Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

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PNW said:
I absolutely think people can run on less food than others. I don’t eat breakfast or lunch (no time, I work 12 hr days) and am perfectly fine until dinner. It’s no big deal to me.
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That's because almost everyone can go 12 hours without refueling (and in many cultures, people do exactly that).

But if you were walking cross country, with elevation gains of 1400-3000 feet (and going back down) each day, you'd find it rather different than just being at work (unless you walk 8-10 miles of mountainous terrain per day at work). Most of us burn around 1700-2400 calories a day, with postal workers burning more like 3500 with all their walking.

Hiking in mountainous terrain gets most people to 4000 calories in a day with 6 hours of walking. 6000+ calories is not unheard of for some through hikers to need daily.

THe fact that it's " no big deal " when our brains start to lack protein (or oxygen) is part of the problem. With both protein starvation and drops in oxygen, the sufferer may simply not notice. But activity in the brain is affected, nevertheless.

One effect of protein malnutrition is that a person does lose their sense of hunger (this is true after about 12 hours of fasting for some people, as well - and almost everyone who fasts regularly has a blunted sense of hunger).

Are you saying that y0u go 24 hours without eating, or is the 12 hours in between breakfast and dinner (because frankly, that's pretty normal and most people's brains would be fine with that). 24 hours without protein though, and study after study shows that while people feel "perfectly fine" their reaction times to various stimuli get slower and their thinking begins to show more errors. IOW, you wouldn't want to take a very hard examination after 24 hours without protein..,
 
Grouse said:
Yes that's pretty much what I read I think. They had a hard time of it and it wasn't for them, but they managed to rescue the situation and get themselves into the position to fund life they wanted.
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It's such a massive dream for some people. I have a friend working towards it for her much later retirement. Such a shame it has probably ended in tragedy for Dan and Esther.
 
CoverMeCagney said:
So... if Esther was a bit peckish, how does that change the story?
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I love that expression (peckish) and now that I know it, I use it all the time. It does indeed describe the slight hunger that can come with intermittent fasting (or a very low calorie diet). Some people never feel famished, they just get...peckish.

I guess everyone is different, but some of the most stupid or careless things I've done were related to poor diet on my part. The macro elements of the diet need to be studied to get a real idea of what Esther might have experienced, but in the classroom, I can almost always predict which students didn't eat breakfast. They are just so much slower at getting their notebooks at the ready, following instructions, and often lapse into a vacant expression. I ask about breakfast frequently and even have them keep food diaries. It's not uncommon for some students to have avoided protein altogether for 24 hours. In even the simplest kind of quiz (put your name at the top right hand corner of the paper and then copy down what I am writing on the board), the protein-malnourished will do poorly as a group.

Lack of electrolytes will make it even worse. Together, these two issues can make people clumsy and slow reactions to new situations.

Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack at an early age due to excessive dieting (lack of caloric intake and specifically protein - the heart is made of mostly protein and when the body is in protein deficit, it will begin to break down all muscle for the protein - including the heart). That's probably what happened to Jim Fixx as well.

If Esther had purchased a package of nuts (instead of wanting chia seeds, for example), I'd feel better about the situation. The nuts would require adequate water to fully process the protein, however.

In places where people are literally starving (no food for several days), drinking infusions or teas can really help with the sensation of hunger (it will eventually go away on its own for most). But again, people are designed to have protein about every 12 hours or so. At 24 hours, the speed at which neurons can process information may be affected. Chronic protein malnutrition makes learning new things or reacting to new situations far more difficult for the brain. IQ test results can vary as a result of diet by as much as 10-20 points...just as a measurement of how the brain is affected (other kinds of tests, such as driving reaction tests show similar deficits).

Map-reading skills and overall judgment could surely have been affected in Esther's case (although remember, the French lady gave her a galette with almond paste...galettes typically have carbs...depending on recipe, they may not have much or any protein. The almond paste would have had some (I envision it being a couple of tablespoons of almond paste - so maybe 2-4g of protein? not much...the rest would be sugar/carbs).
 
10ofRods said:
I love that expression (peckish) and now that I know it, I use it all the time. It does indeed describe the slight hunger that can come with intermittent fasting (or a very low calorie diet). Some people never feel famished, they just get...peckish.

I guess everyone is different, but some of the most stupid or careless things I've done were related to poor diet on my part. The macro elements of the diet need to be studied to get a real idea of what Esther might have experienced, but in the classroom, I can almost always predict which students didn't eat breakfast. They are just so much slower at getting their notebooks at the ready, following instructions, and often lapse into a vacant expression. I ask about breakfast frequently and even have them keep food diaries. It's not uncommon for some students to have avoided protein altogether for 24 hours. In even the simplest kind of quiz (put your name at the top right hand corner of the paper and then copy down what I am writing on the board), the protein-malnourished will do poorly as a group.

Lack of electrolytes will make it even worse. Together, these two issues can make people clumsy and slow reactions to new situations.

Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack at an early age due to excessive dieting (lack of caloric intake and specifically protein - the heart is made of mostly protein and when the body is in protein deficit, it will begin to break down all muscle for the protein - including the heart). That's probably what happened to Jim Fixx as well.

If Esther had purchased a package of nuts (instead of wanting chia seeds, for example), I'd feel better about the situation. The nuts would require adequate water to fully process the protein, however.

In places where people are literally starving (no food for several days), drinking infusions or teas can really help with the sensation of hunger (it will eventually go away on its own for most). But again, people are designed to have protein about every 12 hours or so. At 24 hours, the speed at which neurons can process information may be affected. Chronic protein malnutrition makes learning new things or reacting to new situations far more difficult for the brain. IQ test results can vary as a result of diet by as much as 10-20 points...just as a measurement of how the brain is affected (other kinds of tests, such as driving reaction tests show similar deficits).

Map-reading skills and overall judgment could surely have been affected in Esther's case (although remember, the French lady gave her a galette with almond paste...galettes typically have carbs...depending on recipe, they may not have much or any protein. The almond paste would have had some (I envision it being a couple of tablespoons of almond paste - so maybe 2-4g of protein? not much...the rest would be sugar/carbs).
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As always, learning with your good self thank you. And making a mental note to have eggs for breakfast for my heavy work day tomorrow.

Would the cold make a difference?

What I'm trying to get my head round, is if she had hiked for so long, why would there potentially be a problem at this point?
 
HongKongPhooey said:
As always, learning with your good self thank you. And making a mental note to have eggs for breakfast for my heavy work day tomorrow.

Would the cold make a difference?

What I'm trying to get my head round, is if she had hiked for so long, why would there potentially be a problem at this point?
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Yes - your body burns more calories when it's trying to keep warm. And we...chubbier people...have more insulation, so probably burn fewer calories in this process. That's why Inuit (Eskimo) people have evolved over time to have more body fat around their mid-sections than people from more tropical climates.

So my theory is that Esther may have been on the verge of cognitive difficulty, perhaps for the entire time she was in the region, then with increasingly weak decision making. We also know that people who are alone in the wilderness make poorer decisions. In such circumstances, it's really important to consider pro's and con's with every decision, and talking things over with another human really helps.

Signs of cognitive deficits in hiking can include under- or over-estimating distances to jump or step, deficits in peripheral vision (resulting in not noticing rocks on the path, turned ankles, etc). I've seen people collapse on trails (Grand Canyon NP), clearly having over-estimated how fast and how far they could go in heat. Cold is more unfamiliar to me, but I do know that heat-generation in the body burns calories (and in hypothermia, people actually stop shivering and start to feel warmer as they are slowly dying of the cold).
 
Esther was feeling sufficiently ok to get to the summit of Pic and to make her phone call and take her selfie. She looks in good health in the photo .. positively thriving . But I accept that a photo may be misleading.
Vigo wasn’t worried about her except for the fact he found it odd she was ascending so late in the day. If she had been affected by a lack of food I would have thought this would be reflected in her phone call with Dan.
Her Mother and Dan have not mentioned any potential worries about her health, nutrition, preparedness and these are the people that talked frequently with her.
Esther has been hiking for 6 years plus and prior to that was some sort of personal fitness trainer.. I think she must have known her own body really well.
However, issues with food are apparent but I’m not sure we are all agreed on what forms the basis for these issues.
 
CoverMeCagney said:
If she fell, and I agree that lack of food can affect physical judgement, we will never know if it’s because she was hungry.
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I guess we all define knowledge differently. But if it turns out to be true that she had so little food, then I would include that in any forensic write-up. Also, longterm protein deficiency shows up in several places in an autopsy, including bone lamination. I don't expect that to happen (a full forensic autopsy) if a body is found and there are no signs of foul play).

I'm suggesting that from what we know, it's possible that she was very low on energy, possibly mainly mental energy. If she was out at night using a headlamp, that's a challenging task...

My main point is that many a hiker who collapses on trail or can't hike out as planned..looks really healthy right beforehand. I looked just fine right up until the moment I fainted that one time...felt fine too. Every semester, students pass out in the gym (same basic reasons: nutrition or fluids, heart skips a few beats, down they go...) It's multiple students each semester (all of them looking vibrantly healthy.

The students think it's funny and a badge of honor, although a few regret the bumps on their heads or the occasional bad bruise...when it happens to someone else, they laugh when they speak about it. It's kind of a badge of honor that one has "gone hard."

It's never a good thing to pass out...not really. People teach themselves to ignore the signs of impending syncope, but it can also happen without much warning.
 
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10ofRods said:
I guess we all define knowledge differently. But if it turns out to be true that she had so little food, then I would include that in any forensic write-up. Also, longterm protein deficiency shows up in several places in an autopsy, including bone lamination. I don't expect that to happen (a full forensic autopsy) if a body is found and there are no signs of foul play).

I'm suggesting that from what we know, it's possible that she was very low on energy, possibly mainly mental energy. If she was out at night using a headlamp, that's a challenging task...

My main point is that many a hiker who collapses on trail or can't hike out as planned..looks really healthy right beforehand. I looked just fine right up until the moment I fainted that one time...felt fine too.
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It’s all true, I’m not disagreeing with any of it. But none of it helps to find her.

She might have been hungry
She might have been ill
She might have slipped on gravel
She might have tripped over her shoelace

Question is, where?
 
So it's seems there is the possibility/evidence that ED may not have given enough attention to her bodies nutrition at a time when her sound judgement was badly needed. That sadly her decision making and/or physical prowess could have been adversely affected leading to an tragic accident in circumstances where, being alone, she was unable to call for help.

DC spoke of his awareness ED had suffered an accident, though he sounded more sceptical about this than other possibilities IMO. He believed that ED was fit enough and mentally able to manage the terrain without too much difficulty having explored the area himself. Having spent so much time together hiking it does seem his assessment of EDs abilities could be accurate. He will be aware that accidents do happen to those who are very fit and able. His judgement must be taken seriously because the alternatives are just as tragic, so not just down to a natural need for her to be OK somewhere.

However if there has been an accident, in answer to where, it does seem that the knowledgeable map references by people on here have made good educated judgements about possible sites ED could be. Impressive in my view.
 
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CoverMeCagney said:
It’s all true, I’m not disagreeing with any of it. But none of it helps to find her.

She might have been hungry
She might have been ill
She might have slipped on gravel
She might have tripped over her shoelace

Question is, where?
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Covermecagney I’m always keen to know your opinion!

I’ve thought about all the suggested scenarios hypothermia during her sleep, hitchhike gone wrong, suicide, abduction by hunters. Any are possible but I still think the most plausible scenario is she fell, but because they didn’t find her during the initial search I think she’s probably in water. I think her lack of food and relationship problems aren’t the reason she fell but they might have contributed to her not thinking properly on route. So exactly, the question is where, and what makes the most sense to me is that she did a smaller than planned loop to the Port de la Glere by hiking up through Col de la Montagnette and by passed the lac de la Montagnette. This is where I think the accident happened. This area is a route on the maps but it’s supposedly much more quiet which would explain why nobody else seen her and it seems to be out of phone signal range from the dossier so she would never had a chance to tell anyone of her change of route. It’s also described online as hard to see the paths and even dangerous. The lac de la Montagnette looks fairly small but if you look at tagged places on Instagram it’s actually a very big body of water with lots of rocks around the edges which you could easily fall off and these would have been icy in the morning and evening in November. Anyway that’s my bet as to what happened. She simply fell into freezing water on her route, sank and now it’s frozen.
 
From reviewing comments and blog entries, it seems as if they've drunk the cool aid, trying to live free like hippies without planning or eating, yet expected others to provide food and hitching lifts, pretending to be poor bohemians wanting to relive student days by not having to pay for stuff, this despite having sold a flat in 2016(July 13, 2016 blog entry), renting out a house that is fully paid off and marketing their stories to anyone and everyone they meet. It's cool that they've had adventures, just seems some of the behaviour induced by the hiking trip has led to the current situation of not regular checking phones/hiking light by not eating/stranger openness hitching lifts/public announcements of whereabouts on social media (publishing location) etc all seems somehow to have contributed to any one of the scenarios. The best possible scenarios of being kidnapped seems v unlikely as she's a strong girl and careful of what food/drink goes in body so just can't imagine a chance event like this. If voluntary, not much cash on person, card not used, lose all contacts and life savings/possessions, to go where... Can a person she met encourage a complete life turnaround for her to voluntarily disappear. Seems a tragic accident imo.
 
HongKongPhooey said:
Also, in the second para he is making the point that she asked the other hiker for food at the beginning of a four day hike. In other words, at that point she would not have been malnourished or impaired in any way.
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Snipped for focus.
That would mean she wasn't carrying enough food in her pack, and she's only a day into her trip.
 
HongKongPhooey said:
The point about buying food from refuges is in the dossier regarding her disappearance. I cant see the relevance either, but it seems it has been included in response to claims that she asked for food due to being badly prepared.
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Snipped for focus.

I get it. You were presenting the dossier's point of view and not your own.

The problem with the theory there.... ED will have learned from the Refuge a few days before, where she hung out with the Lithuanian woman, that Refuges weren't supplying food.

In addition, due to COVID, she wasn't supposed to be AT ANY Refuge in France. It would be entirely predictable that there was no food there.
 
RickshawFan said:
Snipped for focus.
That would mean she wasn't carrying enough food in her pack, and she's only a day into her trip.
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Or, much more likely, she only had dried food, knew she wouldn’t have chance to cook it for a couple of hours, and just fancied something fresh if the opportunity arose.

“Nice to meet you both, don’t suppose you’ve got a bit of fruit left over have you, power me up this hill lol”
 
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