***SPOILER ALERT*** Imperfect Justice by Jeff Ashton - CONTENT DISCUSSION

[CarolinaMoon]

Who is AF

Ann Finnel, the replacement for Andrea Lyon. (Mitigation phase attorney)

 

[Aedrys]

GA knew exactly how evil his daughter was the the minute he found out she duct taped and suffocated Caylee to death. GA had plenty of time to be Caylee's hero by simply telling the truth, he did not. Caylee is the victim. GA is not.

I am looking at the bigger picture. GA lied for years for Caylee’s killer. He knew the rare Henkel duct tape was his. He knew Caylee died a heinous tortuous death and was thrown out like garbage. What did he do? He lied, he made money off of her death (CA/GA sold pictures too), he blamed innocent people, he (along with his family) set up three foundations…total scam, and he turned his back on Caylee to support her killer.

George defended FCA at Caylee’s funeral, asking people to write letters of support to her after he knew exactly what FCA did to Caylee. GA did not let a little thing like murder, duct tape, swamp, dump, torture, or scavengers stop him from supporting FCA. GA knew FCA drove around with Caylee’s corpse in that car like it was just a piece of trash to be dumped at her convenience.

GA sat side by side with Cindy during all those interviews lying over and over and over again. The smell of death became pizza (ops no pizza) so the smell of death turned into garbage. I could go on but GA told his share of lies. He continued to put money in that monster’s commissary account for years after knowing what happened to Caylee in her last moments on earth and the desecration of her body after death.

GA was downright rude and combative during the Morgan deposition. There was no outrage from GA when FCA falsely accused ZG. He refused to admit FCA did not contribute anything toward basic items such as food, clothing, etc. Considering Caylee’s life was snuffed out by FCA, it seemed like such a trivial and ridiculous thing to argue about, everyone knew FCA hadn’t worked in years. The same combative GA showed himself at FCA’s trial too, arguing over duct tape.

GA already knew FCA told detailed lies about LA (George’s own son) molesting her in the jailhouse letters. FCA hinted that GA was a molester too. Molestation accusations were not new and it wasn’t a stretch for FCA to say he molested or even killed Caylee. After all, she killed her own child and didn't miss a beat with her party life.

So, after all these years, what really upset him the most? What finally made him stop supporting FCA---she accused him. It was a disgusting lie but Caylee is the victim. GA is not. FCA will have another child and that child will pay too---thanks in part to GA.

I will never give that jury a pass because they had enough to serve up the DP but GA and CA’s lies directly contributed to that verdict.

IMO

Bravo!!!! Excellent Post! Apparently as long as the lies are supported and no finger is directly pointed at anyone, that family just moves on and survives. But point a finger at someone and blame them for something, and all hell breaks loose. At least Cindy can't hide who she really is. What always got me about George is that he could shed a few tears and maybe do one or two things and all of sudden, everything that had happened beforehand was wiped away and people had tremendous sympathy, including me for awhile. Then he would do a lot of things to make me mad again, and then here comes the tears and one or two nice things to wipe it away. I eventually saw through him. I just don't have it in me to have any more sympathy for him when all the bad things and things he didn't do far outweigh any good things he did do.

I don't want to say he deserved what Casey did to him, but I wasn't all that surprised to find out that she targeted him so viciously. This man is just as bad as the rest of the family, but he hides it under pretending to care and pretending to have a heart, just to throw all of that away time and again let down those around him, including Caylee. I would imagine a lifetime of that would have a sour effect on his family. Plus, he's too weak to get out of the endless cycle he lives in and do something better for himself and his family. He'd rather exist in the toxic vacuum of his family, barely scraping by, than make life any better and do good by his family and himself.

If my stepdaughter were to accuse my husband of something so heinous, THAT would be painful because my husband is a good man and does right by himself and his family. That happening to George? It just doesn't have the same effect for me since he never really stood up for Caylee against CA and Casey. He's just as bad as they are, he just manages to hide it better and garner sympathy much more productively than they do until, like me, a person just has enough of his carp. I think that's why it hurt me so badly because I knew Cindy and Casey weren't good people and never would be. But I had hope in George. There had to be some good in that family besides just Caylee. But time and again, he let me down and let me down HARD. I can see why Casey hates him so much. There's nothing worse than hope being built up then torn down time and time again.

Bringing this back to JA's book, I did gasp when someone on WS mentioned that JA said in his book that Casey blamed George for molesting and killing Caylee in the pool. That is just horrible to accuse someone of, I agree with that. But I wasn't surprised in the least that Casey accused George of the murder and molestation. She has a rage against him, and I suspect it's in part of how he wasn't a good father, and maybe even promised her things that he never fulfilled. Or one day maybe seemed to care about her, and then next maybe he was against her. Sometimes the worst thing is not the abuser (in this case, Cindy and her controlling relationship with Casey), but the person who stands by and watches the abuse happen, and no matter what they say, nothing ever changes or gets better. Or even worse, at the end of the day, they're never on the abused's side even though they say they are, and are always on the side of abuser. I wonder if that is the type of situation Casey grew up with. I can see a hatred of her father evolving from that for sure.

By the way, this post isn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just my thoughts about George and what I think of him. I understand others have sympathy for him, and that's okay with me. I just can't do it anymore. I can't feel anything for George except for contempt.

 

[rosepetal1065]

The first memory I have of the drowning story was early on when Cindy visited Casey in jail. Cindy scoffed that people were suggesting Casey drowned Cayley and Casey said something about people being so stupid, not to listen to them.

I really enjoy the comments about Ashton's view of Baez. I guess the upside of Florida law is that even the prosecutor can "tell all" after the murder trial is over and done. What I don't understand is why Harvard has Baez as a guest speaker. The person described by Ashton does not mesh with someone worthy of lecturing at a law school. One would hope that harvard isn't going to start putting out Baezes.

This is a very scary prospect....it makes me wonder, in which direction law is headed. imo

 

[Hope4More]

snipped by me... I too chimed in when you wrote that - and I had hoped that you knew my slings were not aimed at you. This whole sordid situation is still raw for so many, and you wrote from your heart about GA. I commend you for being able to see that GA was hurt by OCA and show him some compassion. Many of us here are not at that point yet, and some may never be when it comes to anyone in that family.

Thanks for that, Zippity. It's not so much that I take it personally, but that I am appalled that anyone could think that I'm defending George in any way. I'm not sure compassion is even an accurate description.

I bought JA's book thinking that it would satisfy remaining largely intellectual questions I had about the case, and was amazed how strong my emotions were about parts of what I read. I'm still literally sickened about JA's revelations as to how deep into evil Casey went in accusing her own father of the rape and murder of his granddaughter, and it is that very strong response that made me think of how George must have felt.

 

[rotterdam]

wow. indirectly is saying that OCA deliberately counted the days of lying about Caylee's death because she knew that it would take a month at the most for a body to lose all tissue, thus concealing for ever cause of death.

Yep, brilliant observation by JA and I think that is where timer 55 connects.

 

[lowens1975]

When OCA was first in jail - wasn't one of her cellmates a mother whose small child died in her back yard pool? I seem to remember that.

I'm not sure we can give Cindy credit for passing the drowning tidbit to OCA in the video. For anyone who has a pool in their backyard and a small child - drowning in that pool to me would be the very first explanation a person would come up with for why a child was dead.

IMO, the day CA backed the car into the garage she spent most of her time there trying to think up something to tell her parents. If the pool ladder was indeed up, then I believe Casey put it up and unlatched the side gate so that she could say someone got into the back yard. went swimming, left the ladder up and Caylee climbed in by herself and drowned. I think she thought of it first, but for some reason abandoned that story for the 'kidnapping'.

 

[rotterdam]

whoa... (edit- my bad) says he wished LL had NOT gone for death penalty, even if he wasn't sure the jury would go for it because personally, (sorry Beach)

" I think she may have deserved it."

How I admire this man's candor.

And I always wonder if(BIG IF) without DP, CA, GA or LA might have been more cooperative with PT. If only one of those three would have been more truthful and providing the State with an even more stronger case. As to the brain dead jury, probably no change with or without DP if all other factors/evidence remained the same.

 

[JSR]

IMO, the jury didn't fall for OCA's lies. In a weird kind of way, even THAT would have been more reassuring than what they did, because it would mean that they actually thought about something, anything, that came up during the trial.

After reading JA's account, it is painfully obvious that the jury paid no real attention whatsoever. They apparently kept waiting for the single, "one piece of evidence" (straight out of juror 3's mouth) that would explain everything to them. The when, how, and why and and where of Caylee's murder,all wrapped up in one piece of evidence and explained to them in single syllable words they could understand.

I get why some are finding peace from JA's book. He makes it clear that mistakes were made in his case, yes, and that multiple Ants either committed perjury or came awfully darn close, yes, and that JB is a dishonest slimeball who crossed over the line countless times, yes.... on and on.

BUT, what I hear JA saying is that while all those things matter individually and combined, even if none of them had been at play, the verdict would almost certainly have been the same, given this jury. Nothing else could have been done to make it different.

I completely agree. That's why this book gives me peace. JA plainly indicates only two things could have changed the course of this case, a jury that actually cared and Cindy choosing her granddaughter over Casey.

However, rest assured my fellow WS'ers- Both the jury that apparently didn't seem to give a rat's *advertiser censored* and Cindy will have to look at themselves in the mirror every single day for the rest of their days. And if that doesn't get to them then Karma will.

But in terms of Casey Anthony I have no faith that Karma will ever reach her in this life. If Casey hasn't met Karma yet considering all the horrendous things she has done in her relatively short life than I doubt Karma will ever be fast enough to catch up with her. But I am comforted by the fact that Casey Anthony will one day have to meet a higher power that will certainly care more than the Pineallas 12 and what she did to His sweet angel.

 

[jon_burrows]

Jon- I understand everything you are saying about what George did and did not do, and don't disagree with any of it. And, I'm not defending George. I've said before that he bears responsibility for not reining OCA in years before she ever gave birth to Caylee. He failed her before he ever failed Caylee, and he did because he wouldn't go up against CA.

He has a long sorry history of not showing up when it matters, and for all the wrong reasons. And beyond that, as you point out, of having so little personal integrity that he would try to pull genuinely innocent others down into his daughter-generated slime.

All I was saying, really, this and only this is that any sentient being would have been terribly hurt by being the target of OCA's sick accusations, and yep, that includes George.

Adding-- yes of course Caylee was the only victim who matters. But, she wasn't the only one who was victimized by this case--witness your own list of other victims- so please don't get mad at me for mentioning a single piece of damage in the flood of loss and devastation OCA let loose.

I'm not mad at you. :seeya: I can get very opinionated and it comes across the wrong way. Sorry about that.

If it weren't for the A family lying and covering for FCA I think the dumbest, laziest, most self-absorbed jury (which is exactly what FCA got) could have found her guilty. I don't view the family as victims I see them as money grubbing, fame loving, opportunistic liars that turned their back on an innocent child and helped free a killer. I'll stop here. :silenced:

I am mad at the lame *** responsible for not prosecuting CA for perjury. Way to go Florida, great example. Commit perjury in a first degree murder case and nothing happens. CA handed them a perjury case on a silver platter and they did nothing.

I don't think the innocent people touched by FCA's brand of evil will ever be the same, especially Amy and Jesse. Amy was a good friend to FCA and she got kicked in the teeth in return. She took CA to FCA and CA did the same (like mother like daughter). She stood up to the A family (don't mess with us or you'll lose mentality) and I applaud her. Jesse lost a child he loved.

IMO

 

[Intermezzo]

When JA is speaking of Casey telling Dr's these things, are we talking about the ordered evaluations that the 1st judge ordered at the very beginning of this case? If so, were these things said by Casey in the very beginning? I'm confused.

I am off work today and reading the book on my NOOK..and making highlighted notes..I read the passage about the 2 Dr's who evaluated her in 2008

pcrum,
To answer your question, No they were not told by Casey at the very beginning. This new version of events was told to the Dr's by Casey in April (?) 2011, these were the 2 Dr's the DT brought in in order to "tell" the court Casey's story without having her testify.

The 2 Dr's who evaluated Casey in 2008 were told by her that she had never been abused, sexually or physically, and she did not have a drug problem.
Dr Danziger also noted that he thought she was usually happy considering her circumstances...(I have that text highlighted in my notes)

Sorry if my posts come across as confusing....I am trying to keep my thoughts organized as I read the book with JA's background info and trying to piece them with events of this case these past 3 years...and my thoughts get ahead of my fingers as I post :blushing:

 

[logicalgirl]

Maybe so, it's the suprise suprise video that makes me think she got it from her.

Cindy had a way or wording things that FCA would pick up on. My gut tells me this is one of them.
JMO.

If you remember that video - CA asked her that question because someone in the media or outside the jail asked her that question going in. IMO CA at that point still believed Caylee was alive and out there somewhere.

IMO - OCA's reaction was an of course - people out "there" are saying anything and everything - not that she was plotting that lie already. She didn't need it then - I don't think she had even sold Caylee's pictures yet had she?

When her back was against the wall about ZFG - she then moved on to drowning, + the molestation - + whatever any other hideous thing she could think of to say. Despite what many posters thing - CA wasn't playing lead through all of this - she was constantly rearranging her own thinking to make sense of and justify what OCA was saying. Anything to avoid the truth...

 

[JSR]

And I always wonder if(BIG IF) without DP, CA, GA or LA might have been more cooperative with PT. If only one of those three would have been more truthful and providing the State with an even more stronger case. As to the brain dead jury, probably no change with or without DP if all other factors/evidence remained the same.

No Rotterdam, please don't allow yourself to go down that road. The mistake was not keeping the DP on the table. CA and LA were never ever going to help the state convict Casey on ANYTHING. Neither one of them thought Casey should be punished for anything at all. But it wouldn't have mattered the state had a strong case, but even if it was even stronger this jury was never going to convict Casey. They needed a single piece of evidence to explain everything for them. This jury didn't want to connect any dots, they simply just didn't care enough to even try to connect the dots. If the State had seated a different jury we would have had a different verdict. That much I know.

 

[krkrjx]

My copy was supposed to be delivered today but that didn't happen. I have no idea where it is as USPS tracking shows it mailed from Amazon yesterday and has not updated since. I'm reading here because I know it will not spoil the book for me...a novel with a surprise ending could be spoiled in advance but the truth is what it is, and it never changes.

I am happy to hear JA believes JB to be smarmy and unethical, and KC to be the liar of the century, although I believe JB to be just as big a liar. I personally always felt that the molestation defense was JB's idea, something he approached KC with, and that she was more than OK with.

BTW, I was not aware that DT meant "dream team." For me DT always meant "defense team." Not sure why it took me so long to learn this, but now that I know I will have to learn to stop using the abbreviation.

 

[logicalgirl]

I completely agree. That's why this book gives me peace. JA plainly indicates only two things could have changed the course of this case, a jury that actually cared and Cindy choosing her granddaughter over Casey.

However, rest assured my fellow WS'ers- Both the jury that apparently didn't seem to give a rat's *advertiser censored* and Cindy will have to look at themselves in the mirror every single day for the rest of their days. And if that doesn't get to them then Karma will.

But in terms of Casey Anthony I have no faith that Karma will ever reach her in this life. If Casey hasn't met Karma yet considering all the horrendous things she has done in her relatively short life than I doubt Karma will ever be fast enough to catch up with her. But I am comforted by the fact that Casey Anthony will one day have to meet a higher power that will certainly care more than the Pineallas 12 and what she did to His sweet angel.

Agree and it's interesting isn't it that in the end - CA lost her daughter as well. I believe Mr. Lippman when he says the parents have had no contact with OCA - NONE.

What CA couldn't grasp is how much OCA truly hates her parents and I'm guessing OCA feels they are just trash to be so easily manipulated. OCA doesn't care - she got what she wanted.

Now CA has no grand daughter and no daughter either. That's karma for you.

 

[jon_burrows]

You're right. He knew everything.

I did not know the Foundations were a total scam. Have heard it but I don't know that it has been proven by anyone. It may very well have been, I just don't know that much about it.

But you are right, George knew his daughter Killed his granddaughter and he went along because of Cindy.

I think Lee and George (during the last 911 call) watched Cindy fall apart and decided they were going to go along with what cindy wanted because it was too painful to do anything else.

Either way, George knew the truth - and so did Cindy and does.

My entire post is MOO. The donation buttons are working for those who feel differently.

IMO

 

[logicalgirl]

No Rotterdam, please don't allow yourself to go down that road. The mistake was not keeping the DP on the table. CA and LA were never ever going to help the state convict Casey on ANYTHING. Neither one of them thought Casey should be punished for anything at all. But it wouldn't have mattered the state had a strong case, but even if it was even stronger this jury was never going to convict Casey. They needed a single piece of evidence to explain everything for them. This jury didn't want to connect any dots, they simply just didn't care enough to even try to connect the dots. If the State had seated a different jury we would have had a different verdict. That much I know.

Jeff Ashton puts all the responsibility for this result on CA's head for cooperating with the DT - that her cooperation was necessary for this verdict.

 

[logicalgirl]

My copy was supposed to be delivered today but that didn't happen. I have no idea where it is as USPS tracking shows it mailed from Amazon yesterday and has not updated since. I'm reading here because I know it will not spoil the book for me...a novel with a surprise ending could be spoiled in advance but the truth is what it is, and it never changes.

I am happy to hear JA believes JB to be smarmy and unethical, and KC to be the liar of the century, although I believe JB to be just as big a liar. I personally always felt that the molestation defense was JB's idea, something he approached KC with, and that she was more than OK with.

BTW, I was not aware that DT meant "dream team." For me DT always meant "defense team." Not sure why it took me so long to learn this, but now that I know I will have to learn to stop using the abbreviation.

I have typed those two initials for three years and they have NEVER meant dream team - even in sarcasm...:furious:

BBM: according to Jeff - Baez used a watered down version of what OCA told the "two mental health experts" during her competency hearing. You will be shocked at the full breadth and depth of her lies when you read your copy.

 

[Velouria]

The first memory I have of the drowning story was early on when Cindy visited Casey in jail. Cindy scoffed that people were suggesting Casey drowned Cayley and Casey said something about people being so stupid, not to listen to them.

I really enjoy the comments about Ashton's view of Baez. I guess the upside of Florida law is that even the prosecutor can "tell all" after the murder trial is over and done. What I don't understand is why Harvard has Baez as a guest speaker. The person described by Ashton does not mesh with someone worthy of lecturing at a law school. One would hope that harvard isn't going to start putting out Baezes.

This is a very scary prospect....it makes me wonder, in which direction law is headed. imo

Scary, indeed. :nono:

What's next? Asking Bernie Madoff to head up the PhD program at Harvard Business School??

 

[jon_burrows]

Bravo!!!! Excellent Post! Apparently as long as the lies are supported and no finger is directly pointed at anyone, that family just moves on and survives. But point a finger at someone and blame them for something, and all hell breaks loose. At least Cindy can't hide who she really is. What always got me about George is that he could shed a few tears and maybe do one or two things and all of sudden, everything that had happened beforehand was wiped away and people had tremendous sympathy, including me for awhile. Then he would do a lot of things to make me mad again, and then here comes the tears and one or two nice things to wipe it away. I eventually saw through him. I just don't have it in me to have any more sympathy for him when all the bad things and things he didn't do far outweigh any good things he did do.

I don't want to say he deserved what Casey did to him, but I wasn't all that surprised to find out that she targeted him so viciously. This man is just as bad as the rest of the family, but he hides it under pretending to care and pretending to have a heart, just to throw all of that away time and again let down those around him, including Caylee. I would imagine a lifetime of that would have a sour effect on his family. Plus, he's too weak to get out of the endless cycle he lives in and do something better for himself and his family. He'd rather exist in the toxic vacuum of his family, barely scraping by, than make life any better and do good by his family and himself.

If my stepdaughter were to accuse my husband of something so heinous, THAT would be painful because my husband is a good man and does right by himself and his family. That happening to George? It just doesn't have the same effect for me since he never really stood up for Caylee against CA and Casey. He's just as bad as they are, he just manages to hide it better and garner sympathy much more productively than they do until, like me, a person just has enough of his carp. I think that's why it hurt me so badly because I knew Cindy and Casey weren't good people and never would be. But I had hope in George. There had to be some good in that family besides just Caylee. But time and again, he let me down and let me down HARD. I can see why Casey hates him so much. There's nothing worse than hope being built up then torn down time and time again.

Bringing this back to JA's book, I did gasp when someone on WS mentioned that JA said in his book that Casey blamed George for molesting and killing Caylee in the pool. That is just horrible to accuse someone of, I agree with that. But I wasn't surprised in the least that Casey accused George of the murder and molestation. She has a rage against him, and I suspect it's in part of how he wasn't a good father, and maybe even promised her things that he never fulfilled. Or one day maybe seemed to care about her, and then next maybe he was against her. Sometimes the worst thing is not the abuser (in this case, Cindy and her controlling relationship with Casey), but the person who stands by and watches the abuse happen, and no matter what they say, nothing ever changes or gets better. Or even worse, at the end of the day, they're never on the abused's side even though they say they are, and are always on the side of abuser. I wonder if that is the type of situation Casey grew up with. I can see a hatred of her father evolving from that for sure.

By the way, this post isn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just my thoughts about George and what I think of him. I understand others have sympathy for him, and that's okay with me. I just can't do it anymore. I can't feel anything for George except for contempt.

ITA with your entire post. I hear ya, I was on that roller coaster ride with GA for quite some time until I finally jumped off. I think you have his number.

I've given up trying to figure this family out. I just know they cannot be trusted.

IMO

 

[Just K]

Maybe so, it's the suprise suprise video that makes me think she got it from her.

Cindy had a way or wording things that FCA would pick up on. My gut tells me this is one of them.
JMO.

A variation on this would be that CA knew, through letters passed to her by JB, of the cellmate's story re: her child drowning. Next chance CA got to talk to her daughter, she says, "...the latest story is that Caylee drowned..." She was probably giving her daughter a big seal of approval for that line of defense. More than likely, a letter from the felon to her mother, listed out possible scenarios and the deliveryperson explained that she could let her daughter know which one CA could most easily support with photos, stories, etc and she could do so simply by bringing it up in her visit.

I am certain that a lot of that type of communication occurred. i wouldn't be surprised if Crystal/River Cruz didn't relay info to GA via letters from her sister as well.