Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[RickshawFan]

RickshawFan, I found the discrepancy in potable water availability at the Refuge de V, significant too. Here is a snip of the relevant statement from page 12 of DC's dossier. If the statement is true, it certainly diminishes the odds that ED made a risky venture down to one of the small lakes at the refuge for water to filter:
View attachment 279356

Source: https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

That was my sense, too, @RedHaus , of that location. The rubble-y stream crosses the trail right near the refuge. You'd want to put that water through a filter, but it was close by. I don't think ED had capacity to get more than 2 L of water at a go, so she will have needed to refill several times a day along the way, if she was going to continue on her journey.
What caught my attention was that she asked for fruit on the Pic. That seemed very odd to do, unless you needed liquid because you were out of water or soon would be. If you just like fruit, you bring it with your supplies from town, you don't ask a stranger for it. It seems to me, she needed some, or why would she ask?

 

[RickshawFan]

If as is likely ED stayed at the refuge I'm guessing the police will know whether or not she made a payment prior to arriving there. It wouldn't be possible on arrival as there is no cell connection.

I'm giggling, 'cos there's always cash..... We've just got so used to using cards for everything lol.
Opposite to you, I actually assumed payment was in cash; I didn't even think of using a credit card there.

 

[10ofRods]

Can someone point me to the recent document in French? I'd love to look at it.

 

[RickshawFan]

I didn't know the gendarmerie mentioned that. Have to say I've felt surprised all along that he was allowed to do that. Joining the search party is one thing but going off alone could interfere with the offical search it seems to me, as you say some evidence of ED could be spoiled.

I can't find the follow up report by the gendarmerie saying they'd ended the search, but the tone on that one suggested to me they felt offended at suggestions they didn't know what they were doing. It wasn't clear who would be suggesting that. They made quite clear they were in charge.
Backcountry SAR do NOT like people independently searching. This comes up a lot. Independent searchers can put SAR folks at risk, draw away their resources, and muddy the waters in what has to be done very methodically to be effective.

 

[RickshawFan]

Can someone point me to the recent document in French? I'd love to look at it.

I guessed you would @10ofRods ! IIRC, there were 2: one when the search first started, and another when they said they were winding up. I'm guessing they're in Thread #1, but I couldn't find them right off the bat.
IME the French can have a certain way of using words that sounds like they are speaking through clenched teeth. It's a matter of tone and effect, not vocabulary, so it doesn't show up well in a translation.

 

[RickshawFan]

snipped for focus

You know, CoverMeCagney, I still wonder if ED just decided to abort her plan to hike the "loop" after she spoke with DC or as she descended from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde. Those last few electronic interactions ED had with DC, per DC's dossier, IMO spoke of some reluctance from ED. She may not have wanted to proceed with her plans after all - perhaps she was ambivalent for some reason and decided to abort.

IMO there could be five possible reasons why that could happen:

1. She missed Dan so much, she just decided to surprise him with an early return - she decided she'd had enough and just wanted to get back 'home'
2. She felt the temperature dropping quickly and at 4:40pm on 22/11 the dark and dim looking valley and refuge beyond the Port de Vanesque was not inviting
3. She did not feel optimally well (e.g. Covid symptoms, menstrual cramps, fatigued, insatiable hunger or thirst, food poisoning, depressed, etc.)
4. She dropped her cell phone at the Pic de S summit and it was broken or was not safely retrievable and she decided it was unsafe to proceed with her hiking plans
5. She just wanted to get back to her van or just wanted to get somewhere else entirely - back to the possible voluntary disappearance idea perhaps

Of course if she did abort her intended plans and descended from the summit at 4:10pm on 22/11, then she would have likely stayed overnight at the at the Cabane de la Besurtas (where she stayed 21/11), bivouaced somewhere on her route to Banasque, tried to hike back to her van in the dark (with her headlamps) and/or hitched a ride.

Since ED disappeared without a trace, this scenario falls apart a bit when you consider she had a cell phone. But she might not have used the cell phone with reasons 1, 4 or 5 outlined above. That said, hiking down to Banasque in the dark or hitching a ride that night could have been her downfall, as we have discussed before.

Just trying to keep the options open...

I could definitely see this happening. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she changed her mind about her plan, but maybe felt like she was somehow "chickening out", and didn't want to tell Dan.
And I could totally see that happening at the top of the Pic. It was a clear day. There were clear trails in the valleys below, hither and yon. The temptation to do something other than what you planned would be right at your feet. If it were me, and I'd seen that view from the Pic, I think I would have hiked down to the Hospice and back and called it good. It looks quite fun and safe. I wouldn't have had more fun if I'd taken on something more complicated and challenging, so I would have skipped it. Then, I could hang out in my tent outside the Hospice and maybe horn in on their wifi.

And, if she really wanted to do the Port de Glère loop, why didn't she start into it from the Pic on the 21st? She'd be well on her way on the 22nd, and she'd have avoided the possibility the weather front could come in early and surprise her. I totally don't get this.

 

[otto]

I could definitely see this happening. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she changed her mind about her plan, but maybe felt like she was somehow "chickening out", and didn't want to tell Dan.
And I could totally see that happening at the top of the Pic. It was a clear day. There were clear trails in the valleys below, hither and yon. The temptation to do something other than what you planned would be right at your feet. If it were me, and I'd seen that view from the Pic, I think I would have hiked down to the Hospice and back and called it good. It looks quite fun and safe. I wouldn't have had more fun if I'd taken on something more complicated and challenging, so I would have skipped it. Then, I could hang out in my tent outside the Hospice and maybe horn in on their wifi.

And, if she really wanted to do the Port de Glère loop, why didn't she start into it from the Pic on the 21st? She'd be well on her way on the 22nd, and she'd have avoided the possibility the weather front could come in early and surprise her. I totally don't get this.

BBM

There's no trail from the summit to the Port de Glere without descending to the Hospice de Benasque.

Regarding starting into the hike from the summit to the Port de Glere, what do you mean? That she should have hiked to the refuge on the 21st?



Le Port de Venasque

 

[patCee]

I'm giggling, 'cos there's always cash..... We've just got so used to using cards for everything lol.
Opposite to you, I actually assumed payment was in cash; I didn't even think of using a credit card there.

I thought of a card payment as it didn't seem likely there would be a means of leaving cash at the refuge. Myself, I don't keep card details on my phone, as I worry about losing it. If set on my plan I'd have paid in advance. Nowadays many (younger) just use their phones for everything, even at the supermarket checkout.

 

[otto]

I thought of a card payment as it didn't seem likely there would be a means of leaving cash at the refuge. Myself, I don't keep card details on my phone, as I worry about losing it. If set on my plan I'd have paid in advance. Nowadays many (younger) just use their phones for everything, even at the supermarket checkout.

There's online booking option at the refuge. Perhaps it's possible pre-pay at the time of booking.

 

[Hatty]

In my last post, I mentioned the last few electronic interactions between ED and DC. I interpreted the recounting of those interactions in DC's dossier (p.7) as showing some reluctance on the part of ED. Her 16:04 text seems to say 'I am off'... but then at 16:06 she says she is 'still in the same area', and again is taking off. And further, it is unclear why there was a 16:07 video chat between them after what appeared to be a final 'sign-off' by ED via text just before. Was ED reluctant to go?

16:04: “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”

16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx” “Love you *advertiser censored*”

16:07 – Video Call with Dan lasting for 1:36

I know DC has recalled that last video call as being all smiles and love. But it would be very helpful to know what they talked about in more detail to get at state of minds. Did ED express any ambivalence? Was she anxious about her last solo trek? How was she feeling physically, emotionally? Did she mention the possibility of aborting?

Anyone else have the same reaction?

Source: https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

Yes, I had that reaction too Redhaus. I also recall ED’s previous comments when she decided to go back to her van with the hiker on 19th November. She favoured descending over spending the night at a refuge because she was going to arrive there quite early and would be kicking her heels a bit I seem to recall. She liked the idea of yoga and warmth etc.

On 22nd November, she would have arrived at The Refuge Vénasque around 5pm- 5.30pm.Without any company that’s perhaps quite a long time to spend an evening and night IMO. It doesn’t look particularly welcoming to me (!). She may have decided she had time to descend safely and hitch back to the van.

She wouldn’t have had any signal at this time if she got as far as the Refuge so wouldn’t have been able to tell DC.

Another scenario I’ve considered is that if she was hitching in the dark, did she get hit by a vehicle......

 

[Hatty]

That was my sense, too, @RedHaus , of that location. The rubble-y stream crosses the trail right near the refuge. You'd want to put that water through a filter, but it was close by. I don't think ED had capacity to get more than 2 L of water at a go, so she will have needed to refill several times a day along the way, if she was going to continue on her journey.
What caught my attention was that she asked for fruit on the Pic. That seemed very odd to do, unless you needed liquid because you were out of water or soon would be. If you just like fruit, you bring it with your supplies from town, you don't ask a stranger for it. It seems to me, she needed some, or why would she ask?

Reference the fruit - See m) on page 20 of DC’s information pack. It says that if ED felt she had a good rapport with someone she would sometimes ask them for fruit. This was not “abnormal behaviour for Esther”.

Still seems odd to me!

 

[Hatty]

There's online booking option at the refuge. Perhaps it's possible pre-pay at the time of booking.

In one of her text messages to DC, Esther comments she “hopes the refuge has a winter room”.

That sounds as though she wouldn’t have pre-paid and potentially had not looked at the Refuge’s website/did not know exactly what facilities would be available.

 

[PeggyHenry]

I’m probably not convinced the text messages etc were written by Esther!
If a third party is involved then I assume they did their best to cover up and manipulate things to hide involvement. if I assume Esther had an accident and fell / hurt herself then of course the content of phone usage is believable. If I assume that a third party is involved then it is not. Depends which way you go...
if she encountered anyone at the intended refuge stay on 22nd and things turned bad.. then her presence there would have possibly been erased.
The dossier is a distraction ... a welcome one since no other news is forthcoming but cannot be assumed to be totally factual no matter who wrote it. It has to be seen as one persons account. In a police investigation the police are going to view that document with certain scepticism.

 

[Hatty]

I’m probably not convinced the text messages etc were written by Esther!
If a third party is involved then I assume they did their best to cover up and manipulate things to hide involvement. if I assume Esther had an accident and fell / hurt herself then of course the content of phone usage is believable. If I assume that a third party is involved then it is not. Depends which way you go...
if she encountered anyone at the intended refuge stay on 22nd and things turned bad.. then her presence there would have possibly been erased.
The dossier is a distraction ... a welcome one since no other news is forthcoming but cannot be assumed to be totally factual no matter who wrote it. It has to be seen as one persons account. In a police investigation the police are going to view that document with certain scepticism.

According to LBT Global, the dossier was prepared by DC and is clearly endorsed by them. I personally do not doubt DC’s integrity.

https://www.lbt.global/media-releas...PluTrEsGNeO-YUQ2D3R8LZXUGw2lvFyngkWLenB-1gl-s

 

[patCee]

I might be wrong but I’m sure I read somewhere that the info document has been written by DC himself...

It is written in the 3rd person though, referring to 'DC' rather than 'I'. Unless he chose to write in that style. It creates a sense of detachment of him from the information really. Strange way to write in the circumstances if he wrote it himself. IMO

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
I’m probably not convinced the text messages etc were written by Esther!
.

But the text messages were just before, not after, the video call, so unlikely to have been made by someone else.

 

[Recliner]

Sure, but why are we rejecting information that is clearly stated on the website for the Refuge de Venasque? Is there a valid, authored link somewhere with information that clearly contradicts information that is stated on the landing page of the refuge website?
I wouldn't reject any information.
My point was that, regardless of any stated rules, for pracical purposes it could be possible to spend a night alone at a refuge out of season and no one would know.
I really have no strong views one way or the other, I'm just trying to paint a picture of what the refuges can be like for those on this board who aren't familiar with them.

 

[patCee]

It is written in the 3rd person though, referring to 'DC' rather than 'I'. Unless he chose to write in that style. It creates a sense of detachment of him from the information really. Strange way to write in the circumstances if he wrote it himself. IMO

"Esther’s partner 'Dan' was in close communication with both the French and Spanish search teams" - refers to ''Dan' instead of 'Esther and 'me'
4/10 – 14/10 – Esther and Dan travelling in France together in motorhome". -refers to 'Dan' instead of Esther and 'me' or 'I'.
' Their longest day of hiking was 40 kilometres with +3000 metres of ascent'. Says 'their' instead of 'our'.

So no I don't think it was written by DC. Probably by LBT in discussion with DC. Sorry to labour the point but if it was dictated it might not be 100% accurate in places. Does it matter? Maybe.

 

[Hexe]

In one of her text messages to DC, Esther comments she “hopes the refuge has a winter room”.

That sounds as though she wouldn’t have pre-paid and potentially had not looked at the Refuge’s website/did not know exactly what facilities would be available.

That quite contradicts all the claims about Esther's responsibility and risk avoidance. A shelter is essential in the mountains where the weather can change suddenly to the worse, especially at the end of November. Checking your shelter options before you hit the trail is something you absolutely should do. You don't want to end up bivouacing or in a tent during a snow storm, for example.

 

[Quietey]

But the text messages were just before, not after, the video call, so unlikely to have been made by someone else.

The video call was relatively brief and could have been made with Esther under force/threat. Plus we don't know the content of that call. If reports are accurate, DC leans strongly towards involvement of someone else. We've discussed why he might believe this. Maybe the content of the call instilled this belief in him.