State rests rebuttal case- thread #163

[JRS_JD2L]

I've wondered what case the prosecution and police would have used, if Arias did not testify and lie so much in her story. Look how much of the prosecutor's case went to rebut her lies. So take that out and we have what?

Really good question!

The prosecution would have still had: Jodi's bloody palm print, Jodi's hair in blood, the .25 casing, the .25 handgun stolen from grandpa, the gas can evidence, DB's testimony that Jodi needed gas cans to go to mesa, the rental car, all of the phone evidence (phone turned off before entering AZ, re-emerging after nearing the Nevada border, leaving voice mails to the murdered Travis), JA journal entries to Travis after killing him, the stalking evidence from Mimi, et. al.), other crime scene forensics (blood splatter, patterns, etc.), and the autopsy photos that show the aggravated elements for the DP--and of course the camera photos that put her at the scene...I'm sure I'm forgetting other significant circumstantial evidence.

If Jodi had not testified, there would have been no self-defense evidence, no presentation of the faux physical abuse or pedo carp. But, on the flip-side, there would have been no confession to the killing. On balance,though, I think the prosecution's case would have been just as strong as it is now, albeit it would have been a very different trial. :twocents:

 

[Jaykayelle]

In other cases, we have heard how the ME can actually guess at the type of knife used like whether it had serrated edges or not. I was a little surprised there was not PA witness testimony that would describe the type of knife used.

I know they mentioned depth of wound a couple times, but I dont think they tried to establish the size and type of knife used. Maybe it did not matter, but it would have been interesting to hear about it. I am sure the jury is wanting that information too.

I have the autopsy report open right now. The ME describes the size of the stab wounds on the torso as being 0.75 to 1.5 inches. The deepest cut was to the vena cava, which was approximately 3.5 inches deep. He also uses the language "all wounds display blunt and sharply incised ends." Anyone know what he means by that?

 

[Arabian Girl]

I was just thinking of when JA was caught on the interrogation video and she was crying (for herself) and saying "you chickened out you little b****" . Have we learned anything else out about that, was any consensus reached as to what she may have been talking about?

I mean, what did she "chicken out" of? It was obviously something that, at least in her mind, had to do with evidence. Did she hear someone or something and leave before she finished , did she realize she had misplaced the camera and is wishing she had stayed and looked for it? Just wondering what you guys think.

My first thought is she was going to dismember him and dispose of the body.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Well she wasn't nude because we can see in the picture of her dragging Travis that she had at least pants and socks on.

I have a feeling she changed out of the bloody clothes before she left the house and took them with her in a bag or something. She couldn't risk going out to her car and someone seeing her covered in blood.

It must have been hot in Mesa on June 4, and I doubt that anyone would dress in a hoodie and long pants. I think Jodi was wearing lightweight clothing underneath the "Ninja garb" - another hint at premeditation - and that she removed the outer layer of clothing after she did the deed. Or, as you've suggested, she brought a change of clothes since she knew that she wouldn't be able to wear bloody duds when she left Travis' house. :moo:

 

[Emmi]

I was in the middle of my post when thread closed, so brought this over:

posted by Rose22 Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial day 53: REBUTTAL; #162



I agree. I think JA planned it that far ahead, and I think she was so, so sure that she had planned the perfect murder. With that firm belief in her warped mind she was going to get away with it.

I also think it was solely her above average verbal skills and chameleon-like ability to adapt and mirror others that kept her functioning in society at the level she did for so long. It enabled her to repeatedly worm her way into and manipulate her way through the lives of those she used.

Unfortunately for JA, her belief that she was of "Einstein" intelligence also is what created her arrogance and had her fully convinced that she was smarter than everyone, could outwit everyone. In reality though, being manipulative and having superior verbal skills are simply not enough on their own. All it did for her was get her caught in her own web. :twocents:

My bold. I think this is pretty much it--her superior verbal skills, and ability to mirror social behaviours/values is not enough. In fact, it's worse than not enough, because of the psychological need to compensate, to defend one's self against deficits. We know how that goes: either the person primarily hurts him/herself or primarily hurts others.

The picture I get of Jodi's intelligence is one of extremely uneven development. Like she's a intellectually gifted twelve or thirteen year old girl. There's a chasm between her IQ and emotional/social intelligence, and perhaps that's where the character deformities took root.

Maybe this isn't the right thread for this!

 

[Lisa57]

O/T a quick post about nothing. Saw that my number of posts was at 666 and could not leave it there!!! Now to post 667.

My phone # is 0666

 

[Alexander family fan]

Does anyone know about Nurmi filing something with the court today?

 

[Hez]

I think the fact that her car was relatively clean, considering, and there was virtually no blood beyond Travis' bedroom, it speaks to her extreme degree of premeditation.

She came prepared with a plan including a plan to clean herself off and dispose of her clothing undetected. She would have been COVERED in blood from that crime. Think about just the dragging his bloody body part She was in long dark pants and I think her Ninja description probably leaks her own "murder costume". Her hair , unless covered, was also likely covered in blood. She had to have cleaned up in that bathroom before exiting it.

I believe she came prepared with a bag to put everything in she planned on removing (no rope ever existed imo) and cleaned herself up in that shower, likely while Travis was in it (because she would have gotten bloody again moving him back in after cleaning off) which is one of the most disturbing ideas of her murderous rage. Rather her sociopathic evilness.

So I think she neatly packed up her bloody clothing with her weapons, was clean and showered in a new prepared outfit to walk out of that house in broad daylight and leave , maybe with a small amount of "blood on her hands" related to bloody items she had to interact with post clean up (of herself).

So I think those clothes are disposed somewhere between Travis' house and the Hoover dam. Just like she planned and carefully crafted. In her days and weeks of premeditation and planning.

All of which adds up to:

FIRST DEGREE MURDER

This could explain the small amount of blood found on the washing machine (or maybe the dryer), IIRC. She had everything ready, left the bedroom, made a pitstop at the washing machine, did her business with the doggie gate, etc. and then finally left. Although the only one who truly knows about the sequence of events won't ever tell the truth of what happened that day. :moo:

 

[Ammonitida]

http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2013...ander-10-critical-crime-scene-evidence-photos

Photo of Travis with blood in neck area. No way his throat has been slit at this point because it would render his head position in this photo impossible. ME even testified to this yesterday without realizing it. I do not believe Travis was shot first,but I do believe his throat was not slit until she got him back in bathroom area. Her intent was to dismember him. She soon realized this was impossible, more than likely after she took a breather, realized how time consuming and strenuous that was going to be and noticed how much blood Travis had gotten on carpet,nothing something she could clean up.

Sorry for typos working on an iPad.

You're assuming that he is holding up his head. The photo shows only part of Jodi's foot. You can't see either of her arms. One of her hands could be grabbing TA's hair and lifting his head slightly up while the other could be lifting up his right arm. In her high adrenaline state, she may have tried to move him around at an awkward angle, but then she regained her focus and dragged him by the feet toward the shower stall.

Furthermore, the blood is clearly gushing from the neck area. Unlikely this amount of blood would be coming from the small gunshot wound or the knife wound to the chest. Also telling is the limp state of his foot. Most people just ignore it for some reason. But look at it -- it's in the kind of position that you would expect from a corpse. A conscious man who was lifting up his head and defending himself with his right arm would have feet pointed more toward the ceiling, not to the extreme sides. Try this out for yourself. Lay down on the floor flat and pretend that you're fighting off an attacker. Now note your feet. Your feet will respond to your torso movements, pointing the toes upward. Now just relax yourself. Your resting will cause your toes to point to the sides. This is also true for corpses.

 

[kaydono]

I've done about 20 minutes of work today. I think that's about enough for the day.

It seems like a reasonable about of time to invest in it for today. Since you invested so much time today, I see a bonus day off in the near future. :floorlaugh:

 

[momof7]

Wouldn't it be extremely creepy if JA was actually IN THE HOUSE when Enrique got home? What if she heard him pull up, hid, and then snuck out as soon as she had an opportunity? Who knows, but it's possible.

I don't think Enrique would have even noticed anything, like the washer and dryer running, etc., especially since he came and went through the front door, IIRC. And there's no way she parked in the driveway...

Yep, I think its possible too. There are so many possibilities!

K

 

[zoozoo]

My bold. I think this is pretty much it--her superior verbal skills, and ability to mirror social behaviours/values is not enough. In fact, it's worse than not enough, because of the psychological need to compensate, to defend one's self against deficits. We know how that goes: either the person primarily hurts him/herself or primarily hurts others.

The picture I get of Jodi's intelligence is one of extremely uneven development. Like she's a intellectually gifted twelve or thirteen year old girl. There's a chasm between her IQ and emotional/social intelligence, and perhaps that's where the character deformities took root.

Maybe this isn't the right thread for this!

BBM
Remember: the girl with the IQ of 119 left a car in gear while trying to tow it.

 

[neesaki]

Does anyone know about Nurmi filing something with the court today?

Dear God, please don't let it be for another mistrial lease:

 

[Truth Detector]

100% agree. She is proud and feels justified about his slaughter. She is not sorry. I bet she's dying to scream "you stupid morons, you're completely wrong about x, y or z..." when the testimony varies from the actual events, all of which are solidly embedded in her "memory."

Speaking of memory, it occurs to me that she was taunting/playing games with LE in the interrogation video when she sang the Dido line. She knew darn well she was being video-recorded. "It might change my memory..." was just a jab at interrogators and for posterity.

Unquestionably...

She employed that 119 IQ (and perfect verbal comprehension) full-time on victim assassination (literal and character), alibis, and cover-ups.

She did not have enough knowledge about Travis's will to live. She couldn't predict precisely how Travis just wouldn't cooperate. She had planned for him to die simply and quickly -- but in pain and agony -- alone in that shower stall.

We know this because of the heinous and unconscionable manner of death and re-positioning/staging/posing of the body with legs spread, nude and uncovered.

She planned to and did bare him to the world bodily in death, and to do the same to his memory when the State didn't buy her evil 'bargain'.

She has so far mostly succeeded. It is up to the jury to stop her 'dead' cold in her tracks.

That will be justice for Travis and his surviving family and true friends.

Let's hope we don't see a repeat of the Pinellas County 12 miscarriage.

 

[Zuri]

I have the autopsy report open right now. The ME describes the size of the stab wounds on the torso as being 0.75 to 1.5 inches. The deepest cut was to the vena cava, which was approximately 3.5 inches deep. He also uses the language "all wounds display blunt and sharply incised ends." Anyone know what he means by that?

The blade was a non serrated edge and sharp. I gotta go back and read the autopsy again. Most likely a restaurant quality knife. Mhhhhhm

 

[momof7]

Does anyone know about Nurmi filing something with the court today?

No, but I will go to the Maricopa Website and see if there is anything listed as being filed today.

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.g...rtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CR2008-031021

It does look like something was filed today. But Idk what it pertains too or who filed.

K

 

[Truth Detector]

In other cases, we have heard how the ME can actually guess at the type of knife used like whether it had serrated edges or not. I was a little surprised there was not PA witness testimony that would describe the type of knife used.

I know they mentioned depth of wound a couple times, but I dont think they tried to establish the size and type of knife used. Maybe it did not matter, but it would have been interesting to hear about it. I am sure the jury is wanting that information too.

IIRC, none of the knives present in the house could be ruled out as the murder weapon. Any one or a combination thereof could have been wielded as Travis's butcher's (Jodi's) tool(s).

 

[Lisa57]

I've wondered what case the prosecution and police would have used, if Arias did not testify and lie so much in her story. Look how much of the prosecutor's case went to rebut her lies. So take that out and we have what?

I don't think it's possible for JA to "not lie so much". Even if she hadn't made up two stories before her most current story, she couldn't restrain herself from lying about her hair color, Helio phone, gas cans... Einstein just can't resist trying to fool people even if she or her lawyers could have come up with a plausible explanation for some of the oddities in the case.

 

[Gypsy Road]

In other cases, we have heard how the ME can actually guess at the type of knife used like whether it had serrated edges or not. I was a little surprised there was not PA witness testimony that would describe the type of knife used.

I know they mentioned depth of wound a couple times, but I dont think they tried to establish the size and type of knife used. Maybe it did not matter, but it would have been interesting to hear about it. I am sure the jury is wanting that information too.

I think too much decomposition had set in for them to determine or even guess what type of knife had been used. Seems like I read or heard that someone.

 

[pinkie60]

I was in the middle of my post when thread closed, so brought this over:

posted by Rose22 Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial day 53: REBUTTAL; #162



I agree. I think JA planned it that far ahead, and I think she was so, so sure that she had planned the perfect murder. With that firm belief in her warped mind she was going to get away with it.

I also think it was solely her above average verbal skills and chameleon-like ability to adapt and mirror others that kept her functioning in society at the level she did for so long. It enabled her to repeatedly worm her way into and manipulate her way through the lives of those she used.

Unfortunately for JA, her belief that she was of "Einstein" intelligence also is what created her arrogance and had her fully convinced that she was smarter than everyone, could outwit everyone. In reality though, being manipulative and having superior verbal skills are simply not enough on their own. All it did for her was get her caught in her own web. :twocents:

i think her planning and executing of this murder was even worse and scarier than we can imagine. i'm anxious for the verdict and interviews with the jurors after. she deserves the DP for sure, but just by some fluke she got a 40 yr sentence and had to serve all of it with no possibility of parole, she would be 72 when she got out. would she even want to get out after all that time? my cousin and i are avid watchers of the trial, her opinion is she will p-- off people in prison and be killed.