who disappeared on Dec 30th "without a trace" is so very different from how ED's disappearance is being managed. I find it odd we've not heard more from her mother, or her aunt. Is it because LBT has silenced them, and, if so, why? DC stated LBT Global asked him not to speak with the media – that's not a direct quote from him, but the gist of it, IIRC. Why would that be their advice?

BBM - Can't speak for Australia, but IMO that would be very sensible advice to give to a British family based on how our tabloid press operates. They can be utterly ruthless in their treatment of people involved - Christopher Jefferies in the Joanna Yeates case being a classic example. That's why I think it was the right thing for them to do in using LBT for handling communications.

 

[RickshawFan]

As I was out walking just now, I began to think about "going beyond one's comfort zone" and what that really entails. I thought I'd make some comments with the idea of re-setting or perhaps developing where the conversation seems to be drifting.
These are philosophical ideas and not necessarily applicable to the current case, but perhaps they will expand our thinking.

For me, I evaluate "being beyond one's comfort zone" in two poles.
Pole 1 "Going beyond one's comfort zone" is a way of embracing life.
Pole 2 "Going beyond one's comfort zone" is a way of flirting with death.

We likely have all voluntarily dipped into both poles.

Pole 1 can range from the banal "I went TOTALLY out of my comfort zone yesterday and had popcorn for breakfast." True story. Or "Let me deepen the stretch on my hamstrings." Or "It will almost certainly scare me to death, but I'm going to try that 10-story roller coaster."

Pole 2 looks more like tempting fate, as in "I wonder how long I can hold my breath underwater? I've got to train myself not to respond to my first few itches to re-surface." Or "I'm going to climb the most difficult face of K2 in winter, even though the odds of having a fatal accident even in season on the easy route are astronomical." True story, by the way: it happened this last weekend to a top mountaineer.

Pole 1 accounts for risk and navigates through fear.
Pole 2 grasps the risk and it turns Pole-2-ers on.
I would surmise there are emotional conditions on either pole.

******
Before I hit "post", I want to allow for the possibility that you could be at Pole 1, but make a mistake. For instance, I decided one day to "beat my personal best" on an exercise bicycle. This was clearly a Pole 1 position.
I thought I was in the correct heart-rate zone for me, around 155 beats per minute. And, woohoo! I did beat my personal best by a few seconds. However, BIG MISTAKE, I almost gave myself a heart attack. I ended up in the ER for hours, white as a sheet, nauseous, indigestion, pain shooting down my left arm, EKG all over the place, stabbing in the back..... And...they wanted me to go inpatient. My BIG mistake? I was MILES wrong about the optimal beats per minute.
So, Pole 1 can result in accidents or miscalculations, but it is still not in the vein of "flirting with death".

So, are we looking at Pole 1 or Pole 2 when it comes to this case? Opinions?

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
So, are we looking at Pole 1 or Pole 2 when it comes to this case? Opinions?

Nearer to pole 1 than pole 2 IMO. You only have to look back through Esther's SM posts to see she's not a taker of crazy risks for the sake of it.

As for the exercise bike that's a scary story you ending up in ER. Was it a heart attack? Hope you are OK now.

 

[Grouse]

I'll find it: the tone was not happy. I took it to convey "royally ticked." This is also normal for SAR teams. They don't like independent searches: they can cause more accidents, and throw off a carefully gridded search.
LE has repeatedly said they know what they're doing.

Did you manage to find the source for this BTW?

 

[Puzzles]

Is there snow in Australia? (at all?)

Aha yes, ZaZara. Australia has more snow fields than Switzerland and Austria combined. Skiing instructors often move between Australia and Europe in order to teach year-round. The missing woman is not known to be in the snowfields. Also, of course, it's summer there now.

 

[Puzzles]

BBM - Can't speak for Australia, but IMO that would be very sensible advice to give to a British family based on how our tabloid press operates. They can be utterly ruthless in their treatment of people involved - Christopher Jefferies in the Joanna Yeates case being a classic example. That's why I think it was the right thing for them to do in using LBT for handling communications.

That's a most valid point. Thanks, Grouse.

 

[Quietey]

No I think she gained and lost the weight while they were together. I definitely read it but can't remember where now. They both went through a bad time with health and depression issues.

Can I ask why you ask?

It's all on the blog:

Specifically, weight loss is mentioned under "Meet Esther " (pull down the "about" tab). She makes reference to body image / weight in a couple of places eg

• "I was born with eczema and spent weeks in hospital and it meant during my school years I was bullied. For years and years I've had an issue with my body image yet now I've turned that around for good!" and
• "I was in desperate need to slow down and learn what it meant to look after myself. Cheesecake, pizza and late nights juggling 3 jobs were not the way to health and happiness. Ending up 30kg overweight, friends not recognising me, high blood pressure and finally a virus which later lead to a ME/CFS breakdown, frazzling my nervous system should have been enough of a warning sign but no I still pushed on and on. ...."

There is a absolute mass of very personal information about Esther and Dan, and their relationship on the blog, including information about disagreements they had (see 17 Years On - A Relationship That's Totally Perfect In Its Imperfection | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel). It's incredibly personal. The "about our blog" pages states "we decided that we wouldn't try and remove or change any of the older posts on the blog. It's a record of our journey." - hopefully each of them would be able to disable the blog if they changed their mind on this.

IMO Esther was struggling (dark clothing - no evidence of the bright clothing referred to on the blog), and struggling to take proper care of herself (possible inadequate food supplies). For all the apparent freedom the lifestyle had no stability or real direction (nothing wrong with this - a lot of people go through the same), and so much time alone to overthink things - perhaps leading her to make decisions that were different from those expected of her.

 

[Inverloch]

Is there a websleuth thread about the Australian thread mentioned?

 

[otto]

jsoap - the cables on are on the way to the Pic Sauvegarde from the Refuge de Vanesque, right? And for ED, it would be on her way to the Refuge, if our facts are right. And RickshawFan has posted this blog before so thanks for posting again... I think these are vitally important pictures to understand the terrain and topography for ED.

The hiking blog timeline shows that the cables are between the Port de Venasque and the Pic de Sauvegarde.

 

[RickshawFan]

I keep catching up and then get distracted, so apologies for being out of sync with the thread conversation. We all discussed timings from the refuge to the hospice, but today I read a post that referred to it taking 4 hours- that is the allocated time for an ascent and descent from the hospice to the refuge. It would have been quite possible to reach the hospice (but not much further) before darkness fully fell, if ED had travelled further that way.
En savoir plus sur l'itinéraire
Altitude départ 1385
Horaire montée 2h15
Horaire descente 1h45
Parking Oui à l'Hospice de France
Approche Non
Facile à trouver ? Evident
Fréquentation Beaucoup de monde en été.
Refuge
Refuge de Vénasque au bord des lacs.
Topo Randonnée : Lacs de Vénasque

It looks like that would be off by quite a bit. The sign at the Hospice shows 3 hours to the Port de Venasque. And ED was up yet higher by about 1/2 hour. For an extremely skilled hiker with daypack, down from the top of the Pic to the Hospice, it's 3 hours firm.
Some of my concern with the "how far could ED go before darkness" question puts the trip in an extremely high risk category. For a risk-savvy person, solo, isolated, in winter, with no need to "make miles", this should not be where the mind is going. If the mind was going there, there's something very, very, wrong, and it would be impossible to imagine where that person would end up that night.

 

[10ofRods]

As RickshawFan said before, sometimes experienced people are experienced in doing things the wrong way. Shehad a lot of experience under her belt, but she certainly wasn't doing the things right way, not about food.



Before you will loose your strength to the piont of collapsing, the malnutrition can do many weird things with your mind. You cannot focus, your brain seems to be wrapped in wet cotton wool, you are confused, fatigued, cold o matter how many clothes you put on, and all you can think about is food. Deprivaton of certain nutrients can even trigger psychosis.

Yes, exactly. Protein malnutrition is the reason. The brain needs a ton of protein to function properly (go watch some early Survivor episodes when all the cast had to eat was rice - it wasn't pretty). People in the throes of protein deprivation do not usually realize it either, because their brains are compromised. Good decision making goes out the window.

Our bodies do not store protein readily (there's a bit stored in the kidneys but when the body goes into protein deficiency, it begins to break down its only other store: the muscles, including the heart, which is why protein malnutrition is so dangerous).

Oats are not a great source of protein. You'd have to eat a lot of oats every day to get enough protein for a sedentary lifestyle, much less a hiker's lifestyle. Many women regard achieving a smaller size (regardless of whether it's fat or muscle loss) as a goal.

 

[Grouse]

It's all on the blog:

Specifically, weight loss is mentioned under "Meet Esther " (pull down the "about" tab). She makes reference to body image / weight in a couple of places eg

• "I was born with eczema and spent weeks in hospital and it meant during my school years I was bullied. For years and years I've had an issue with my body image yet now I've turned that around for good!" and
• "I was in desperate need to slow down and learn what it meant to look after myself. Cheesecake, pizza and late nights juggling 3 jobs were not the way to health and happiness. Ending up 30kg overweight, friends not recognising me, high blood pressure and finally a virus which later lead to a ME/CFS breakdown, frazzling my nervous system should have been enough of a warning sign but no I still pushed on and on. ...."

There is a absolute mass of very personal information about Esther and Dan, and their relationship on the blog, including information about disagreements they had (see 17 Years On - A Relationship That's Totally Perfect In Its Imperfection | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel). It's incredibly personal. The "about our blog" pages states "we decided that we wouldn't try and remove or change any of the older posts on the blog. It's a record of our journey." - hopefully each of them would be able to disable the blog if they changed their mind on this.

IMO Esther was struggling (dark clothing - no evidence of the bright clothing referred to on the blog), and struggling to take proper care of herself (possible inadequate food supplies). For all the apparent freedom the lifestyle had no stability or real direction (nothing wrong with this - a lot of people go through the same), and so much time alone to overthink things - perhaps leading her to make decisions that were different from those expected of her.

Thanks @Quietey for retrieving that. There's quite a lot of information that seems to imply ED was struggling in some ways I agree, and I'm not trying to play those down. I still tend to think with the food issue in particular though that it's perhaps a natural thing after all those issues in early life and the 30kg overweight etc , to maybe go a bit to the other extreme once you have beaten the issues. Like my ex-smoker analogy earlier (which I can attest to from personal experience) - there's no fanatic like a convert as the saying goes.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
Oats are not a great source of protein. You'd have to eat a lot of oats every day to get enough protein for a sedentary lifestyle, much less a hiker's lifestyle. Many women regard achieving a smaller size (regardless of whether it's fat or muscle loss) as a goal.

According to https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods/oats#nutrients - "Oats are a good source of quality protein at 11–17% of dry weight, which is higher than most other grains"

 

[RickshawFan]

Nearer to pole 1 than pole 2 IMO. You only have to look back through Esther's SM posts to see she's not a taker of crazy risks for the sake of it.

As for the exercise bike that's a scary story you ending up in ER. Was it a heart attack? Hope you are OK now.

So, how about this... What if ED's mental state on November 21-22 put her in Pole 2?

*****
About me, thanks. No actual heart problem showed up. But they fixed it 5 hours in with standard heart medication, namely baby aspirin.

 

[Grouse]

So, how about this... What if ED's mental state on November 21-22 put her in Pole 2?

*****
About me, thanks. No actual heart problem showed up. But they fixed it 5 hours in with standard heart medication, namely baby aspirin.

What if? Who knows? We can all speculate, but that's all it is.

*****

Very glad to hear that

 

[RickshawFan]

“Esther only took dried oats, a red pepper and a small lettuce. I ended up sharing the food I'd taken for myself when we reached a refuge for the night called Refugio de Pescadores, which included a can of tuna and potatoes we heated up in the evening and an apple the following morning.”

Missing hiker Esther Dingley had love life problems says witness as British police called in to help | Daily Mail Online

IMO the mindset that brings only oats, a pepper, and a small lettuce on an overnight hike in winter is an example of what upthread I've called Pole 2.

 

[RickshawFan]

jsoap - the cables on are on the way to the Pic Sauvegarde from the Refuge de Vanesque, right? And for ED, it would be on her way to the Refuge, if our facts are right. And RickshawFan has posted this blog before so thanks for posting again... I think these are vitally important pictures to understand the terrain and topography for ED.

The cables are half way up to the Pic from the Port.

 

[10ofRods]

Physio Laura, 27, who lives in Spain, spoke to a Thames Valley officer on December 11 and said: “They wanted to know my opinion on how well prepared Esther had been in terms of equipment, plus her physical and emotional shape.

“I told them what she said to me about their relationship.

"Esther said she and Dan were taking a break and she didn’t know if they were going to get back together.

Missing hiker Esther Dingley 'had problems in her love life' Brit cops hear as they join search for her (thesun.co.uk)

So why has this been released into the media now? She gave the report in December (11th) to British police.

If DC and Esther were taking a break (and there's no reason to think she is lying as she gave her statement to Thames Valley Police), then why hasn't this been made public previously? I'm finding this stranger and stranger - so much does not add up. Nothing is straightforward. What next? If nothing else, it tells me the police investigation is progressing faster than we may think

We did hear this earlier. Someone in either the Spanish or French side of the investigation mentioned then. Then Esther's husband went to some lengths to clarify the record and say this was a misunderstanding, they were still together, still all right as as couple.

It's in the first thread.

 

[RickshawFan]

First is the idea that she seemingly expects others to share their food with her, in order for her to “travel light.” So this “asking for food” is actually part of her travel plan. She does not plan to be self sufficient...quite the opposite. She gets to travel light and expects others to meet her needs.

Thats somewhat selfish IMO. Obviously she carries no food to share or to help another person...but seems to have this expectation of others.

Snipped for focus
Very selfish and very dangerous. IMO this is not someone who is actively assessing risk and taking corresponding precautions.
It's possible ED thinks she's risk-averse, however.

I personally get super annoyed when others on the trail seem to expect that everyone else can accommodate them so they can go ultralight 'cos aren't they special. Grrr....