Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[Normal Norm]

I feel the word 'goal' is generous as I see them drifting as a couple in a lifestyle that in some respects is without goals.

... Nothing terribly untoward as such, but this sense of drifting with no real goals.

... It's what may have created a need for adventure, to push boundaries leading to tragedy.

SBM for focus

I couldn't agree more with this. I think their 6-year "adventure" has turned into a rather vacuous existence, and I feel that Esther has compensated for her lack of social and intellectual stimulation by setting herself physical challenges. Success in these gives her the sense of accomplishment she is unable to achieve elsewhere in her life. Like you, I realise none of this directly helps identify what has happened to Esther.

 

[patCee]

Something that bothers me a bit about the taking a break thing. Its not particularly an English term. Its an Americanism which came over with Friends I think! So its been here for a while and people no doubt do use it but I think more common would be having a breather, not together at the moment, having some time out..

It could just be the witness presented it that way, just slightly grates on me.

What do my fellow Englanders think?

It's such an ambiguous phrase that could mean so many different things depending upon the context. 'I need to take a break' is a common expression in the UK in my experience. During lockdown I feel I'm 'taking a break' if I leave the house on my own for an hour. Likewise if I leave with my other half to walk for an hour or so. Doing boring things like cleaning the house, I might say 'I'm taking a break' and put the kettle on. What did ED mean by a 'taking a break' when she was in daily contact with DC, albeit minimal to conserve battery? Just being free to hike the Pyrenees for a time?

Also re ED not knowing when she was going back. She clearly didn't as she extended her 'freedom' (from an original 2 weeks) on impulse several times. Doesn't mean she was thinking of never returning to DC.
Equally it could mean something different and she was thinking about separating permanently from DC and that seems to be implied from the news report. I'm not convinced though because if she was talking about permanent 'separation', as such an intimate conversation I doubt Laura would have just said 'oh! and got on with eating etc. There likely would have been a continued conversation about feelings/reasons etc that I'm sure Laura would have repeated to the police.

 

[patCee]

DBM

 

[Hexe]

Maybe she liked to try something different and therefore would ask for food. I don’t see how we can make the leap that she was starving.

It's not that much of a leap, considering that Esther had a history of not taking adequate food supplies and then asking strangers for something to eat.

Another thing: you should not treat other hikers as your own walking pantry and ask them for food, only because you want something else than what you carry. Each hiker carries enough food to make themselves safe on the trail. By taking a part of their supplies from them you diminish their security. Exchanging food is okay, asking for food without any reciprocity is just plain selfish and a big no-no on the trail.

 

[Hexe]

I can totally imagine it might be expensive to eat vegan in Europe. However, you can easily eat vegan cheap cheap on the trail, with items that don't have a specifically vegan label. The Lithuanian woman brought potatoes. Genius. Other hikers use Ramen. Then there are the three entrees I outlined above, which are hiking staples (in England, you can even buy much of that in bulk, so you just buy the amount you need). Peanut butter. Fig Newtons. Homemade granola bars. Soy salad. Herbs and bits and pieces to make a cup of nourishing hot soup-ish drink. A handful of croutons to throw on top. Pre-cooked carrots.
It takes pre-planning and creativity, but really, this is typical overnight hiker food, as meat is more difficult to deal with.

Esther was in Spain. In Spain, the country of cheapo olives and olive oil, a wonderful, calorical addition to any diet. And bread. Tons of delish bread, Spaniards love their bread.

 

[Hexe]

I agree CMC. As I mentioned up thread, IF she was malnourished IMO it means she could have either.

1. Fallen in a lake.
2. Become disoriented and gone off track and died somewhere that hasn’t been searched.
3. Got so hungry she’s tried to get back to the van.

Or to get somewhere she could buy food. Bagneres de Luchon or Benasque, whichever was closer for her at the moment.

 

[Grouse]

Esther was feeling sufficiently ok to get to the summit of Pic and to make her phone call and take her selfie. She looks in good health in the photo .. positively thriving . But I accept that a photo may be misleading.
Vigo wasn’t worried about her except for the fact he found it odd she was ascending so late in the day. If she had been affected by a lack of food I would have thought this would be reflected in her phone call with Dan.
Her Mother and Dan have not mentioned any potential worries about her health, nutrition, preparedness and these are the people that talked frequently with her.
Esther has been hiking for 6 years plus and prior to that was some sort of personal fitness trainer.. I think she must have known her own body really well.
However, issues with food are apparent but I’m not sure we are all agreed on what forms the basis for these issues.

I've been of that general opinion through most of this thread, but the concerns of the Lithuanian companion, and the description of the food ED took for that hike, have changed my mind.

 

[Grouse]

Also, we haven't actually heard from Esther. Its from a third party. I dont for one minute think the third party made it up but its possibly open to interpretation.

Something that bothers me a bit about the taking a break thing. Its not particularly an English term. Its an Americanism which came over with Friends I think! So its been here for a while and people no doubt do use it but I think more common would be having a breather, not together at the moment, having some time out..

It could just be the witness presented it that way, just slightly grates on me.

What do my fellow Englanders think?

Yes I said something similar upthread that it could have been a misunderstanding. A break to me would imply exactly what we are told ED was doing rather than a trial separation type thing.

However, that said, it seems from the quotes (if they have not been translated from another language, and I don't get the impression that they have) that LA's English was excellent. So with that, and the fact they spent almost 24 hours in each other's company, I now think there might be something in this.

But you're right it is from a third party.

 

[Grouse]

Surely that can't be the map she used while she was en route? That looks like it's from a guide book. It's maybe for planning, but not for a trip: there's not enough detail, and it would be waaaaay to easy to get lost.

Think you're right, the dossier says "For navigation Esther was carrying a physical map of the area which she had also photographed with her phone as a backup. " and later "10:08 –Sends Dan photographs of her map to specify the area she will be hiking in".

That wording of the second quote implies to me that DC had a map of the general area she would be in, but not necessarily with details of the actual route. As she was know to change her plans I doubt she would have actually had time (or battery) to plot out the route on the map using an app before sending it. Sounds like it was the photo of the physical map.

 

[Tortoise]

Think you're right, the dossier says "For navigation Esther was carrying a physical map of the area which she had also photographed with her phone as a backup. " and later "10:08 –Sends Dan photographs of her map to specify the area she will be hiking in".

That wording of the second quote implies to me that DC had a map of the general area she would be in, but not necessarily with details of the actual route. As she was know to change her plans I doubt she would have actually had time (or battery) to plot out the route on the map using an app before sending it. Sounds like it was the photo of the physical map.

I've lost my link to the dossier. Was that timing "10:08" a map sent on the day of her disappearance or a different day?

 

[Grouse]

I've lost my link to the dossier. Was that timing "10:08" a map sent on the day of her disappearance or a different day?

It was the day before. Here's the link again --> https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

 

[Tortoise]

It was the day before. Here's the link again --> https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

Thank you Grouse.

 

[RedHaus]

Voluntary disappearance is the phrase used to describe suicide. Someone voluntarily disappeared and cannot be found because they don't want to be found.

snipped for focus

Hi @otto, if you don't mind, I'd like to clarify my meaning of "voluntary disappearance" as I think it was defined way back in early Thread #1. To me, voluntary disappearance is a term used by LE to mean either a person committed suicide or the person has purposely dropped out of their normal lives to start over or some such thing. And to differentiate for discussion purposes, I say 'suicide' when that is what I am focused on or I say 'voluntary disappeared' if I mean the latter.... And that is also why when I discuss the prospects of suicide I express it with sadness. And when I say voluntary disappeared I am elated because ED could still be alive.

 

[ZaZara]

Also, we haven't actually heard from Esther. Its from a third party. I dont for one minute think the third party made it up but its possibly open to interpretation.

Something that bothers me a bit about the taking a break thing. Its not particularly an English term. Its an Americanism which came over with Friends I think! So its been here for a while and people no doubt do use it but I think more common would be having a breather, not together at the moment, having some time out..

It could just be the witness presented it that way, just slightly grates on me.

What do my fellow Englanders think?

Non-fellow-Englander here

IMO the conversation about this 'break' could cause misunderstandings between a native speaker and a non-native speaker.

The non-native speaker may have interpreted the term 'break' in a sense that the other person did not intend. The native speaker may have used the term break in a sense that most people are not used to.

For instance, while the native speaker spoke about break in the sense of being on a holiday away from her partner and not knowing when she would return home, the non-native speaker may have understood that they had broken up and it wasn't clear if they would get back together again.

The reverse may also have happened, namely when the non native speaker mentioned break in the sense that that ED was on a holiday and did not know when she would return home, and the native speaker / reporter understood that ED and her partner had broken up and it wasn't clear if they would get back together again.

IMO the info about oats, lettuce and pepper is less open to interpretation.

 

[stmarysmead]

Just a few random thoughts.

Esther’s last two days before her disappearance interest me. On the 21/11 she thanks Dan for “ALL the messages to get me going” apparently receiving them as she prepares to leave the motorvan. Why did Dan feel he had to micromanage when she left? If this was HER trip, why besiege a capable adult woman to start...when DAN fedls she must? I find this interesting.

So she gets on her way, hitching, and faithfully keeps him informed. She reaches the Pic and checks in. Then in early afternoon she sets off again..but back toward the Cabana de la Besurtas.

Now, according to Dan...
‘Spends the night alone at Cabana de la Besurtas on the Spanish side (Esther had no phone signal once she left the peak, but she confirmed this the following day when she returned to Pic de Sauvegarde0’

Was this an excuse for no contact for over 24 hours?

Do we know independently that there is no phone signal between the Pic and the Cabana de la Besurtas? Esther had informed him...incorrectly...about the signal from the Refuge going forward on the French side, so are we sure he isn’t just relying on a similar misstatement?

From early afternoon till late afternoon the next day, we have no information about how she spends those hours. I’m curious if she was just seeking some quiet time, without his texts urging her to get going on HIS timetable. Or feeling controlled from afar. Or time to consider her fears, worries, etc without interruption or emotional pressure. Just speculating because we can’t know unless witnesses come forward. IMO Dan does not know either. The last texts and very short conversation probably did not afford time for any details.

This is a woman who seems to often rise at dawn, with many superb sunrise photos. Yet there is quite some time unaccounted for between arriving the night before at the Cabana and reaching the Pic in late afternoon the next day. And in that time she was seemingly alone with her thoughts.

My rambling thoughts and opinions only...

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Non-fellow-Englander here

IMO the conversation about this 'break' could cause misunderstandings between a native speaker and a non-native speaker.

The non-native speaker may have interpreted the term 'break' in a sense that the other person did not intend. The native speaker may have used the term break in a sense that most people are not used to.

For instance, while the native speaker spoke about break in the sense of being on a holiday away from her partner and not knowing when she would return home, the non-native speaker may have understood that they had broken up and it wasn't clear if they would get back together again.

The reverse may also have happened, namely when the non native speaker mentioned break in the sense that that ED was on a holiday and did not know when she would return home, and the native speaker / reporter understood that ED and her partner had broken up and it wasn't clear if they would get back together again.

IMO the info about oats, lettuce and pepper is less open to interpretation.

Danku!

 

[BobbleBob]

Yes I said something similar upthread that it could have been a misunderstanding. A break to me would imply exactly what we are told ED was doing rather than a trial separation type thing.

However, that said, it seems from the quotes (if they have not been translated from another language, and I don't get the impression that they have) that LA's English was excellent. So with that, and the fact they spent almost 24 hours in each other's company, I now think there might be something in this.

But you're right it is from a third party.

just on the back of this from my personal experience, and knowing a lot of people from the Baltic countries (and Eastern Europe in general) I would expect someone the age of LA to speak fluent English or at least good enough to have a personal conversation with someone. If LA was then older than ED/DC/myself then she would have learned Russian in school vs English, but late 29’s she’ll know English at least well enough for a personal conversation with someone. Add to that she would have experienced a lot of US and UK language from tv shows and movies I’m going to err on the side of caution and say that if the conversation wasn’t about a break in the relationship there was something in it that implied that ED wasn’t fully happy with it.

Now that’s based on the paper managing to be accurate in what they’re reporting, but it does match with what LE have been reported as saying about ED’s and DC’s relationship before.

Also I think we should remember that just because someone says that in a private conversation with a stranger doesn’t mean it’s anything beyond talking out loud or just using it as a sounding board.


Just in relation to the dossier, I would have to as being written and edited by LBT as opposed to DC himself. The base information would have been provided by DC but more than likely adjusted and edited by LBT to control the image of ED and DC. My logic for this is when I was dealing with my late partner’s inquest (disappearance and death) I provided a dossier of about the same size to my legal team who edited a lot of it and reworded other parts to control the narrative. This was rather annoying to me as I’d prefer the truth to be known and seen so people could learn from it, but my legal team wanted to control the information.

Ive also got the impression that some of the information on that dossier came from here.


Just an edit on the back of ZaZara’s comment about the use of ‘break’. As a native English speaker I wouldn’t use the phrase ‘on a break’ from my partner unless the relationship had broke up temporarily as it’s a very negative comment to make (going by normal usage in the UK). On a ‘short break in the mountains to get some hiking done’ yes I’d say that but ‘on a break from my partner’ no not unless we had split up.

But as with all things here we’re getting these quotes from a news paper who’s business is selling papers and may not be too worried about how accurate the information is.

 

[PeggyHenry]

Just a few random thoughts.

Esther’s last two days before her disappearance interest me. On the 21/11 she thanks Dan for “ALL the messages to get me going” apparently receiving them as she prepares to leave the motorvan. Why did Dan feel he had to micromanage when she left? If this was HER trip, why besiege a capable adult woman to start...when DAN fedls she must? I find this interesting.

So she gets on her way, hitching, and faithfully keeps him informed. She reaches the Pic and checks in. Then in early afternoon she sets off again..but back toward the Cabana de la Besurtas.

Now, according to Dan...
‘Spends the night alone at Cabana de la Besurtas on the Spanish side (Esther had no phone signal once she left the peak, but she confirmed this the following day when she returned to Pic de Sauvegarde0’

Was this an excuse for no contact for over 24 hours?

Do we know independently that there is no phone signal between the Pic and the Cabana de la Besurtas? Esther had informed him...incorrectly...about the signal from the Refuge going forward on the French side, so are we sure he isn’t just relying on a similar misstatement?

From early afternoon till late afternoon the next day, we have no information about how she spends those hours. I’m curious if she was just seeking some quiet time, without his texts urging her to get going on HIS timetable. Or feeling controlled from afar. Or time to consider her fears, worries, etc without interruption or emotional pressure. Just speculating because we can’t know unless witnesses come forward. IMO Dan does not know either. The last texts and very short conversation probably did not afford time for any details.

This is a woman who seems to often rise at dawn, with many superb sunrise photos. Yet there is quite some time unaccounted for between arriving the night before at the Cabana and reaching the Pic in late afternoon the next day. And in that time she was seemingly alone with her thoughts.

My rambling thoughts and opinions only...

Yes, you’ve made me stop and think a little more.
Was she feeling somewhat hounded at a time when she needed space to think?

also in terms of all the messages she sent and received.. I wonder are these hearsay or proven I. E do we actually know what messages were sent and received or do we just believe what we are told?

 

[Quietey]

I think that whatever you study at high level, in degrees, A levels etc .. it doesn’t necessarily mean you apply the knowledge in every day life!
Psychologists can be great at theories explaining others’ behaviour but may not apply it to their own way of living. Medical doctors can help and treat patients but also can do things that are destructive to their own health. When you remove emotional involvement you can apply knowledge easily but in your own life you are subject to your own internal anxieties, emotions etc which constantly minimise an objective approach. IMO. I see many instances where people such as counsellors or therapists or doctors have messy lives but are great with others.


So although Esther has great skills in Economics and Business and may be a fantastic consultant to a budding enterprise, when she sets off on a hike and is dealing with her own food provision there will be nothing further from her mind. IMO

Although there are those that do.. my brother is a mathematician and I once remarked that the nights were getting lighter. Immediately he said .. yeah the pattern follows a sine curve so there’s a difference in how much lighter they get depending on what week or month....
do we are all different I spose


Actually, take one fine day when all is great in Esthers world.. great weather, happy banter and a challenging hike for the day. On that day she will pack diligently and expertly for any circumstance.. she is on top of her game.

take another day.. she’s been hiking solo for two weeks and is lonely. She’s a little depressed and doesn’t know where she stands with her relationship. She’s weary and can’t make her mind up where to go or how to feel. On this day she couldn’t care two hoots about what’s in her bag. Her planning skills have gone out the window.

Agree - Esther is clearly extremely intelligent, well qualified and certainly organised enough to live the life she has chosen out of a vehicle in a foreign country while documenting it and writing books. She also appears to feel her emotions very strongly and I'm sure many of us can imagine the total disruption that this might have on planning at times.

My gut feeling isn't that E&D were running out of money, more that they were keenly aware that their resources were finite and wanted to eke them out as long as possible. And maybe became quite competitive with themselves in finding ways of doing this so much so that it became their lifestyle.

I don't think we should read too much into the food or lack of food reports - Esther looks in amazing good health to me, the right sort of weight, strong and vibrant. She could have had all sorts of food tucked away in her bag, in reserve - we just don't know.

Also agree (as mentioned previously) that - among the many possibilities - she could have just had a very unfortunate accident, particularly in the fading light (tripping over shoelace - lol - I did that one while running to catch a train, luckily I hadn't reached the stairs), near sheer drops, with a heavy bag.

One factor that seems particularly pertinent to me is the timing of her disappearance - just after glowing national publicity. The blogs, the book, the lifestyle were all in effect "work" for E&D even if not wage-earning. The publicity painted something that was maybe not the reality, and maybe the relationship aspect was more complicated. If true, this must have felt complicated. There was a certain amount to live up to - difficult! Did Esther herself seek the publicity and did she welcome it? Again, could have led to decisions other than those expected of her.

I'm aware that this doesn't answer "where is she?" at all. For me it still could be any of the options we've discussed. I still really don't think she would choose to "abscond" for the sake of her loved ones.

PS @HongKongPhooey - I think "taking a break" is how it could be said in the UK, more a recent thing though (my teenager would say that)

 

[Quietey]

Very sorry for your loss @BobbleBob, hope that this thread isn't too close to home for you at times.