Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[beubeubeu]

I'm vegetarian, as much as I can I prefer vegan diet. I never been in spain but in other european countries it's just expansive to eat like that. And usually it's hard to find good things around less populated, hiking trail areas.
Buying it wherever may cost few times more than making one big grocery shopping in bigger city (if you have a way to store it).
She was probably starving. Maybe even without realizing that, just running on fumes.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I understand, but I have also noticed the word "naive" to describe Esther many times. It does give the benefit of the doubt in terms of her expecting strangers to provide for her as her "naive" way of making new temporary friends. It's just that I disagree that she was naive.

She's an Oxford educated woman in her late 30s who had enough financial savvy to essentially retire in her early 30s so she could travel the world and have fun adventures. There's nothing naive about that. I'm interpreting this more along the lines of pushing limits to see how far she could go. I see this as a woman who achieves a goal, so she refines the parameters and expectations for the next goal.

If they travel without food, what happens? If they stay on the mountain too late when a snow storm is blowing in, what happens? If she starts hiking the summit late in the day when everyone is heading home, what happens? If she hikes without enough food what happens? That's how I see her, not as a naive woman who didn't know better, or who believed that asking strangers for gifts was friendly, but as someone who defined her trip plan such that it would be more challenging than the previous trip.

I can see that applying to them, definitely. I see what you mean.

 

[beubeubeu]

I understand, but I have also noticed the word "naive" to describe Esther many times. It does give the benefit of the doubt in terms of her expecting strangers to provide for her as her "naive" way of making new temporary friends. It's just that I disagree that she was naive.

She's an Oxford educated woman in her late 30s who had enough financial savvy to essentially retire in her early 30s so she could travel the world and have fun adventures. There's nothing naive about that. I'm interpreting this more along the lines of pushing limits to see how far she could go. I see this as a woman who achieves a goal, so she refines the parameters and expectations for the next goal.

If they travel without food, what happens? If they stay on the mountain too late when a snow storm is blowing in, what happens? If she starts hiking the summit late in the day when everyone is heading home, what happens? If she hikes without enough food what happens? That's how I see her, not as a naive woman who didn't know better, or who believed that asking strangers for gifts was friendly, but as someone who defined her trip plan such that it would be more challenging than the previous trip.

Many well educated, relatively wealthy people fell into cults and all kinds of dangerous ideologies. "You would never expect that" kind of deal, you would never... Except it happens and it's not at all rare, especially if a person feels like life is missing something crucial.

 

[PNW]

No. It doesn't work like that. You can't overpass your own physiology.

I absolutely think people can run on less food than others. I don’t eat breakfast or lunch (no time, I work 12 hr days) and am perfectly fine until dinner. It’s no big deal to me.

 

[RedHaus]

Here are assumptions I have in my mind - key factors to ED's trek and fate, IMO!

1. ED may be dependent on others for structure, decisions and planning - she went from home to school to a 18 yr. relationship with DC who is structured and practical
2. ED has a very sensitive and empathic soul and, as at least one other has opined, may be a people pleaser - she may even put on airs to meet others' expectations
3. ED has a history of depression, chronic fatigue syndrome and perhaps a borderline eating disorder - alone, without DC for a month, these may have been exacerbated
4. ED and DC may be expert at economics and finances (along the lines of their degrees) but not at nutrition and biology - their vegan diet may lack protein and fat

5. ED is likely well provisioned technically but not biologically to keep her body going, especially not ample food and water back up if she was to get into trouble
6. ED was probably physically depleted by 21/11 after a month of being on her own, hiking up tall peaks, and likely not eating well enough to sustain her body's needs
7. ED likely did not make it back to Banasque or to her van 22/11 - 24/11 because there are no other publicized sightings of her, but there is still a possibility she did
8. ED starts her final solo trek on 21/11, gets to summit of pic de sauvegarde, but turns back and stays at the trail head cabane, possibly because she did not feel well

9. Early to mid afternoon on 22/11, after resting at the cabane perhaps until she felt a bit better, ED tries again to finish her planned trek to "dip into France"
10. On her way back towards the pic de sauvegarde summit, ED encounters the skier and with her body likely pining for nutrition, she asks for fruit or something fresh
11. After that encounter, possibly feeling depleted (her 20 hours of rest may not have helped much if she had nutrition deficiency) she strives to get back to the summit
12. On 22/11 at the summit, ED was likely not in a sound state of mind due to lack of nutrition and/or emotional issues - so her decision making was likely compromised

Given all that, my mind is considering the following routes ED took after her 22/11 DC contact, IMO!:

A. ED decided she could not continue on due to her physical and/or emotional state - her self preservation kicked in and she descended towards Banasque, or
B. ED headed towards the Refuge de Vanesque as she stated to DC, and may or may not have stayed there (the data saying she didn't appears flimsy), and/or
C. ED tried to stay true to her goal of a 'loop' to Port de Glere but because she felt depleted took the shorter route from the Refuge de V towards Lac de la Montagnette

And finally, my mind is considering the following possibilities as to ED's fate on 22/11 or 23/11, IMO!: (note: not sure if this list is in order of probability... maybe)

I. ED took her own life and is at the bottom of Boums de Vanesque or Lac de la Montagnette, or she is hidden away in a forest or cave or some hard to find location
II. ED was abducted from her van or via a hitchhike-gone-bad on her way back to Banasque from the pic de Sauvegarde or Port de Glere trail heads
III. ED fell from the trail into one of those two lakes because of her weakened condition and perhaps due to a fluke event - a collapse, trip, loose shoelace, chamois, etc.
-------------
IV. ED was struck by a car in the dark (in her dark clothes) on the roads back to her van in Banasque from either of those trail heads (Pic de S or Port de Glere)
V. ED voluntarily disappeared but not sighted when in Banasque (or Luchon?) or since she disappeared (used to be my #1, but less likely now given the lapsed time)

I thought this post would be briefer than it turned out, sorry... This is JMO, based on direct data, indirect data, and WS'ers' expertise expressed in Threads #1-3.

 

[fridaybaker]

I understand, but I have also noticed the word "naive" to describe Esther many times. It does give the benefit of the doubt in terms of her expecting strangers to provide for her as her "naive" way of making new temporary friends. It's just that I disagree that she was naive.

She's an Oxford educated woman in her late 30s who had enough financial savvy to essentially retire in her early 30s so she could travel the world and have fun adventures. There's nothing naive about that. I'm interpreting this more along the lines of pushing limits to see how far she could go. I see this as a woman who achieves a goal, so she refines the parameters and expectations for the next goal.

If they travel without food, what happens? If they stay on the mountain too late when a snow storm is blowing in, what happens? If she starts hiking the summit late in the day when everyone is heading home, what happens? If she hikes without enough food what happens? That's how I see her, not as a naive woman who didn't know better, or who believed that asking strangers for gifts was friendly, but as someone who defined her trip plan such that it would be more challenging than the previous trip.

Wow, Otto. you have described what's been bothering me for some time about this situation. One thing that bothers me in general, aside from this case, is the attempt to label a person "naive" who does something for which they receive negative press/attention. You are right: People make poor decisions all the time. It doesn't mean that they are naive. I've never had any impression that ED is naive.

Your description of her as more "pushing/pursuing her goals" in continually pushing the limits is an apt description, and in many instances, IMO, she does this without much regard for others. (Dan with a bowel illness and hungry all day; asking others for food, etc.)

I am afraid that in this instance, ED may have pushed herself too far.

And a note: We've debated the food situation/preparation thoroughly, but any way I look at it, she was extremely under-prepared in that department. Sometimes experience doesn't translate into expertise.

 

[RedHaus]

SBM for focus

But.......she would have phone contact shortly after passing the refuge but made no contact with anyone, or didn't make it that far. I thought cell contact was about 30 min onward from the refuge. Maybe I'm confused it wouldn't be difficult.

Actually @patCee, I think it was @jsoap who told us (based on he/she having hiked in that very area) that the more direct route from the Refuge de Vanesque towards Lac de la Montignette would NOT have cell service. So I believe that 'shortly after passing the refuge' idea pertains to going straight towards Hospice de France... I think!

 

[HongKongPhooey]

[QUOTE
And a note: We've debated the food situation/preparation thoroughly, but any way I look at it, she was extremely under-prepared in that department. Sometimes experience doesn't translate into expertise.[/QUOTE]

RSBM

She may well have been, based on the interview in the DM from the tuna-potato hiker she met weeks previously. That's when she allegedly had peppers and lettuce to eat.

Factually, we do not know for sure what she had with her on her last known hike so we can only really guess.

 

[Grouse]

I absolutely think people can run on less food than others. I don’t eat breakfast or lunch (no time, I work 12 hr days) and am perfectly fine until dinner. It’s no big deal to me.

Does your job demand physical effort or is it desk based? My job before I packed up work was mainly desk based and I could often get away with that (though maybe not to the same extreme as you, but I often skipped breakfast and had very light lunches). But hiking/climbing peaks no way! Without a solid breakfast to start me off (something like poached eggs on beans on toast is my preference) and then something substantial en route (on a day hike/climb a pack of sandwiches, or some pasta and/or a couple of scotch eggs to keep me going) it just doesn't work.

 

[patCee]

She's an Oxford educated woman in her late 30s who had enough financial savvy to essentially retire in her early 30s so she could travel the world and have fun adventures. There's nothing naive about that. I'm interpreting this more along the lines of pushing limits to see how far she could go. I see this as a woman who achieves a goal, so she refines the parameters and expectations for the next goal.

I feel the word 'goal' is generous as I see them drifting as a couple in a lifestyle that in some respects is without goals. Also the Truman Show comes to mind. ED seems good natured, caring and a bit childlike in the way she relates to people (food). I'm sure they would have ensured their vehicle was kept in good order mechanically. Other than that, they are leading a transient life with no real responsibilities or connection to anywhere or to anyone. They were successful academically but found real life too difficult.Academic life is sheltered to a large extent where others determine your goals.

How grounded are they in their thinking and decision making. Lots people choose this way of life, maybe not for 6 years , or at their ages. ED going off on month long hiking trips, alone - is that unusual in the hiking world? In this case jumping ahead of the French lockdown in order to maintain her freedom. How long for, if the lockdown goes on for the next few months?

I've known (2nd hand) of people living this way and even home schooling their children during their travels. Eventually returning and settling down to 'normal' lives. Something doesn't sit right here for me. Nothing terribly untoward as such, but this sense of drifting with no real goals. When your life consists of being on the road to new destinations with periods of hiking for years, is that enough. It feels like avoiding/ not coping with real life, not building anything.

DC insists there was no problems in their relationship and they do overall seem to be living in unison with their choices. I'm not sure that Laura's comments in the Daily |Mail re relationship problems are accurate. ED could have been describing the truth e.g. it's a break from each other (lockdown generates those feelings), and not being sure about when she's returning to DC, as in continually extending the time away. Exactly what has happened with continual extensions, apart from ED disappearing.

I realise none of this directly helps decipher what has happened to ED, but I sense that the rejection of 'normal' life is clear. It feels like an experiment rather than a strong sense of self with responsibilities and real life goals. It's what may have created a need for adventure, to push boundaries leading to tragedy.

 

[Grouse]

They were successful academically but found real life too difficult.Academic life is sheltered to a large extent where others determine your goals.

Maybe, but to be fair they didn't just stay within the sheltered world of academia, they worked very hard trying to make it in the real world, made some sacrifices, saved hard and then managed to get out and make that life on the road for 6 years a possibility.

Copy and paste from a post I made earlier , from --> About Us | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel

"Neither of us have ever really been particularly driven by material possessions, but we were both savers by nature and so anything spare went into repaying that mortgage. We also worked hard to earn extra where we could and began sacrificing holidays, meals out etc."​

 

[Puzzles]

I absolutely think people can run on less food than others. I don’t eat breakfast or lunch (no time, I work 12 hr days) and am perfectly fine until dinner. It’s no big deal to me.

Hi PNW, I too only eat one meal a day, in the evening. Retired now, I work long hours in the garden during the summer, digging and hauling, and year-round enjoy a daily brisk walk of at least one hour and many other physical activities. My work prior to retirement was both physically and mentally demanding.

For as many decades as I can remember, the morning begins with a cup of tea, and I have no appetite at all until the evenings. An exception is if I have a very late night, up until 3 or 4am. Then I'm hungry in the morning and will eat a breakfast.

I'm in my 80th year, and blessed with a strong and healthy body. My mind's not too shabby either – at least, from my perspective...

Nothing in this post has anything to do with how or why ED disappeared. I write simply to support your theory that some of us can manage well with what is now named intermittent fasting. That, and I'm a spot delighted to at last"meet" someone who has what others may deem a bizarre eating regime.

 

[Hatty]

3 entrees for a budget vegan dinner entree on a long-distance hike might look like:

Very light:
1. instant polenta, instant black beans, some dried tomatoes or single-serving salsa, chili powder, strips of peppers... Placed in ziploc. Reconstituted with boiling water at dinner.

Also very light:
2. instant mashed potatoes or Ramen, instant vegan gravy, olive oil, a chopped cooked carrot, some soy powder. A side of 2 T peanut butter. Reconstituted with boiling water.

Heavier: what the Lithuanian hiker took
3. Potatoes (you can precook); olive oil; a little baggie full of interesting things to throw on potatoes, e.g. dried chives.... and soy chopped in or bacos (some kind of protein). Cold or warmed up.

I'm hoping you can see the food thing in this case is not about money. There were choices happening here...

RickshawFan - don’t fancy your menu choices. Could I please take my Lindt truffles instead?!

 

[PNW]

Does your job demand physical effort or is it desk based? My job before I packed up work was mainly desk based and I could often get away with that (though maybe not to the same extreme as you, but I often skipped breakfast and had very light lunches). But hiking/climbing peaks no way! Without a solid breakfast to start me off (something like poached eggs on beans on toast is my preference) and then something substantial en route (on a day hike/climb a pack of sandwiches, or some pasta and/or a couple of scotch eggs to keep me going) it just doesn't work.

It’s a physical job. But it’s not climbing mountains! I think my body has gotten used to it. But I love food and look forward to dinner lol. Either way, I’m not sure we can make assumptions that Esther has/had disordered eating. She’d completed a long 1,000 mile hike just fine. I do find the reliance on strangers’ generosity kind of weird, if it was that and not a conversation starter.

 

[patCee]

Maybe, but to be fair they didn't just stay within the sheltered world of academia, they worked very hard trying to make it in the real world, made some sacrifices, saved hard and then managed to get out and make that life on the road for 6 years a possibility.

Copy and paste from a post I made earlier , from --> About Us | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel

"Neither of us have ever really been particularly driven by material possessions, but we were both savers by nature and so anything spare went into repaying that mortgage. We also worked hard to earn extra where we could and began sacrificing holidays, meals out etc."​

I'm in some agreement with you. Where I differ is their reasons for giving up their working lives. I can't find the info quickly, but I'm sure they described feeling seriously stressed by their working lives and the responsibilities they had. So many time demands. A business venture failed; DC became seriously ill. They'd bought several properties (business), mortgages. It all became too difficult with them both suffering from depression, and in addition ED suffered with ME. Phew! it feels exhausting just going over it.
When DC recovered they decided to give it all up and go on the road. So I understood it was a plan based on difficulties they were experiencing rather than a long term goal. I think they kept their flat as a rental to help pay for their new life. Bit of a saga but that's how I remember it.

 

[Grouse]

Hi PNW, I too only eat one meal a day, in the evening. Retired now, I work long hours in the garden during the summer, digging and hauling, and year-round enjoy a daily brisk walk of at least one hour and many other physical activities. My work prior to retirement was both physically and mentally demanding.

For as many decades as I can remember, the morning begins with a cup of tea, and I have no appetite at all until the evenings. An exception is if I have a very late night, up until 3 or 4am. Then I'm hungry in the morning and will eat a breakfast.

I'm in my 80th year, and blessed with a strong and healthy body. My mind's not too shabby either – at least, from my perspective...

Nothing in this post has anything to do with how or why ED disappeared. I write simply to support your theory that some of us can manage well with what is now named intermittent fasting. That, and I'm a spot delighted to at last"meet" someone who has what others may deem a bizarre eating regime.

It’s a physical job. But it’s not climbing mountains! I think my body has gotten used to it. But I love food and look forward to dinner lol. Either way, I’m not sure we can make assumptions that Esther has/had disordered eating. She’d completed a long 1,000 mile hike just fine. I do find the reliance on strangers’ generosity kind of weird, if it was that and not a conversation starter.

Fair play, and good luck to you both

 

[CoverMeCagney]

So... if Esther was a bit peckish, how does that change the story?

 

[ZaZara]

Another two cents of mine about the lettuce and the pepper ~these items are irking me to the point that this evening, when I was in the supermarket I picked an avocado because of its nutritional value.

In thread 1 we discussed a video that ED posted about a bicycle trip that she had started on without food or phone and how she was helped by people she met, and returned home safely.

This is what I wrote at the time:

Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

I watched the video again. At the end, Esther is very clear in her intentions:

She will help others the next time, similar to the support she has received when she needed it.

At no point in time did she leave on the bicycle trip of a few hours last May with the intention to receive the help and food of strangers. She is sharing her joy that it happened that way and her joy that she was able to ask help for herself, and receive help from others.
For her, this was clearly a learning experience, and not a part of her personality.

Sometimes, people only learn half of the lesson, namely that you can do whatever because others will sort it out for you. That is not according to the spirit of the mountains. You cannot expect others to carry your food for you, you blankets, your water. It is a bonus when others help you, and many will do so if they feel your need is genuine. It isn't genuine when you plan on it beforehand.

Esther did get the message and its meaning: I will help others like I was helped.


I take it back except the first paragraph and the last but one. I was being far too optimistic.

There was no way that Esther would be able to help others with food or something fresh, unless the offer of a leaf of lettuce would have made the difference of course. But IMO she was not prepared to do that at all. There is nothing to indicate that she was going to help others the way she was helped. She might have offered fruit every now and then. Instead her begging for food seems to have continued.

There is no doubt in my mind that she meant what she said the moment she spoke about helping others the way she was helped, but as so often happens, the intention did not last in real life. Only in the video and it is precisely the kind of thing people will say to show how spiritual they are, or connected with nature or whatever we say when we say The Right Things That Are Expected Of Us.

The real life, the real person, can be very different from what you see on the blog.

 

[Hatty]

SBM for focus

But.......she would have phone contact shortly after passing the refuge but made no contact with anyone, or didn't make it that far. I thought cell contact was about 30 min onward from the refuge. Maybe I'm confused it wouldn't be difficult.

No, I think you’re right. The dossier includes a photo showing phone signal in the area and she would have had signal shortly after leaving the Refuge de Vénasque.

 

[Grouse]

I'm in some agreement with you. Where I differ is their reasons for giving up their working lives. I can't find the info quickly, but I'm sure they described feeling seriously stressed by their working lives and the responsibilities they had. So many time demands. A business venture failed; DC became seriously ill. They'd bought several properties (business), mortgages. It all became too difficult with them both suffering from depression, and in addition ED suffered with ME. Phew! it feels exhausting just going over it.
When DC recovered they decided to give it all up and go on the road. So I understood it was a plan based on difficulties they were experiencing rather than a long term goal. I think they kept their flat as a rental to help pay for their new life. Bit of a saga but that's how I remember it.

Yes that's pretty much what I read I think. They had a hard time of it and it wasn't for them, but they managed to rescue the situation and get themselves into the position to fund life they wanted.