Steve Thomas Update 2009

[Ames]

keep in mind that even if there were a DNA match,the person would also have to be placed in Boulder on that night.I don't recall who it was that posted about a case where there was indeed a dna match in another case,but...the guy was 6 yrs old at the time.
I think there is another case where a match did occur,but the guy was in prison at the time.(correct me if I'm wrong).
what if the dna belongs to one of JB's playmates??It could certainly be an innocent match as well.

What about the lady that I posted about that worked in a factory that made the "cotton buds" used to make the material for collecting evidence...cotton swabs, etc. There was an invisble killer out there, I believe it was in England..I will have to go back and re-read the article again...and many people were killed. The same dna was found at all of the crime scenes. The DNA belonged to a woman that worked in the factory that made the cotton buds, for the cotton swabs...used in collecting the evidence (man she sure did have some BAD luck, didn't she?) Anyway, she was found to be innocent...so they are back to square one.

 

[Maikai]

In fairness, Maikai, I hadn't thought about ST having reason to be especially sensitive to the transient nature of a university town. And of course, crims like campuses (look at Ted Bundy). However, the fact that ST doesn't really discuss the university issue in his book doesn't mean that it wasn't investigated since a) he was only one of a team of investigators and he essentially only covers his own findings in the book, b) discussing it might have compromised detective partners and the work they did and c) any one of the anonymous hundreds of people interviewed could have had university connections which weren't specifically mentioned in his or anyone else's book. You'd also have to assume that the legendary investigative skills of Michael Tracey of CU would have uncovered any university connection

The decline in the University Hill area wasn't only University students. The transients weren't college students. Just people that had gravitated towards Boulder and hungout causing trouble. The Boulder Camera, prior to the murder, had numerous articles of unprovoked assaults against law-abiding citizens.....drug use and and escalation in crimes such as burglary...and other intruder attacks.

The BPD rented space for a satellite operation in the Hill. They were being evicted from what I recall. ST busted the owners for growing pot for their own consumption. He claims that was not retaliation for the eviction. That was prior to the murder of JBR. Has nothing to do with the murder---just some trivia I recall. There was a very dark subculture in Boulder and the Hill area...the Ramseys were oblivious to what was going on close to where they lived.

 

[JMO8778]

The decline in the University Hill area wasn't only University students. The transients weren't college students. Just people that had gravitated towards Boulder and hungout causing trouble. The Boulder Camera, prior to the murder, had numerous articles of unprovoked assaults against law-abiding citizens.....drug use and and escalation in crimes such as burglary...and other intruder attacks.

The BPD rented space for a satellite operation in the Hill. They were being evicted from what I recall. ST busted the owners for growing pot for their own consumption. He claims that was not retaliation for the eviction. That was prior to the murder of JBR. Has nothing to do with the murder---just some trivia I recall. There was a very dark subculture in Boulder and the Hill area...the Ramseys were oblivious to what was going on close to where they lived.

but by no means does it necessarily mean that one of those ppl did it.and if they were so messed up,I doubt they'd be able to duplicate Patsy's handwriting and style to such a T,complete w JR's bonus amt and an inside family joke.

 

[Sophie]

The decline in the University Hill area wasn't only University students. The transients weren't college students. Just people that had gravitated towards Boulder and hungout causing trouble. The Boulder Camera, prior to the murder, had numerous articles of unprovoked assaults against law-abiding citizens.....drug use and and escalation in crimes such as burglary...and other intruder attacks.

The BPD rented space for a satellite operation in the Hill. They were being evicted from what I recall. ST busted the owners for growing pot for their own consumption. He claims that was not retaliation for the eviction. That was prior to the murder of JBR. Has nothing to do with the murder---just some trivia I recall. There was a very dark subculture in Boulder and the Hill area...the Ramseys were oblivious to what was going on close to where they lived.

I agree, Maikai, about universities attracting the jetsam and flotsam of society - I guess it's easy to stay under the radar in places which are by definition transient. Would it be possible, though, for a person like this to acquire fairly intimate knowledge of the Ramseys and their movements and for the Ramseys to be totally unaware of him or her? Equally, with their network of friends and workers, would it be possible for the Ramseys not to have heard anecdotes about the more dubious parts of town? That statement in DoI (I think) about not knowing about the demographics of the Hill area looks, to me at least, a bit disingenuous.

However, even if you accept that the murderer could have been some sort of random, and that this random left his DNA at the scene, you have to marvel at his self-control to have committed no offences that would result in his DNA being added to CODIS since 1996. I think it's HOTYH who thinks that the perp was a foreigner who returned to his own country shortly after the crime and therefore wouldn't have too much trouble avoiding attention from US law enforcement and DNA records. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting HOTYH's theory. But this begs the question as to why a foreigner would go to the time, expense and trouble of identifying the Ramseys as targets then ask for $118,000. Which brings us back to Occam's Razor....

Seriously, Maikai, I really want the Ramseys to be innocent but the concatenation of circumstances required for the perp to be someone other than the Ramseys is nothing short of staggering.



PS. Happy Friday All

 

[Sophie]

Good grief. Just trying to find an article for Maikai and came across this:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JF8BzrAtt4"]YouTube - CNN Interview[/nomedia]


Some of the remarks on the comments pages are so angry and intense! Makes you hope that there's a new generation of anti-psychotic medication in the offing...

 

[Sophie]

I don't believe that at all.

The parents actions were a direct result from a shoddy investigation and ultimately witch hunt that came after.

If the truth turns out to be an unknown intruder, there could be no excuses for ST or some message board posters as well. It is written in books and documented.

Sorry for late reply, Roy, but if you exclude the crime scene errors and a certain recalcitrance on the part of the DA's office about subpoenas and so on, what exactly was shoddy about the investigation? I mean, bearing in mind that Lou Smit was investigating on the QT too.

 

[DeeDee249]

The behavior of the DA's office was certainly shabby.

 

[Sophie]

In another odd parallel with JBR's case, the McCanns have announced that they are suing the Portugese detective for defamation:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090517/tuk-mccanns-to-sue-ex-police-chief-over-45dbed5.html

And he's counter-suing:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090517/tuk-portuguese-investigator-to-counter-s-a7ad41d.html

He really should touch base with ST....

 

[madeleine]

Good for them IMO,but we really shouldn't discuss this case over here.And I would NEVER compare ST with THAT "detective".

IMO

 

[Sophie]

Good for them IMO,but we really shouldn't discuss this case over here.And I would NEVER compare ST with THAT "detective".

IMO

Not really wanting to discuss Maddy - haven't studied that case, wouldn't recognise the Portugese detective if he walked into my living room and have very few views on it - but it's fascinating that they are following the Ramsey path in so many ways. I mean, all you want is your life back and to be left alone so you noisily sue a high profile principal in the case.... I suspect they are students of the Ramsey case and have looked closely at the ST-Ramsey story.

 

[madeleine]

I don't remember exactly but I think the R's said they are gonna sue ST back when they were on the LKL show and he was getting on their nerves.
A pretty hasty&stupid decision IMO,look how it turned out.

 

[Sophie]

I don't remember exactly but I think the R's said they are gonna sue ST back when they were on the LKL show and he was getting on their nerves.
A pretty hasty&stupid decision IMO,look how it turned out.

LOL! The funny thing is, there are people who talk in terms of the Ramseys having kicked ST's *advertiser censored**e and scored some huge victory over him. Did I miss something?

 

[madeleine]

LOL! The funny thing is, there are people who talk in terms of the Ramseys having kicked ST's *advertiser censored**e and scored some huge victory over him. Did I miss something?

:waitasec: Think I missed that too.

 

[BBB167893]

In another odd parallel with JBR's case, the McCanns have announced that they are suing the Portugese detective for defamation:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090517/tuk-mccanns-to-sue-ex-police-chief-over-45dbed5.html

And he's counter-suing:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090517/tuk-portuguese-investigator-to-counter-s-a7ad41d.html

He really should touch base with ST....

This could turn out very well or very badly.

 

[Maikai]

I don't remember exactly but I think the R's said they are gonna sue ST back when they were on the LKL show and he was getting on their nerves.
A pretty hasty&stupid decision IMO,look how it turned out.

Yes, they did say they would sue him--don't know if they used the exact term. I'm sure Lin Wood was just waiting for ST to chant his "Patsy did it" mantra, which he did.

I don't know how John Ramsey kept his temper and didn't punch ST right in the nose.

I think Patsy was oblivious to much of the behind the scenes actions on this investigation. She was actually kind to ST---blaming his superiors for lack of good leadership. I don't even think she knew much about ST---didn't know he was married.

 

[Maikai]

People have gone away on MUCH less. Scott Peterson leaps to mind.

You have to have a hanging DA. We know they can get an indictment on a ham sandwich--it wasn't going to happen in Boulder. Too much visibility...smarter grand jury people....and not enough evidence for trial.


Quote:

That propaganda really needs to die. I do my best in chapter nine to do exactly that.

Show me the proof.



Quote:
Thomas ignored lack of motive,

Plenty of people have killed without motive.

Yes, there are hate crimes, and crimes of sick people. There is NOTHING in either of the Ramseys past to indicate they were capable of this crime....no money problems, no abuse..nothing.


Quote:
history of the parents,

This whole "history" stuff is a useful myth. But that's all it is. Ask Casey Anthony.

Casey Anthony has a history, which I think is some mental illness...and she didn't want her child from the beginning. More will come out at trial.


Quote:
the strength required to deliver the head blow,

To a 45-pound child?

Yes...it crushed in her skull........it would take tremendous strength, and anger.


Quote:
the complexity of the garrotte,

Except it wasn't complex. "Very simple knots" were the examiner's words.

Never heard for sure on the knot. It has been described as complex.


I may have screwed up copying the quotes....do not know how to just do a section at a time.

 

[BBB167893]

Yes, they did say they would sue him--don't know if they used the exact term. I'm sure Lin Wood was just waiting for ST to chant his "Patsy did it" mantra, which he did.

I seem to recall at least one member of Team R didn't think it was so good. Ellis Armistead resigned after that, didn't he?

I don't know how John Ramsey kept his temper and didn't punch ST right in the nose.

Truth be told, I would have preferred a good old-fashioned fistfight to all of this legal-beagle palaver. Take me, for example. If someone insulted me, I wouldn't sue them. I'd prefer a duel.

And I KNOW how.

I think Patsy was oblivious to much of the behind the scenes actions on this investigation. She was actually kind to ST---blaming his superiors for lack of good leadership.

If by "kind" you mean condescending and manipulative, then yeah!

I don't even think she knew much about ST---didn't know he was married.

Obviously NOT, the way she tried to seduce him. And just whose bright idea was it for her to come on in that state, anyway?!

 

[Maikai]

but by no means does it necessarily mean that one of those ppl did it.and if they were so messed up,I doubt they'd be able to duplicate Patsy's handwriting and style to such a T,complete w JR's bonus amt and an inside family joke.

Don't underestimate a criminal! Personally, I think it was substance abuser---possibly meth. Meth is highly addicting..can cause rages..and makes the person think they're omnipotent.

Because of the Access article shortly before the murder, it's possible the perp didn't know that much about John Ramsey at all that he couldn't have gotten from the article, and saw the bonus while going through the house. Criminals like perusing the paper for future victims. There might have been a slight knowledge of JR---they saw the the article, and the plan was hatched. JR and JBR were the perfect victims...wealthy father and trophy daughter.

 

[BBB167893]

People have gone away on MUCH less. Scott Peterson leaps to mind.

You have to have a hanging DA.

I would have preferred that, to be honest with you. Look, I could go on a big rant about how the quality of prosecutors has dropped drastically these last few years, but I'll save you the time and just say that while justice should be blind, it shouldn't be handcuffed too.

We know they can get an indictment on a ham sandwich--it wasn't going to happen in Boulder.

You got that right. A GOOD prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. Underline GOOD. Not a stinking inert bureaucrat trying to cover his butt.

Too much visibility...smarter grand jury people

Smarter? Have you actually read what some of them had to say? Remember that book I told you about? I have a whole section devoted to how the GJ was a dog-and-pony show, and the doberman never made it.

....and not enough evidence for trial.

I think Henry Lee said something like that. It also helps to keep in mind how the majority of domestic homicides are solved. The DA made sure that method wouldn't be used.

Quote: That propaganda really needs to die. I do my best in chapter nine to do exactly that.

Show me the proof.

You got it. Let's see: Scott Peterson had no violent history. David Westerfield had no violent history, which Marc Klaas was nice enough to point out to that scumwad Wood. Casey Anthony, to my knowledge has no history of violence.

And it wasn't chapter nine, for the record. It's in there somewhere. Mostly about how this "history" stuff only applies to premeditated murder.

Quote:
Plenty of people have killed without motive.

Yes, there are hate crimes, and crimes of sick people.

Actually, I was speaking of premeditation.

There is NOTHING in either of the Ramseys past to indicate they were capable of this crime....no money problems, no abuse..nothing.

Oh, no?

Quote:
history of the parents, This whole "history" stuff is a useful myth. But that's all it is. Ask Casey Anthony.

Casey Anthony has a history, which I think is some mental illness...and she didn't want her child from the beginning. More will come out at trial.

I HOPE so. Because of yet I have yet to see anything REALLY solid against her. (But then, I admit, I don't keep up with that case as much). And I was referring to a history of prior violence. Weren't you? Look, I'm about as far from PC as you can get, but even I'll say that MANY people live every day with mental illness without hurting anyone.


Quote:
To a 45-pound child?

Yes...it crushed in her skull........it would take tremendous strength, and anger.

Isn't that what I've been saying?

Quote:Except it wasn't complex. "Very simple knots" were the examiner's words.

Never heard for sure on the knot.

No problem! I reprinted the quote in the book:

"I don't know where this came from that these were sophisticated knots. These were very simple knots."

It has been described as complex.

Yes, I know. (More on that later.)

I may have screwed up copying the quotes....do not know how to just do a section at a time.

No sweat. I'll show you. Just go to where the quote begins and type [ then QUOTE then ], then go to the end and type the same thing just with a / before the Q. Or, you can highlight the quote and press the word balloon icon.

 

[Sophie]

Yes, they did say they would sue him--don't know if they used the exact term. I'm sure Lin Wood was just waiting for ST to chant his "Patsy did it" mantra, which he did.

I don't know how John Ramsey kept his temper and didn't punch ST right in the nose.

I think Patsy was oblivious to much of the behind the scenes actions on this investigation. She was actually kind to ST---blaming his superiors for lack of good leadership. I don't even think she knew much about ST---didn't know he was married.

Struggling to believe that, Maikai. With the personnel and resources available to them, I imagine the Ramseys could tell you details about ST's preferred brand of razors, never mind broad stroke stuff like marital status. What the comments about his youthful looks etc were about, I'd suggest, is wanting him to look like some ingenue or idiotic young fule who had no clue about family or married life. Attack is always the best defence. In any event, I'd bet a fair penny that they knew almost as much as The Globe knew about his antecedents. In fact, if memory serves (and at this point, it may not), I think ST actually made several references to his marriage in the PR interview and suggested that he had a great deal of personal affinity with JR as a person in his interview. Do you forget this sort of detail about an arch-enemy?


Re Patsy flirting, I seem to recall her being apoplectic about that suggestion. In fairness, some men (and women) do imagine that they are being flirted with all the time and irritating gits they are too but, if you are a pageant winner of her stature, I think you probably know the power a fluttering eyelash can have and I can imagine her trying the helpless female act on ST. I mean, there was a survey over here a while back about whether women flirt with traffic police when they get stopped. Much to their own disgust, a fair old percentage of women admitted that a) they did and b) would (despite the associated self-loathing) do it again. When the stakes are really high, I can imagine a person trying just about anything.

On the point of motive, ST didn't need a motive - he thought that the death was accidental. The motive for covering up an accident is pretty transparent: do the perfect couple want to admit to having tempers and bad moments and stress and a snapping point? Do they want social services looking at the rest of the family (eg. Burke) to see if they are at risk? Do they want business associates and employees looking at them slightly askance? Do they want the legal folderol? After all, they aren't really proper criminals and what interest exactly would be served by them going through some sort of judicial procedure? Will a prison sentence bring JBR back and who will mourn her more than we will mourn her anyway? We're suffering enough. I'm not saying that this is the scenario but I think it's pretty plausible.

ETA: Just trying to find a link to a local news story from today (6 O clock news in fact) in which a woman offered a remarkable favour to a PC in return for his forgiving her another speeding ticket. In fairness, I think PR had a lot more class than this slapper but women do, apparently, use the tools at hand in times of crisis.