Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

[chlban]

chlban,
BBM: Well that it appears innocuous is precisely why it interests me. Not that it indicates guilt, but more what part may it have played in a prior staging? JR showered and dressed in clean clothes that morning Patsy did not, that she had time to do her makeup suggests not dressing in clean clothes was a deliberate decision, i.e. not one forced on her due to a lack of time. Obviously by the time the 911 call was made the R's had their game plan settled and they all knew their roles and acted accordingly.
.

I just don't see it as particulalry innocuous. Presumably the clothes were still clean. It's not as if she was doing anything particularly taxing in them. She was not seeing the same people that she had spent Christmas with (except Hubby and kids who probably wouldn't even remember what she was wearing). If she were planning to again spend the day with the White's or others at their house on Christmas, then yes, I would see it as odd. But as it was, not so much.

As for the head wound, I recently saw someone experience a head injury that turned out to be relatively minor. A mild concussion, and she was not even kept overnight in the hospital. Yet when she was originally hit (in the heat with what I guess is called a "shot" as in shot put), I thought she was very likely mortally wounded. She immediately starting having convulsions. It was truly terrifying.

She doesn't even remember being hit in the head and is fine. However that convinced me more than ever that Patsy may have witnessed something quite similar with JonBenet after the head wound. Perhaps she thought she would never fully recover from the injury. I certainly thought that myself. Of course, the head injury in this case was clearly more serious so that is only speculation.

I still tend to lean toward Patsy having reacted in anger and hitting her. The rest being staging. Basically, as is appropriate in this thread, a variation on the Steve Thomas theory.

I don't think John was in on the original staging and that, IMO, explains why 911 had to be called immediately as well as why so many people were called to the house - to deflect his inevitable questions, and why they behaved so oddly to each other that morning.

I also think that is why, initially, he told the truth about the reason the window was broken. Probably the most compelling reason I think that is that I believe he was too smart to have presented that ludicrous Ransom Note. That note just screams Patsy to me and not because of the potential handwriting match.

However, I think the RN was also the give away to John. As soon as he read it, it screamed Patsy to him as well, IMO.

 

[elannia]

Burke sure enough could have been the molester. I dont see the parents covering up for each other if one of them killed JB. I mean heybit hapoens but I know I sure wouldnt. Kids are curious want to play "dr" and maybe she was telling patsy about this going on and friends started to notice a change in JB that why they wanted to talk, see what was wrong with her. Someone was molesting her and I do not see Patsy as being that person. John... he was so obsessed with his daughter and was heartbroke when she died. I see JB as a daddys girl so I dont think he was the molester either. Maybe one of their friends? A male? Maybe at the Christmas party on yhe 23rd something happened thats why she made the remark about not feeling pretty. Patsy had so much going on after all she was the hostess and maybe the "molester" was at this party im sure patsy wasnt keeping tabs on her all night. Maybe thats the reason for the 911 call then. Ok. [modsnip] MOO

 

[UKGuy]

I just don't see it as particulalry innocuous. Presumably the clothes were still clean. It's not as if she was doing anything particularly taxing in them. She was not seeing the same people that she had spent Christmas with (except Hubby and kids who probably wouldn't even remember what she was wearing). If she were planning to again spend the day with the White's or others at their house on Christmas, then yes, I would see it as odd. But as it was, not so much.

As for the head wound, I recently saw someone experience a head injury that turned out to be relatively minor. A mild concussion, and she was not even kept overnight in the hospital. Yet when she was originally hit (in the heat with what I guess is called a "shot" as in shot put), I thought she was very likely mortally wounded. She immediately starting having convulsions. It was truly terrifying.

She doesn't even remember being hit in the head and is fine. However that convinced me more than ever that Patsy may have witnessed something quite similar with JonBenet after the head wound. Perhaps she thought she would never fully recover from the injury. I certainly thought that myself. Of course, the head injury in this case was clearly more serious so that is only speculation.

I still tend to lean toward Patsy having reacted in anger and hitting her. The rest being staging. Basically, as is appropriate in this thread, a variation on the Steve Thomas theory.

I don't think John was in on the original staging and that, IMO, explains why 911 had to be called immediately as well as why so many people were called to the house - to deflect his inevitable questions, and why they behaved so oddly to each other that morning.

I also think that is why, initially, he told the truth about the reason the window was broken. Probably the most compelling reason I think that is that I believe he was too smart to have presented that ludicrous Ransom Note. That note just screams Patsy to me and not because of the potential handwriting match.

However, I think the RN was also the give away to John. As soon as he read it, it screamed Patsy to him as well, IMO.

chlban,
If you accept that BR was awake and was heard speaking to JR on the 911 call, then JR was fully aware what was going on. I interpret the tension between JR and PR that morning as likely due to PR resenting JR amending her staging and changing everyone's roles?

The 911 call was not made immediately. It was preceded by hours of staging, and restaging, JonBenet was long dead by the time it was all finished.

If JonBenet had next to no injuries, i.e. contusions and abrasions then I could buy a PDI along the lines of Steve Thomas. Collectively the injuries do not add up to a single instance of rage where PR whacks JonBenet in anger. JonBenet also has bruising beneath the circumferential ligature, so someone made that, not a ligature, otherwise there should be some matching pressure point somewhere else.

A convincing PDI might have PR throttling JonBenet, she then loses conciousness, falling onto some hard object thereby cracking her skull, and the ligature is staging to mask everything that went before, PR never knew the extent of JonBenet's head injury, it was invisible until the coroner pulled her scalp back!

.

 

[2 percent]

chlban,
If you accept that BR was awake and was heard speaking to JR on the 911 call, then JR was fully aware what was going on. I interpret the tension between JR and PR that morning as likely due to PR resenting JR amending her staging and changing everyone's roles?

The 911 call was not made immediately. It was preceded by hours of staging, and restaging, JonBenet was long dead by the time it was all finished.

If JonBenet had next to no injuries, i.e. contusions and abrasions then I could buy a PDI along the lines of Steve Thomas. Collectively the injuries do not add up to a single instance of rage where PR whacks JonBenet in anger. JonBenet also has bruising beneath the circumferential ligature, so someone made that, not a ligature, otherwise there should be some matching pressure point somewhere else.

A convincing PDI might have PR throttling JonBenet, she then loses conciousness, falling onto some hard object thereby cracking her skull, and the ligature is staging to mask everything that went before, PR never knew the extent of JonBenet's head injury, it was invisible until the coroner pulled her scalp back!

.

But why go to a garrotte? That's the monkey wrench for me. Why not just strangle her with the cord instead of fashioning a garrotte?

 

[chlban]

But why go to a garrotte? That's the monkey wrench for me. Why not just strangle her with the cord instead of fashioning a garrotte?

The same reason you write a RN that everyone else considers ludicrous. Dramatic flair. It wasn't about getting the job done, IMO, it was about a drama queen's version of staging.

 

[chlban]

chlban,
If you accept that BR was awake and was heard speaking to JR on the 911 call, then JR was fully aware what was going on. I interpret the tension between JR and PR that morning as likely due to PR resenting JR amending her staging and changing everyone's roles?

BBM and respectfully snipped. I don't see what Burke being awak has to do with proving that JR was fully aware of what was going on.
He heard Patsy screaiming just as they both said So his natural reaction is to have her call 911. So Burke woke up and asked what they found. How does that prove John was in on the staging?

In your scenario who is the killer?

 

[2 percent]

Burke sure enough could have been the molester. I dont see the parents covering up for each other if one of them killed JB. I mean heybit hapoens but I know I sure wouldnt. Kids are curious want to play "dr" and maybe she was telling patsy about this going on and friends started to notice a change in JB that why they wanted to talk, see what was wrong with her. Someone was molesting her and I do not see Patsy as being that person. John... he was so obsessed with his daughter and was heartbroke when she died. I see JB as a daddys girl so I dont think he was the molester either. Maybe one of their friends? A male? Maybe at the Christmas party on yhe 23rd something happened thats why she made the remark about not feeling pretty. Patsy had so much going on after all she was the hostess and maybe the "molester" was at this party im sure patsy wasnt keeping tabs on her all night. Maybe thats the reason for the 911 call then. Ok. [modsnip] MOO

I think Burke is on the young side for being a molester. It's not unheard of by any means but a 9 year old being a sexual aggressor is outside the norm.
I also think his behavior doesn't fit. Again, I don't think a 9 year old can muster up enough sexual need. So this is about curiosity, I presume. Why was Burke never curious about anyone else, before or after? Sexual fetishes don't just disappear overnight. Why wouldn't he prey on girls his own age, kissing and playing doctor? One reason would be JB being the curious one, being sexually the aggressor. But then that puts the age and sexuality thing way in the stratosphere. Remember, the theory would be they hadn't just done this once.

Another point is the actual crime. Are we to assume he sexually assaulted his sister with no outcry from her, whanged her on the head and then....did what? He would no longer be digitally penetrating her, he'd be at the hitting her on the head moment. Maybe John and Patsy heard and saw what he did. Maybe he woke them up and told them. Either way, there was no outward evidence of anything but the head wound, are we to assume Burke admitted to hitting her on the head and molesting her (both before and after)? He had to have admitted to the sexual assault/abuse otherwise the garotte would never have happened. The conversation would have had to be extensive so they would know how she was penetrated and if there would be evidence from other types of penetration they would have to take care of. Then on top of all of this we are to assume he admitted all to his parents and said nothing ever after.
No way.

There are just too many leaps for Burke to be responsible. I also find it interesting that he has remained so quiet

 

[UKGuy]

But why go to a garrotte? That's the monkey wrench for me. Why not just strangle her with the cord instead of fashioning a garrotte?

2 percent,
Precisely because its staging. The stager is fabricating a crime scene not creating one, so there is usually some kind of embellishment or flourish, which in the stagers mind adds some kind of realism to the fake crime-scene. This will be more pertinent if JonBenet was assaulted internally with the paintbrush handle thereby lending itself to some kind of psychopathic fetishtic behavour?

So JonBenet was staged to look as if she had been sexually assaulted by the paintbrush handle then asphyxiated but with paintbrush handle added to the ligature, rather than being used directly.

I reckon the clues are in those things that were staged, i.e. there function was to hide whatever came before?

.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM and respectfully snipped. I don't see what Burke being awak has to do with proving that JR was fully aware of what was going on.
He heard Patsy screaiming just as they both said So his natural reaction is to have her call 911. So Burke woke up and asked what they found. How does that prove John was in on the staging?

In your scenario who is the killer?

chlban,
Because JR colludes with BR immediately telling him his role and to return to bed and fake being asleep. Later he magics BR out of the house, why so if he innocent?

The most consistent theory is BDI, it explains quite a lot of the evidence, so its BR.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Burke is on the young side for being a molester. It's not unheard of by any means but a 9 year old being a sexual aggressor is outside the norm.
I also think his behavior doesn't fit. Again, I don't think a 9 year old can muster up enough sexual need. So this is about curiosity, I presume. Why was Burke never curious about anyone else, before or after? Sexual fetishes don't just disappear overnight. Why wouldn't he prey on girls his own age, kissing and playing doctor? One reason would be JB being the curious one, being sexually the aggressor. But then that puts the age and sexuality thing way in the stratosphere. Remember, the theory would be they hadn't just done this once.

Another point is the actual crime. Are we to assume he sexually assaulted his sister with no outcry from her, whanged her on the head and then....did what? He would no longer be digitally penetrating her, he'd be at the hitting her on the head moment. Maybe John and Patsy heard and saw what he did. Maybe he woke them up and told them. Either way, there was no outward evidence of anything but the head wound, are we to assume Burke admitted to hitting her on the head and molesting her (both before and after)? He had to have admitted to the sexual assault/abuse otherwise the garotte would never have happened. The conversation would have had to be extensive so they would know how she was penetrated and if there would be evidence from other types of penetration they would have to take care of. Then on top of all of this we are to assume he admitted all to his parents and said nothing ever after.
No way.

There are just too many leaps for Burke to be responsible. I also find it interesting that he has remained so quiet

2 percent,
Nobody but the person who whacked JonBenet on the head knew she had a head injury it was not revealed until the autopsy!

BR likely did some preliminary staging before telling his parents that JonBenet had an accident and fell down the stairs, or off a chair?

Digital penetration fits a young childs profile better than it does an adults. The sexual assault may not have been discovered immediately but towards the end, due to bleeding, requiring further staging , i.e. size-12's and a wipe down as per Coroner Meyer's remarks.

The big hole in the theory is the chronic abuse, was the same person who assaulted JonBenet on 12/25/1996 the same person responsible for the chronic abuse, or was the acute assault staged to mask the chronic abuse?

.

 

[chlban]

chlban,
Because JR colludes with BR immediately telling him his role and to return to bed and fake being asleep. Later he magics BR out of the house, why so if he innocent?

The most consistent theory is BDI, it explains quite a lot of the evidence, so its BR.

.

I certainly concede that is possible and, I have said before, the lie about his being asleep adds credence to that theory. So, you think Burke did it and both parents staged?

I have heard it theorized before that the joint staging is the reason the RN got past John. As in he didn't see it because he was working on other things.

 

[UKGuy]

I certainly concede that is possible and, I have said before, the lie about his being asleep adds credence to that theory. So, you think Burke did it and both parents staged?

I have heard it theorized before that the joint staging is the reason the RN got past John. As in he didn't see it because he was working on other things.

chlban,

So, you think Burke did it and both parents staged?

Yes, it accounts for many odd details including the possibility that BR's pants were found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, q.v. Kolar.

The RN likely flew under JR's radar as he was busy unstaging either his own or Patsy's prior staging, e.g. broken window, chair, suitcase all explained away by JR, PR could not explain away the size-12's suggesting either BR or JR added those, and if they were in the basement as intended gifts, then BR knew this since earlier Christmas Day he was down in the basement looking through those gifts, q.v. Kolar.

Both JDI and PDI are full of unexplained evidence.

.

 

[2 percent]

2 percent,
Nobody but the person who whacked JonBenet on the head knew she had a head injury it was not revealed until the autopsy!

I'm not sure I understand your point. If Burke hit her, he knew. If John and Patsy didn't know then the assumption would be they staged an elaborate cover up for Burke without knowing about the head wound or the sexual assault since neither were outwardly obvious. I find that very unlikely.

If I had to guess a brother would be more willing to say he hit his sister with a flashlight and can't wake her up than to admit he was fondling her. But the staging was definitely for the sexual assault. I don't think Burke could have convinced them the fondling caused her to collapse. Also even if the head injury wasn't visually obvious a crack like that would be obvious to the touch. I think if Burke did this and the parents staged it all, they knew exactly what they were dealing with.

BR likely did some preliminary staging before telling his parents that JonBenet had an accident and fell down the stairs, or off a chair?

Maybe. But that didn't last long. He certainly didn't make a garotte, slowly twist it and write a 3 page note with "attache", "exhausting" and "fat cat" and he wouldn't have made the note about his dad and not JB.
What staging do you think he did?

Digital penetration fits a young childs profile better than it does an adults. The sexual assault may not have been discovered immediately but towards the end, due to bleeding, requiring further staging , i.e. size-12's and a wipe down as per Coroner Meyer's remarks.

I don't agree. Molesters, especially ones that prey on family and close friends, don't go for the end result immediately. While a child may be more curious with their hands, they are more clumsy. I think the specific erosion pattern shows more control than a curious child would have.
And an adult who is grooming a child would definitely probe with fingers and/or small devices before full blown intercourse. If intercourse was the goal, that is.

The big hole in the theory is the chronic abuse, was the same person who assaulted JonBenet on 12/25/1996 the same person responsible for the chronic abuse, or was the acute assault staged to mask the chronic abuse?

In my mind this murder has always been about the sexual assaults. Not wetting the bed or playing doctor or even sibling uproar.

 

[Anti-K]

2 percent,
Precisely because its staging. The stager is fabricating a crime scene not creating one, so there is usually some kind of embellishment or flourish, which in the stagers mind adds some kind of realism to the fake crime-scene. This will be more pertinent if JonBenet was assaulted internally with the paintbrush handle thereby lending itself to some kind of psychopathic fetishtic behavour?

So JonBenet was staged to look as if she had been sexually assaulted by the paintbrush handle then asphyxiated but with paintbrush handle added to the ligature, rather than being used directly.

I reckon the clues are in those things that were staged, i.e. there function was to hide whatever came before?

.

Ah, but the garrote was not staged; it was real. And, the sexual assault, which occurred at or near point of death was not staged; it was also real.

Also, Jonbenet was not staged to appear “as if she had been sexually assaulted by the paintbrush handle.” In fact, she was not staged to appear sexually assaulted in any way, shape or form.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I certainly concede that is possible and, I have said before, the lie about his being asleep adds credence to that theory. So, you think Burke did it and both parents staged?

I have heard it theorized before that the joint staging is the reason the RN got past John. As in he didn't see it because he was working on other things.

Was it a lie?

I realize that some people have bought into, even claim to have heard, Burke’s voice at the end of the 911 call; but, the supposed voices/conversation at the end of the tape are not facts. Yes, some people claim to hear something, that much is true, but what is heard is an entirely different matter. As I recall it, several “groups” had a go at enhancing and studying that tape and the majority view was that Burkes’ voice was not present. Alternative explanations abound. Sometimes, I wonder if the 911 tape isn’t more evidence of people’s imagination (I buried paul) as anything.

Could burke have been awake, in his room, without anyone knowing it? Of course.
..

It defies all reason for Mrs Ramsey to write a ransom note, fake a kidnapping and then call 911 with the body in the house
...

AK

 

[bettybaby00]

chlban,
If you accept that BR was awake and was heard speaking to JR on the 911 call, then JR was fully aware what was going on. I interpret the tension between JR and PR that morning as likely due to PR resenting JR amending her staging and changing everyone's roles?

The 911 call was not made immediately. It was preceded by hours of staging, and restaging, JonBenet was long dead by the time it was all finished.

If JonBenet had next to no injuries, i.e. contusions and abrasions then I could buy a PDI along the lines of Steve Thomas. Collectively the injuries do not add up to a single instance of rage where PR whacks JonBenet in anger. JonBenet also has bruising beneath the circumferential ligature, so someone made that, not a ligature, otherwise there should be some matching pressure point somewhere else.

A convincing PDI might have PR throttling JonBenet, she then loses conciousness, falling onto some hard object thereby cracking her skull, and the ligature is staging to mask everything that went before, PR never knew the extent of JonBenet's head injury, it was invisible until the coroner pulled her scalp back!

.

BBM

IA in the sense that john knew jonbenet was dead. JRs response to Burke's questions doesn't jive with the "your sister's been kidnapped" scenario IMO. Anger isn't the response a father would exhibit to an innocent child. According to the revised account of that morning, "Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," and, "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

If true why would john lash out at his son in such a way?

 

[dodie20]

I think the garroting was genuine too, but what I see, wasn't necessarily sexual, but more as a way for the killer to distance him/herself from the strangling. And then he might have left everything as is, because he planned to dispose of the body. As for the Rs not being suspicious of each other, here's something to consider...in the early reports from LE that day, it was reported that the Rs didn't speak to or comfort each other, so IMO, one or the other might have been angry and or suspicious. One reason I don't think BR was involved, is because he seemed to tell the truth, even when it meant going against his parent's statements. I don't want to pick and choose which statements of his to believe, so it's either all or nothing...so I choose to believe what he said. moo

 

[bettybaby00]

Was it a lie?

I realize that some people have bought into, even claim to have heard, Burke’s voice at the end of the 911 call; but, the supposed voices/conversation at the end of the tape are not facts. Yes, some people claim to hear something, that much is true, but what is heard is an entirely different matter. As I recall it, several “groups” had a go at enhancing and studying that tape and the majority view was that Burkes’ voice was not present. Alternative explanations abound. Sometimes, I wonder if the 911 tape isn’t more evidence of people’s imagination (I buried paul) as anything.

Could burke have been awake, in his room, without anyone knowing it? Of course.
..

It defies all reason for Mrs Ramsey to write a ransom note, fake a kidnapping and then call 911 with the body in the house
...

AK

the 911 operator (Archuleta) is the first to alert authorities of the additional conversation at the end of the call.

Upon hearing of JonBenét’s murder, Archuleta nearly became ill. A supervisor directed her to her office where she sat and tried to calm her emotions. She could not get past the notion that something had been wrong about the 911 call and it had been there, troubling her subconscious during her days off. Archuleta asked her supervisor if police had listened to the 911 tape and was told that they had already obtained a copy of the recording: “What about the end of the call? Have they listened to the tail end of the call after Patsy Ramsey had stopped talking?” The supervisor looked back at Archuleta with a puzzled look on her face. “What are you talking about?” she asked. The 911 call didn’t end when Patsy stopped talking to her, Archuleta explained. The telephone line had not disconnected immediately, and she had heard a definite change in the tone of Patsy Ramsey’s voice before the call was fully terminated. Archuleta explained that the hysterical nature of Patsy Ramsey’s voice appeared to have dissipated, and she thought that she had been talking to someone nearby at her end of the telephone line. Investigators needed to listen to that extended part of the 911 call, Archuleta told her supervisor.

The 911 tape was subsequently sent to the Aerospace Corporation located in Los Angeles, California, and technicians determined that there was an additional several seconds of recording at the tail end of the call before the recording had been fully terminated. It was theorized that Patsy Ramsey had placed the handset of the telephone into its wall mounted cradle after discontinuing her conversation with the dispatch center, but that it had not fully settled into place to disconnect the call. Aerospace technicians were tasked with attempting to enhance the tail end of the 911 call to determine if the voices heard there could be better understood. Through a series of electronic washings, technicians were able to reduce the background noise associated with the transmission of the telephone call and identified three distinct voices conversing at the tail end of the 911 call. Several technicians listened to the enhanced version of the tape and compared notes on what they thought they had heard. EACH TECHNICIAN REPORTEDLY HAD HEARD THE SAME CONVERSATION. It was time to call Boulder authorities. Boulder Police detective Melissa Hickman flew to California in late April 1997, and met with the technicians. She, too, was provided the opportunity to listen independently to the enhanced version of the 911 tape. After Hickman has listened to the tape several times, she shared her observations of what she thought had been overheard with the technicians. Producing a previous set of handwritten notes, the technicians revealed their interpretation of the words spoken by the voices heard on the tail end of the tape. They all stared in amazement. Everyone who had listened to the enhanced version of the 911 tape had independently identified the same words and gender of the people speaking them. There were three distinct voices heard on the tape and the conversation was identified as follows: Male (angry): “We’re not speaking to you!” Female: “Help me Jesus. Help me Jesus” Young male: “Well, what did you find?” The discovery of this conversation, taking place in the family home after Patsy Ramsey thought she had terminated her 911 call, was of significant importance. It was a piece of evidence that pointed to deception on the part of the Ramsey family. They had continued to maintain throughout their statements that Burke had remained asleep in his bedroom during the events of the morning and that they had never awakened him or asked him questions About JonBenet's kidnapping

Kolar/Foreign Faction (emphasis mine)

Not sure what "groups" you are referring to that hold the "majority view that Burke's voice was not present."

 

[UKGuy]

Ah, but the garrote was not staged; it was real. And, the sexual assault, which occurred at or near point of death was not staged; it was also real.

Also, Jonbenet was not staged to appear “as if she had been sexually assaulted by the paintbrush handle.” In fact, she was not staged to appear sexually assaulted in any way, shape or form.
...

AK

Anti-K,
Please explain how you know these things, i.e. cite evidential sources please, otherwise I'll just assume your assertions are mere opinion!

.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM

IA in the sense that john knew jonbenet was dead. JRs response to Burke's questions doesn't jive with the "your sister's been kidnapped" scenario IMO. Anger isn't the response a father would exhibit to an innocent child. According to the revised account of that morning, "Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," and, "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

If true why would john lash out at his son in such a way?

bettybaby00,
Because JR wishes to control the flow of events, so he and PR are not talking to BR right at that moment, i.e. 911 call event, its a signal to BR that JR is really serious, and BR basically has to behave, with the implicit suggestion that JR and PR will have discussion later on. Meantime BR is requested to play his role i.e. shutup and go to sleep until awakened by whomever?

.