Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

[Lorelilly]

33 DOCTOR VISITS IN 36 MONTHS. So, JonBenet was seen by Dr. Beuf once every 32.72 days for 3 years. Red flags should have going off all over the place! I would assume even the nurses at Dr. Beufs would have sensed something wasn't quite right yet nothing was said or done. This part of the JonBenet tragedy is so sad. Had anyone actually done their JOB she may still be with us today.

 

[Mitsana]

I am also curious about the purported staging and to what degree it may be considered an acute observation.

The ransom note does warn that the culprits are "familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics."

Is it possible that one of the culprits either had a detective for a father or uncle (or aunt), or was a Criminal Justice major at UC?

Why would the culprits think to stage a sexual assault unless they were deliberately trying to misdirect LE as to their real motive for being in the Ramsey home that evening?

For IDI theories, staging has less application. For RDI theories, staging is intended to create the impression of IDI and if a chronic abuser were involved in the staging, that person might try to disguise previous abuse with a more extreme instance. Additionally, "undoing" may have taken place which would also confuse the crime scene.

moo.

 

[dodie20]

33 DOCTOR VISITS IN 36 MONTHS. So, JonBenet was seen by Dr. Beuf once every 32.72 days for 3 years. Red flags should have going off all over the place! I would assume even the nurses at Dr. Beufs would have sensed something wasn't quite right yet nothing was said or done. This part of the JonBenet tragedy is so sad. Had anyone actually done their JOB she may still be with us today.

My daughter is just a little older than JonBenet, and 1996 wasn't the unenlightened dark ages. If I had taken my daughter to the dr that many times for vaginal problems, she would have been questioned and we would have been investigated. I think about the dr and nurses and the school and teachers, the Rs countless friends, the other 911 call where the cop just left, and I almost can't stand to think about all of the red flags and cries for help that were ignored. What were all of these people thinking? The neighbor who reported the scream said she thought the parents would deal with it, but oh my gosh, how ironic is that? I don't blame any of these people necessarily, because they were All probably thinking that the parents would take care of any problems...but that's kind of hard to do when the parents Are the problem. But I agree that certain people didn't do their JOBs. And nobody has had to answer for this.

 

[midwest mama]

Looking at it and the entire genital/anal area should be part of any pediatrician's examination if any type of abuse/molestation is suspected. And recurring vaginal irritations/infections are reason enough to suspect.

But as DeeDee points out here, it is "highly suspicious" (understatement) that Dr. Beuf would threaten to destroy records rather than turn them over to investigators. What?!!

And also (as she mentioned) that he would unequivocally state that she had not been sexually abused after having also stated he had never examined her genitalia -- and this after repeated vaginal irritations/infections? Hello?

This jerk should be investigated! (But that won't happen, because he practices in Boulder.)

BBM - Color enhanced!

Snipped from an interview with Patsy in June 1998---
So JonBenet and I, I don't know,
25 maybe at bath time, maybe when I was putting on
0097
1 her bathing suit or something. You know, these
2 are JonBenet's private parts here, you know,
3 where the bathing suit touches and nobody ever
4 touches your private parts except mommy and
5 Dr. Buff with mommy in the room.
6 TOM HANEY: About when would you
7 have started conveying this idea to her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably when she
9 was four.
10 TOM HANEY: And did you rehash it
11 with her, did you talk about it occasionally?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was
13 not a big, you know, deal. I mean Burke was
14 growing up, you know, becoming a little more
15 modest and so we would say, you know, you know,
16 that's Burke's bathroom. If he is in the
17 bathroom, you don't just barge in on somebody in
18 the bathroom. You knock and, you know. Those
19 kind of family kind of situations.
20 TOM HANEY: But her private parts,
21 as you were describing it, this wasn't I assume
22 a one-time conversation?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, I
24 probably mentioned it more than once. It wasn't
25 something I preached on every day, you know. It
0098
1 was kind of a --
2 TOM HANEY: Did she raise any
3 questions about that at the time or any time
4 since?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: It was pretty clear to
7 her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
9 TOM HANEY: And your rules were you
10 or Dr. Buff, if you were in the room?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.

So, Patsy had the discussion with JB more than once that her "parts" under the bathing suit were not to be touched by anyone other than her (Patsy) or DR. Beuf with mom in the room. And she started telling her at what age???

Now why, if Dr. Beuf had not been examining her genitals would she have had to tell JB it was OK for the Dr. to touch her there?

Is it possible, after all, that Patsy was raised to understand and accept that sexual participation (aka molestation) between a little girl and older males was just a part of life that had to be tolerated? But, near the time of JB's death, she had decided enough was enough (maybe her growing faith was bolstering her?) and had begun to let the offenders know JB was going to be off limits?

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

I'm just trying to picture 3 people sitting around the Ramsey house downstairs working on a ransom note with no concern of the parents or Burke discovering them during any of that time... Especially since they were already stumbled upon by JonBenet, when they thought the family was supposed to be gone in the first place. So they have no trouble hanging around, these 2 or 3 burglars, downstairs writing the note, with the family upstairs...

If they can kill a six year-old girl, they can kill the entire family, which they probably would have done if any more Ramseys had discovered them in the house.

 

[Anyhoo]

I just re-read Steve Thomas's theory of the crime and despite my belief in the possibility that BR inflicted head bash and parents committed/staged murder, Thomas's PDI theory is the most consistent, rational theory out there based on the available evidence.

But there is one part of Thomas's timeline that confuses me. In his theory, JBR awakens after wetting the bed. His theory does not seem to be clear in terms of whether he believes PR was in bed at this point. He later says that he believes PR never went to bed that night--that she was in the same clothes and makeup as the previous night because she never changed clothes.

If this is true, where was she between the time the kids and JR went to bed and the time JBR woke up?

Also, is there any evidence that JR and PR ever slept in separate beds? This would help explain if JR woke to find her not in bed and thought nothing of it.

To me, these are the only real hurdles in ST's theory. What physical evidence there is points to Patsy.

Where can this timeline be found so I can read it to know what is being discussed? Thanks.

 

[wonderllama]

If they can kill a six year-old girl, they can kill the entire family, which they probably would have done if any more Ramseys had discovered them in the house.

Pure speculation.
Speculation that someone else was in the house.
Speculation that more than ONE someone was in the house.
Speculation that these someones would probably have killed the entire family.

Come off it.
IDI are very big on trying to refute claims made by RDI by claiming it's all opinion and speculation...and then you drag this out?

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

Pure speculation.
Speculation that someone else was in the house.
Speculation that more than ONE someone was in the house.
Speculation that these someones would probably have killed the entire family.

Come off it.
IDI are very big on trying to refute claims made by RDI by claiming it's all opinion and speculation...and then you drag this out?

Not speculation, logic and logical inference. There's a difference.

1. If the Ramseys did not kill JonBenet, then it is only logical that an intruder or intruders killed her for she surely did not kill herself.

2. Anyone who can brutally murder a six year-old girl is a very sick, very dangerous person. Therefore, one can logically infer that such a person (or persons) is just as capable of killing an entire family.

Do you follow?

 

[dodie20]

Not speculation, logic and logical inference. There's a difference.

1. If the Ramseys did not kill JonBenet, then it is only logical that an intruder or intruders killed her for she surely did not kill herself.

2. Anyone who can brutally murder a six year-old girl is a very sick, very dangerous person. Therefore, one can logically infer that such a person (or persons) is just as capable of killing an entire family.

Do you follow?

All this was going on and nobody heard a thing. People upstairs, downstairs, in the kitchen eating pineapple, bobbing around with a flashlight, in and out of the basement, bashing a screaming child, raping and murdering her, sitting around leisurely writing a 3 page note, all the while trying to burglarize, and at some point, sneaking into PR's room to borrow her clothes and then afterwards, returning them. But nobody heard a thing? even though BR admitted that he normally heard the sound of the refrigerator being opened.

 

[BOESP]

<snip>
2. Anyone who can brutally murder a six year-old girl is a very sick, very dangerous person. Therefore, one can logically infer that such a person (or persons) is just as capable of killing an entire family.

Do you follow?

BBM. Interesting comment ED3. It sounds a lot like the assessment Linda Arndt made when she saw John Ramsey coming up from the basement and then mentally counted the bullets in her holster because of Ramsey's demeanor. She said she didn't know how many people might still be alive when reinforcements arrived later at the Ramsey home.

But, many of your statements are sweeping generalizations.

 

[dodie20]

Not speculation, logic and logical inference. There's a difference.

1. If the Ramseys did not kill JonBenet, then it is only logical that an intruder or intruders killed her for she surely did not kill herself.

2. Anyone who can brutally murder a six year-old girl is a very sick, very dangerous person. Therefore, one can logically infer that such a person (or persons) is just as capable of killing an entire family.

Do you follow?

and here's something else to consider. The Rs have been a little iffy on times, so when they went to bed is in question. But even if they're right on the money with the times, (which I doubt), they still wouldn't have been in such a sound sleep, to not hear a thing. It's not like they went to bed at 9 and then this happened at 3am. All of the things that happened, took a long time...starting with the digestion of the pineapple, on to the head bash, to the basement horror, to the letter writing. Because of the pineapple digestion, the murder had to have occurred shortly after they all 'went to bed'. Somebody would have heard something. Also, JR admitted that BR pretended to sleep during the 911, (something he claimed to have learned during the grand jury), so I have to wonder, (using logic here). Exactly how long was this pretense? And here's another thing. JR claimed to have awakened a little before the alarm. Really? The same over the counter sleep aid that konked him out to the point of not being able to hear multiple intruders murdering his daughter, didn't konk him out enough to need the alarm? He just woke up on his own and took a shower. mmm hmmm. Now THAT is not logical.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

All this was going on and nobody heard a thing. People upstairs, downstairs, in the kitchen eating pineapple, bobbing around with a flashlight, in and out of the basement...

This was Christmas Night. Most parents and children are quite exhausted. It would not be beyond the realm of possibility that John, Patsy, and Burke were fast asleep and did not hear a thing. Recall that John and Patsy's bedroom is on the third floor.

bashing a screaming child, raping and murdering her, sitting around leisurely writing a 3 page note, all the while trying to burglarize,

The body was found in a windowless wine cellar in the deepest recesses of the home. Since it appears that JonBenet was garroted at the same time she was bludgeoned, there likely was no screaming, and even if there were, it is unlikely that anyone would have heard it.

The plea by the female intruder to kidnap JonBenet rather than kill her was a sincere one. Unfortunately, she did not know that all the while she was writing the note, her male accomplice was busy murdering JonBenet.

and at some point, sneaking into PR's room to borrow her clothes and then afterwards, returning them.

?????????????

But nobody heard a thing? even though BR admitted that he normally heard the sound of the refrigerator being opened.

Normally, perhaps, but not after being up for two days due to the excitement of Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, and then falling into a deep sleep on Christmas Night.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

and here's something else to consider. The Rs have been a little iffy on times, so when they went to bed is in question. But even if they're right on the money with the times, (which I doubt), they still wouldn't have been in such a sound sleep, to not hear a thing. It's not like they went to bed at 9 and then this happened at 3am. All of the things that happened, took a long time...starting with the digestion of the pineapple, on to the head bash, to the basement horror, to the letter writing. Because of the pineapple digestion, the murder had to have occurred shortly after they all 'went to bed'. Somebody would have heard something. Also, JR admitted that BR pretended to sleep during the 911, (something he claimed to have learned during the grand jury), so I have to wonder, (using logic here). Exactly how long was this pretense? And here's another thing. JR claimed to have awakened a little before the alarm. Really? The same over the counter sleep aid that konked him out to the point of not being able to hear multiple intruders murdering his daughter, didn't konk him out enough to need the alarm? He just woke up on his own and took a shower. mmm hmmm. Now THAT is not logical.

It is entirely possible that they fell asleep around 11pm, and the burglars arrived just after midnight.

I cannot attest to JR's circadian rhythms, and I don't think you can either.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

BBM. Interesting comment ED3. It sounds a lot like the assessment Linda Arndt made when she saw John Ramsey coming up from the basement and then mentally counted the bullets in her holster because of Ramsey's demeanor. She said she didn't know how many people might still be alive when reinforcements arrived later at the Ramsey home.

But, many of your statements are sweeping generalizations.

Of course, this is the same Linda Arndt that foolishly directed JR to search the house, with the end result of a highly compromised crime scene.

And, then you suggest that we should value her judgment regarding JR's culpability.

 

[dodie20]

It is entirely possible that they fell asleep around 11pm, and the burglars arrived just after midnight.

I cannot attest to JR's circadian rhythms, and I don't think you can either.

No, I personally can't attest to JR's circadian rhythms, (whatever that means...I'll google it later), that's why I'm going by what JR, himself said about his own sleep. Exhausted? I doubt it, if he woke up on his own, before an alarm that was set for something like 5:30 am. Except for BR pretending to sleep, I don't see any proof that any of this family went to bed or slept that night. BR said that JB was awake and walked into the house, and along with him pretending to sleep, well, that's all I believe. As for the Rs claiming this or that, which version do we go with? As for me, I've decided to go with BR's. moo

 

[dodie20]

This was Christmas Night. Most parents and children are quite exhausted. It would not be beyond the realm of possibility that John, Patsy, and Burke were fast asleep and did not hear a thing. Recall that John and Patsy's bedroom is on the third floor.



The body was found in a windowless wine cellar in the deepest recesses of the home. Since it appears that JonBenet was garroted at the same time she was bludgeoned, there likely was no screaming, and even if there were, it is unlikely that anyone would have heard it.

The plea by the female intruder to kidnap JonBenet rather than kill her was a sincere one. Unfortunately, she did not know that all the while she was writing the note, her male accomplice was busy murdering JonBenet.



?????????????



Normally, perhaps, but not after being up for two days due to the excitement of Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, and then falling into a deep sleep on Christmas Night.

JonBenet was garroted at the same time as being bludgeoned? How would that even work? and why wouldn't she scream? If you're trying to say that she was garroted before being bashed, maybe, but scientific evidence says the bash came 1st, and then much later she was strangled to death with the garotte. And a neighbor DID report a scream, a report I happen to believe...because her husband, (who she woke up BECAUSE of the scream), is the neighbor who reported the metal/concrete noise. I'm not an IDI theorist, but if I were, these are 2 stories I might choose to believe. Because just maybe, that metal noise, was an 'intruder' escaping from the basement window. But to believe the 2nd story, they'd have to believe the 1st, and the idea of the Rs sleeping through their daughter's blood curdling scream, is just too unbelievable...so it's best to just ignore both stories. IMO, the basis for most IDI theory isn't about an intruder, (not really), it's about the Rs and what wonderful parents they were, how much they suffered, and how only an imbecile would dare suspect them...oh yeah, I almost forgot, and how incompetent the cops were. If there was an intruder, where's the proof? And Proof isn't about trying to tear down the RDI theory, proof is proof, and I still haven't seen any. I'm not saying IDI theorists don't have the right to their opinions, because they most definitely do, but it has been 16 years, and still, after all these years, what I see as evidence, leads right back to the Rs. moo

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

JonBenet was garroted at the same time as being bludgeoned? How would that even work?

Very simply. The garrote is applied to keep bleeding to a minimum. She is then smashed over the head with a crowbar when she starts flailing her limbs.

and why wouldn't she scream?

Because screaming is impossible with a garrote around one's throat.

If you're trying to say that she was garroted before being bashed, maybe, but scientific evidence says the bash came 1st, and then much later she was strangled to death with the garotte.

Not according to Cyril Wecht. Of course, it could have been the other way around, but I suspect that there would have been significant blood splatter considering the damage to the skull expressed in the autopsy photo.

And a neighbor DID report a scream, a report I happen to believe...because her husband, (who she woke up BECAUSE of the scream), is the neighbor who reported the metal/concrete noise. I'm not an IDI theorist, but if I were, these are 2 stories I might choose to believe. Because just maybe, that metal noise, was an 'intruder' escaping from the basement window.

If there was a scream, it was likely from the female burglar, upon her discovering that her psycho boyfriend had murdered JonBenet while she was writing the ransom note. The sound of metal clanging on concrete could have been caused by a crowbar being dropped on the basement floor.

 

[DeeDee249]

It was metal SCRAPING concrete. Possibly the paint cans that were in the middle of the winecellar floor being moved to make room for her body.

 

[wengr]

Because screaming is impossible with a garrote around one's throat.

Do you have anything to show that the garrote as applied to JBR would prevent her from screaming?

Not according to Cyril Wecht. Of course, it could have been the other way around, but I suspect that there would have been significant blood splatter considering the damage to the skull expressed in the autopsy photo.

How would blood splatter through an undamaged scalp?

 

[redheadedgal]

How would blood splatter through an undamaged scalp?

it can't... but getting bashed on the head by a tire iron or crow bar DOES damage a scalp as i posted in the other thread... so either of those items as the head bash weapon are ruled out.