Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

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DNA Solves

Is Steven Avery responsible for the murder of Teresa Halbach?

  • He did it

    Votes: 253 29.7%
  • Some other guy did it

    Votes: 67 7.9%
  • Looks guilty at this point

    Votes: 74 8.7%
  • Not guilty based on evidence I've seen thus far

    Votes: 195 22.9%
  • Undecided, but believe new trial is in order

    Votes: 254 29.8%
  • Undecided all around; more information required

    Votes: 55 6.5%

  • Total voters
    852
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The jurors didn't give consideration to the possibility that evidence could have been planted and SA framed. They didn't think outside the box and think, "Hey, why was there none of TH's blood, DNA, hair, found it SA's bedroom if she was murdered in there? Why was there no blood or other evidence other than the bullet in the garage?" Plus, plus, plus. And everything you mentioned in your last paragraph...all could have happened due to framing. MOO.

How do you know the jurors didn't discuss things the defense alleged? You'd have to have been in that jury room at the time of their deliberations to know. The jurors heard everything the defense team said, they sat through all the evidence and witnesses. Just because they didn't buy that theory doesn't mean the jury didn't do exactly as they were instructed to do. They rendered a unanimous decision.
 
How do you know the jurors didn't discuss things the defense alleged? You'd have to have been in that jury room at the time of their deliberations to know. The jurors heard everything the defense team said, they sat through all the evidence and witnesses. Just because they didn't buy that theory doesn't mean the jury didn't do exactly as they were instructed to do. They rendered a unanimous decision.

It was in the documentary that the first vote was 7-5 not guilty in Avery's trial. I'd like to know what swayed the 7 over to guilty after sitting through the entire trial.
 
Split votes when the jury gets started are quite common. It's rare that a jury starts out all in agreement or 11-1. It happens, but it's more the exception than the rule. The process of deliberation is a mystery because what goes on behind those closed doors is not something the public gets to see.
 
Split votes when the jury gets started are quite common. It's rare that a jury starts out all in agreement or 11-1. It happens, but it's more the exception than the rule. The process of deliberation is a mystery because what goes on behind those closed doors is not something the public gets to see.

Maybe so, but I'd like to know what the initial jury vote was in SA's first trial.
 
I think it confuses people when a crime unfolds and the perp doesn't do things someone else might expect them to do (or not do). There is also the element of dumb luck that can sometimes come into play.

If no DNA is found of the victim in SA's bedroom, then she must either have not been in there or didn't leave any of her DNA on items that were tested. What happened to those sheets that were on SA's bed? (were they burned too?).

TH was with SA, TH did most likely die that day, and her body was burned and her personal items were burned and her SUV was parked on the property and obscured with items from that property.

There's no evidence pointing elsewhere except in people's imaginations. I'm open to seeing any verified evidence that leads to a different perp. Not imagined evidence from fantasy scenarios, but actual evidence.

Ok, so is it still evidence if the LE entered the property without a proper warrant?

"In the United States and other countries, evidence may be excluded from a trial if it is the result of illegal activity by law enforcement, such as a search conducted without a warrant. Such illegal evidence is known as the fruit of the poisonous tree and is normally not permitted at trial."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_(law)
 
What are you referring to, exactly?

When did LE enter the property and begin searching illegally without permission or a warrant?
 
Ok, so why on earth would SA keep a .22 rifle above his bed if he used to kill TH?
 
At the 2007 trial, the defense was asking the jury to defy logic, ignore concrete evidence, and to rely on speculation when making their decision. The laundry list of inculpatory evidence has been presented on this thread, so I would like to focus on the conspiracy narrative put forth by the defense at trial.

HALBACH'S KEY: Deputy Kucharski testified that he was sitting on Avery's bed with his feet pointing towards where the key was found. Lieutenant Lenk momentarily leaves the room, comes back, and tells Kurcharski that he sees a key on the floor. How did Lenk manage to plant that key in that location without Kurcharski noticing Lenk's alleged slight of hand? In addition, how did Lenk manage to place Avery's DNA on that key? Buting suggested that Lenk or another officer scrubbed the key with Avery's tootbrush. This red herring was an attempt to distract the jury from the prosaic argument that the last person to touch the key was the person who killed Teresa Halbach.

HALBACH'S VEHICLE: The Netflix documentary gives the impression that only one officer was in charge of protecing the scene where Halbach's vehicle was found. The fact is that 5 officers took turns watching the vehicle. They include Deputy Peter O'Conner, Sergeant Orth, Lieutenant Hermann, Detective Remiker, and Sergeant Tyson. To a man, they state that nobody entered the vehicle prior to its transport to a garage in Madison. The vehicle was locked when found by Pam Sturm and her daughter Nikole, and it remained locked until two days later when investigators opened the vehicle for forensic analysis.

The defense initimated that Avery's blood was planted in the vehicle before it was discovered on the Avery compound. The problem with that theory is that it flies in the face of their claim that the police did not murder Teresa Halbach. Buting and Strang wanted it both ways, but reality came back to bite them. The vehicle was covered in yard debris so that it wouldn't be discovered, yet wouldn't the conspirators have wanted the vehicle to be found? If you're going to pin the blame on Avery, you want that vehicle to be in plain sight, yet the car is covered and the license plates are removed.

HALBACH'S BONES: The theory put forth by the defense at trial was that Teresa was murdered and burned at an unknown location. Her bones are then broken up, placed in a burn barrel found on Janda's property, the small bones are deposited on Avery's property, the larger bones are left in the burn barrel, and that barrel is returned to Janda's property. Where to begin? Mythical conspirators somehow were able to place bones and burn Halbach's cell phone/palm pilot/digital camera in Avery's burn barrel without Avery seeing a darn thing. These conspirators also play psychic by knowing that they are going to have to consume Teresa's body in a large fire because in a few hours, Avery will be setting a large fire on his property.

These conspirators were also able to return the Janda burn barrel without Avery or any member of the Janda clan witnessing the return of this stolen item. The fact that fragments from every single bone beneath the neck were found in Avery's fire pit, indicates that this pit is where Teresa's body was burned. This rules out other potential burn sites and points the finger at Steven Avery as being the individual who placed the larger bones in his sister's burn barrel. The quarry issue was proven to be utter nonsense at trial. Dr. Eisenberg, Dr. Fairgrieve, and Les McCurdy from the FBI's DNA lab all testified that the bones found at the quarry could not be positively identified as being human.

HALBACH'S DNA ON BULLET FRAGMENT: The defense argued that since no bullet fragment with Halbach's DNA on it was found in the garage during prior searches, the fragment was planted by law enforcement. The testimony indicates that prior searches did not include the moving of items in that cluttered garage. The discovery of the bullet fragment involved an investigator moving several items and getting on his hands and knees prior to finding the bullet fragment. As is briefly shown in the NetFlix documentary, there was a 3-4 foot area in that garage that lit up like a Christmas tree when sprayed with Luminal. This test did not detect blood, but bleach.

On the day of the murders, Brenden Dassey's mother asked him why there were bleach stains on his clothing. Brenden told her he was helping his uncle clean the garage. This is just one of many examples of suspects in this case exhibiting a "consciousness of guilt." This is similar to Avery attempting to create an alibi by calling Halbach's employer at 4:35 PM and stating that Teresa had not yet arrived for her photo session. How conspirators could place Halbach's DNA on a bullet fragment that was sourced to Avery's .22 rifle is its own form of science fiction.
 
At the 2007 trial, the defense was asking the jury to defy logic, ignore concrete evidence, and to rely on speculation when making their decision. The laundry list of inculpatory evidence has been presented on this thread, so I would like to focus on the conspiracy narrative put forth by the defense at trial.

HALBACH'S KEY: Deputy Kucharski testified that he was sitting on Avery's bed with his feet pointing towards where the key was found. Lieutenant Lenk momentarily leaves the room, comes back, and tells Kurcharski that he sees a key on the floor. How did Lenk manage to plant that key in that location without Kurcharski noticing Lenk's alleged slight of hand? In addition, how did Lenk manage to place Avery's DNA on that key? Buting suggested that Lenk or another officer scrubbed the key with Avery's tootbrush. This red herring was an attempt to distract the jury from the prosaic argument that the last person to touch the key was the person who killed Teresa Halbach.

HALBACH'S VEHICLE: The Netflix documentary gives the impression that only one officer was in charge of protecing the scene where Halbach's vehicle was found. The fact is that 5 officers took turns watching the vehicle. They include Deputy Peter O'Conner, Sergeant Orth, Lieutenant Hermann, Detective Remiker, and Sergeant Tyson. To a man, they state that nobody entered the vehicle prior to its transport to a garage in Madison. The vehicle was locked when found by Pam Sturm and her daughter Nikole, and it remained locked until two days later when investigators opened the vehicle for forensic analysis.

The defense initimated that Avery's blood was planted in the vehicle before it was discovered on the Avery compound. The problem with that theory is that it flies in the face of their claim that the police did not murder Teresa Halbach. Buting and Strang wanted it both ways, but reality came back to bite them. The vehicle was covered in yard debris so that it wouldn't be discovered, yet wouldn't the conspirators have wanted the vehicle to be found? If you're going to pin the blame on Avery, you want that vehicle to be in plain sight, yet the car is covered and the license plates are removed.

HALBACH'S BONES: The theory put forth by the defense at trial was that Teresa was murdered and burned at an unknown location. Her bones are then broken up, placed in a burn barrel found on Janda's property, the small bones are deposited on Avery's property, the larger bones are left in the burn barrel, and that barrel is returned to Janda's property. Where to begin? Mythical conspirators somehow were able to place bones and burn Halbach's cell phone/palm pilot/digital camera in Avery's burn barrel without Avery seeing a darn thing. These conspirators also play psychic by knowing that they are going to have to consume Teresa's body in a large fire because in a few hours, Avery will be setting a large fire on his property.

These conspirators were also able to return the Janda burn barrel without Avery or any member of the Janda clan witnessing the return of this stolen item. The fact that fragments from every single bone beneath the neck were found in Avery's fire pit, indicates that this pit is where Teresa's body was burned. This rules out other potential burn sites and points the finger at Steven Avery as being the individual who placed the larger bones in his sister's burn barrel. The quarry issue was proven to be utter nonsense at trial. Dr. Eisenberg, Dr. Fairgrieve, and Les McCurdy from the FBI's DNA lab all testified that the bones found at the quarry could not be positively identified as being human.

HALBACH'S DNA ON BULLET FRAGMENT: The defense argued that since no bullet fragment with Halbach's DNA on it was found in the garage during prior searches, the fragment was planted by law enforcement. The testimony indicates that prior searches did not include the moving of items in that cluttered garage. The discovery of the bullet fragment involved an investigator moving several items and getting on his hands and knees prior to finding the bullet fragment. As is briefly shown in the NetFlix documentary, there was a 3-4 foot area in that garage that lit up like a Christmas tree when sprayed with Luminal. This test did not detect blood, but bleach.

On the day of the murders, Brenden Dassey's mother asked him why there were bleach stains on his clothing. Brenden told her he was helping his uncle clean the garage. This is just one of many examples of suspects in this case exhibiting a "consciousness of guilt." This is similar to Avery attempting to create an alibi by calling Halbach's employer at 4:35 PM and stating that Teresa had not yet arrived for her photo session. How conspirators could place Halbach's DNA on a bullet fragment that was sourced to Avery's .22 rifle is its own form of science fiction.

Some brief responses for you ...

HALBACH's KEY - How do you know the key wasn't planted before the search you speak of took place ?

HALBACH's CAR - How do you know the blood evidence/DNA was not planted before the car was "found" and LE was guarding the car ?

HALBACH'S BONES - How do you know Steven Avery was home at the time the bones could have been planted in the burn barrel and pit ?

HALBACH'S DNA - How do you know for certain the DNA was not put on the bullet and planted in the garage ?

BTW, chlorine bleach does not eliminate the presence of hemoglobin in the Luminol test . So if Brendan has used chlorine bleach to clean the garage, TH's blood would still be detectable on the garage floor. And I don't believe any of TH's DNA was found on Brendan's clothes.
 
SUSTAINED: Considering the fact that...

- There were several cursory searches of Avery's residence prior to the discovery of Halbach's key
- Several officers not named Lenk did not see the key in that location or any other location inside Avery's residence
- Logic dictates that if the key was planted, it was planted on the day it was discovered
- Strang, Buting, and other Avery supporters have speculated that Lenk dropped the key on the floor prior to leaving the room

...a conspiracy theorist would have to implicate Lenk in the murder of Teresa Halbach. If Lenk wasn't involved in Teresa's murder, how did he gain access to the key? How was he able to place Avery's DNA on the key? If you give me the toothbrush theory, I will scream. LOL.

The same logic applies to Avery's blood being found in Halbach's vehicle. To give any credence to this theory, one must leap over a number of logistical hurdles and place speculation above the documented (e.g., chain of custody, timeline issues) record. To question whether Avery was home when these conspirators deposited Halbach's bones in the fire pit/Janda Burn Barrel No.2, is to legitimize a long line of coincidences (e.g., Teresa's body consumed by fire, Avery started a bonfire only a few hours after he claims she left his property) and believe that the "real" perps were somehow blessed with an abundance of luck and real world psychic ability.

I don't know for sure whether law enforcement did or didn't plant the bullet fragment in the garage, so I chose to focus on what I DO know. I DO know that a bullet fragment matching a .22 rifle owned by Avery was found in Avery's garage. I DO know that Teresa Halbach's DNA was found on the bullet fragment. I DO know that Brenden Dassey had bleach stains on his clothing on 10/31/05, his mother noticed the stains, and Dassey stated he was helping his uncle clean his garage. I DO know that a 3-4 foot area in Avery's garage began to glow after being sprayed with Luminal. I DO know that the glow was a reaction to bleach on the garage floor. Do you believe that all of these factors are a mere coincidence? I don't.
 
SUSTAINED: Considering the fact that...

- There were several cursory searches of Avery's residence prior to the discovery of Halbach's key
- Several officers not named Lenk did not see the key in that location or any other location inside Avery's residence
- Logic dictates that if the key was planted, it was planted on the day it was discovered
- Strang, Buting, and other Avery supporters have speculated that Lenk dropped the key on the floor prior to leaving the room

...a conspiracy theorist would have to implicate Lenk in the murder of Teresa Halbach. If Lenk wasn't involved in Teresa's murder, how did he gain access to the key? How was he able to place Avery's DNA on the key? If you give me the toothbrush theory, I will scream. LOL.

The same logic applies to Avery's blood being found in Halbach's vehicle. To give any credence to this theory, one must leap over a number of logistical hurdles and place speculation above the documented (e.g., chain of custody, timeline issues) record. To question whether Avery was home when these conspirators deposited Halbach's bones in the fire pit/Janda Burn Barrel No.2, is to legitimize a long line of coincidences (e.g., Teresa's body consumed by fire, Avery started a bonfire only a few hours after he claims she left his property) and believe that the "real" perps were somehow blessed with an abundance of luck and real world psychic ability.

I don't know for sure whether law enforcement did or didn't plant the bullet fragment in the garage, so I chose to focus on what I DO know. I DO know that a bullet fragment matching a .22 rifle owned by Avery was found in Avery's garage. I DO know that Teresa Halbach's DNA was found on the bullet fragment. I DO know that Brenden Dassey had bleach stains on his clothing on 10/31/05, his mother noticed the stains, and Dassey stated he was helping his uncle clean his garage. I DO know that a 3-4 foot area in Avery's garage began to glow after being sprayed with Luminal. I DO know that the glow was a reaction to bleach on the garage floor. Do you believe that all of these factors are a mere coincidence? I don't.

Why would have Lenk have to be involved in TH's murder to help frame SA ? Lenk reported to someone, didn't he ? He could've just been doing what he was ordered to do. As for the key, SA's DNA would have been easily accessible all over SA's trailer and the bigger question is why wasn't TH's DNA found on the key ?

The chain of custody is not even relevant as the RAV4 was found around 10:30 am on 11/5. What happened before the car was found is extremely relevant - does anyone really know what happened to the RAV4 between the afternoon of 10/31 and the morning of 11/5 ?

Did they find any of SA's fingerprints/DNA on the steering wheel ? So his DNA shows up on the hood latch, but not on the steering wheel/door handles/rear hatch as he would've been the one to drive the car to the back of the salvage yard. We know TH was in the back of the SUV due to the blood stain, so who opened the hatch ? Better yet, let's assume SA is smart enough and say he wiped the steering wheel clean ... did he forget to wipe up the obvious bloodstains in the vehicle ? And why would SA remove the battery cable knowing then the car was on the Avery property and could not be moved until it was replaced ?

Were BD's jeans ever tested for bleach stains ? LE never found any of TH's DNA/blood in the garage and we know that chlorine bleach does not eliminate the presence of hemoglobin in a blood stain. But certain bleaches in and of themselves may cause a false positive when using Luminol.
None of TH's DNA or blood was ever found in the garage and if she was shot there, there would have been some blood spatter. I found it hard to believe a 16-year-old could clean up a bloody crime scene and not get any of TH's blood on his pants/sneakers especially since some bleach was found on them.
 
Why would police (and Lenk, who alleged to have planted the key), need to remove TH's skin cells/DNA from her own key? Wouldn't they want that key to be linked to TH? Even if, as is alleged, Lenk endeavored to find some of Avery's sweat to plant on the key, he wouldn't have needed to remove any of TH's DNA.

The removal of TH's DNA is to give the impression this Toyota key is just a random auto key, certainly not connected to TH or her SUV. Unless someone actually tested to see if that key would open and operate her SUV, LE wouldn't know just by looking at it.

Removal of TH DNA benefits SA (not LE).
 
Why would police (and Lenk, who alleged to have planted the key), need to remove TH's skin cells/DNA from her own key? Wouldn't they want that key to be linked to TH? Even if, as is alleged, Lenk endeavored to find some of Avery's sweat to plant on the key, he wouldn't have needed to remove any of TH's DNA.

The removal of TH's DNA is to give the impression this Toyota key is just a random auto key, certainly not connected to TH or her SUV. Unless someone actually tested to see if that key would open and operate her SUV, LE wouldn't know just by looking at it.

Removal of TH DNA benefits SA (not LE).

Not if the person planting the key had touched it without gloves. The fact the key has no Halbach DNA, DNA that should certainly be on it if she handled it every day, suggests the key was cleaned before Avery's DNA ended up on it. Now, who would want to clean the key?
 
Avery would benefit if there was no TH DNA on that key. How does LE benefit from no TH on that key?

TH + Avery DNA on same key = very strong evidence

Avery DNA only on that key owned/used by TH = huh? <insert confusion & conspiracy>

TH DNA only on that key = no proof SA ever touched that key.

"Oh this key? This is just some Toyota key from one of the clunkers that was brought in..."
 
Avery would benefit if there was no TH DNA on that key. How does LE benefit from no TH on that key?

TH + Avery DNA on same key = very strong evidence

Avery DNA only on that key owned/used by TH = huh? <insert confusion & conspiracy>

TH DNA only on that key = no proof SA ever touched that key.

"Oh this key? This is just some Toyota key from one of the clunkers that was brought in..."

How would Avery benefit from no Halbach DNA on it? The key would end up linked to Halbach just by the fact it starts her vehicle no matter what. The only person who benefits from the key being wiped would be the person who didn't want their DNA on it. Can't be Avery because his DNA was on it.
 
Avery would benefit if there was no TH DNA on that key. How does LE benefit from no TH on that key?

TH + Avery DNA on same key = very strong evidence

Avery DNA only on that key owned/used by TH = huh? <insert confusion & conspiracy>

TH DNA only on that key = no proof SA ever touched that key.

"Oh this key? This is just some Toyota key from one of the clunkers that was brought in..."

Avery loses either way as he was convicted of the crime with the key as an important piece of evidence. I still wondering why LE never reported on testing any other Toyota keys from Avery Salvage as the possible key to the RAV4. Instead, LE magically finds the RAV4 in Avery's tiny bedroom on 11/8 after a few other searches and declares it "an important piece of evidence". Assuming TH's DNA was on the key, it's a stretch to think Avery somehow cleansed the key of TH's DNA and then left his own. Especially since he left blood/DNA in multiple locations in/on the RAV4.
 
Why would LE need to remove TH's DNA from her own car key? That makes no sense. TH DNA on her own key would be expected. If SA's DNA is on the key in addition, that's compelling. One person's DNA doesn't turn into someone else's.

Why would someone want TH's key to not have TH's DNA on it?
 
Why would LE need to remove TH's DNA from her own car key? That makes no sense. TH DNA on her own key would be expected. If SA's DNA is on the key in addition, that's compelling. One person's DNA doesn't turn into someone else's.

Why would someone want TH's key to not have TH's DNA on it?

Why would SA remove TH's DNA from the key and leave his only his own ? I'm no DNA expert, but I would think commingling of DNA might cause an issue with test results. And assuming the key was cleansed, we don't know if other folks also had handled the key. Will try and find a link, but I remember reading something about commingled DNA and bad results from the 9/11 tragedy.

IMO, having only SA's DNA on the key guarantees a positive DNA hit.
 
The implication is LE would be able to definitively plant SA's sweat/skin cells on the key. Not his blood, but his skin cells. DNA is invisible to the naked eye. I note that no one suggested that SA's sweat/skin cells were 'planted' on the hood latch of TH's SUV, though some allege transfer from SA's vehicle because the evidence technician might not have (or didn't) change his/her gloves.
 
Why would police (and Lenk, who alleged to have planted the key), need to remove TH's skin cells/DNA from her own key? Wouldn't they want that key to be linked to TH? Even if, as is alleged, Lenk endeavored to find some of Avery's sweat to plant on the key, he wouldn't have needed to remove any of TH's DNA.

The removal of TH's DNA is to give the impression this Toyota key is just a random auto key, certainly not connected to TH or her SUV. Unless someone actually tested to see if that key would open and operate her SUV, LE wouldn't know just by looking at it.

Removal of TH DNA benefits SA (not LE).

Unless "key planter" was worried about their own DNA on the key. Grabbed it without a glove maybe? Cleaned it, and didn't even have to plant SA's DNA on it, they could have hit the slippers or if nothing else from the floor, it's very possible that is where the DNA came from. The DNA could have just been a bonus LOL Finding the key would have been good enough for evidence, no?

btw... isn't it possible it was AC that put the key there when Lenk left the room and the other guy was busy doing paperwork? I don't think it HAD to be Lenk.
 
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