Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[Sinsaint]

Why would LE need to remove TH's DNA from her own car key? That makes no sense. TH DNA on her own key would be expected. If SA's DNA is on the key in addition, that's compelling. One person's DNA doesn't turn into someone else's.

Why would someone want TH's key to not have TH's DNA on it?

As mentioned by Missy, it isn't about LE wanted to remove Halbach's DNA from the key. It's about LE wanting to remove their own possible DNA on it. And it wouldn't be difficult to then plant Avery's DNA on it. If I recall correctly Colborn and Lenk were both processing the bathroom just prior to the key showing up. The bathroom would be ripe with sources for Avery's DNA... Toothbrush, toilet, any handles or knobs, sweaty socks, armpit of dirty shirt, etc.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The implication is LE would be able to definitively plant SA's sweat/skin cells on the key. Not his blood, but his skin cells. DNA is invisible to the naked eye. I note that no one suggested that SA's sweat/skin cells were 'planted' on the hood latch of TH's SUV, though some allege transfer from SA's vehicle because the evidence technician might not have (or didn't) change his/her gloves.

When taking the framing aspect into account it makes no sense to me they would remove all of Theresa's DNA from it. Why would they do that? It was her key after all. All they would have to do is put his DNA on top of it showing he was the last one to touch it. The forensic experts have said in past cases that the last one to touch an item without gloves will usually result in the strongest DNA profile depending on the type of surface of the item. They have specifically mentioned sweat too and how it can leave a DNA profile when skin cells fluff off along with the dripping sweat. If the DNA found on the key came from his sweaty hand then I can see how it would remove DNA belonging to Theresa.

I have never heard of any case showing only skin cells or sweat can be planted. How can that happen.. when as you say... you cant even see skin cells visually with the naked eye? It seems to me this kind of DNA is transferred due to the DNA being wet at the time of contact such as saliva, sweat, or sperm then probably skin cells would be present.

I do believe Avery was sweating profusely that day. Didn't one of the witnesses who saw him say he was sweaty? He either touched the hood latch with his sweaty hand or his head or hair was wet with sweat when he was under the hood removing her battery cable imo and it brushed up against the hood latch. Skin cells would surely be present. imo

For him to be innocent every piece of forensic evidence linking him to the crime would have had to be planted. All of the witnesses would have to be lying including his own family. I just find that very illogical.

Also his defense attorneys tried to dispute the FBI testing where it showed it had no additive in the blood taken from the crime scene. They tried to say it was unreliable yet in the OJ murder case way back in the early 90s this very same test was done and admitted into court by the presiding Judge. If Barry Sheck didn't believe the test was reliable he would have said so way back then and he is an expert in this field. So it seems this same kind of testing has been done for many years now. I bet there are other cases too where the Judge allowed the testing results to be entered at trial since many DTs claim the police framed their client and planted evidence.

Also they tried to make a big deal out of the vial having a puncture hole in the stopper yet never thinking about how the blood would get into the vial in the first place. What did they think that it was poured in somehow? Surely they could have asked an expert or someone who does blood work on patients to find out that simple answer?

IMO

 

[shadowraiths]

I do believe Avery was sweating profusely that day. Didn't one of the witnesses who saw him say he was sweaty? He either touched the hood latch with his sweaty hand or his head or hair was wet with sweat when he was under the hood removing her battery cable imo and it brushed up against the hood latch.

Fyi, there is no such thing as "sweat DNA." See this article from University of South Carolina law professor, quoted below:

Yes. It is well established that "sweat contains no DNA." Brief of Appellee, Ashcraft v. State of Indiana, 2012 WL 4937683 (Ind.App. 2012). That said, "people often slough off skin cells containing DNA when they sweat; thus, DNA is often present on articles of clothing, including hats." State v. Norman, 2003 WL 22999499 (Ohip App. 2003).​

As for the person who raised the "Steven Avery was sweating" was Kratz. Which is why several memes have popped up on various social media sites ridiculing Kratz with regard to his repeated "sweat" comments.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't believe Avery will be granted a new trial since all of this was brought out in the first trial.

But I would actually like to see this case tried over again. Many years have passed now and the experts can detect many things they couldn't even back in 2005. So the Prosecutor (whomever that may be) will get a chance to do further testing. In all cases all the forensic evidence found at a crime scene/s is never tested 100%. The labs would be overburdened if every little thing was tested. So there sure could be even more new evidence found than what was entered in the last trial.

The rule of thumb on retrials says it usually goes better for the State than the defendant. By then the state has seen the theory put forth by the defense already. So I think experts will look even closer for evidence that may not have been tested last time.

So I have no problem with Avery getting a new trial.

I also think Brendan should get a new trial for I think he was fearful and intimidated by his ruthless Uncle into doing this. I do believe he had already had bad things happen to him by the man he feared. His own mother mentioned how Avery was always making Brendan to do things and the way she said it, imo, implied it was things he felt he was forced into doing that he really didn't want to do.

I believe Brendan was abused by Avery both emotionally and sexually and maybe even physically. He shouldn't have been convicted of first degree and the DT should have put forth that he only did these things because he was forced to do so by a man he greatly feared. If anything he should get voluntary manslaughter. I do not think he wanted to do any of this to Theresa at all. I think he felt if he didn't do this Avery would also harm him too.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Fyi, there is no such thing as "sweat DNA." See this article from University of South Carolina law professor, quoted below:

Yes. It is well established that "sweat contains no DNA." Brief of Appellee, Ashcraft v. State of Indiana, 2012 WL 4937683 (Ind.App. 2012). That said, "people often slough off skin cells containing DNA when they sweat; thus, DNA is often present on articles of clothing, including hats." State v. Norman, 2003 WL 22999499 (Ohip App. 2003).​

As for the person who raised the "Steven Avery was sweating" was Kratz. Which is why several memes have popped up on various social media sites ridiculing Kratz with regard to his repeated "sweat" comments.

Okay, thank you Shadowraiths.

I am sorry I misspoke then and its skin cells that drop off when a person is sweating. I do remember cases where the forensic experts have discussed sweat before and identifiable skin cells.

Oh I thought I read that one of the witnesses said he was sweating.

Off to read more on the sweat/skin cells and more of the transcripts.

 

[Madeleine74]

When taking the framing aspect into account it makes no sense to me they would remove all of Theresa's DNA from it. Why would they do that? It was her key after all. All they would have to do is put his DNA on top of it showing he was the last one to touch it.

Exactly! Just as I opined above. Removing existing DNA from the key doesn't make sense. If police are corrupt enough to plant evidence and frame SA, then they're surely smart enough to know to handle TH's key with gloves. And still no one has shown where LE got that key from in the first place?

When the answer back is, "well it could have happened..." that's not proof. That's fantasy. That key's origins has to go back to being put in LE's hands before it ended up in SA's trailer and not just an assumption it happened. Who/When/Where. If that can't be done, then proof doesn't exist and it remains a fantasy.

 

[Juniorsleuther]

New here ! Now I have been debating over this case for some time and I believe SA did kill TH. Why because deep down inside he was capable of it ! I think SA lead TH off into the junk yard to take more pics of another vehicle he's idea of spending time with her. I think he made an advance to her she then turned him down! and bam rape ! I think at this point he was crazy that he couldn't let her go because of his past of being in jail for rape that he decided to kill her ! I think the actual murder spot was in the salvage yard he burned the bones out in that burn barel brought some remains back to his fire. Got rid of her car. The reason the key had just SA on it because he cleaned it. Leaving only his! Why he kept the rav 4 is beyond me. Mabey sell it? I don't think Stephen Avery was the smartest or the brightest ! I truly think he felt they wouldn't suspect him because of his past wrong conviction!

 

[ElleElle]

As mentioned by Missy, it isn't about LE wanted to remove Halbach's DNA from the key. It's about LE wanting to remove their own possible DNA on it. And it wouldn't be difficult to then plant Avery's DNA on it. If I recall correctly Colborn and Lenk were both processing the bathroom just prior to the key showing up. The bathroom would be ripe with sources for Avery's DNA... Toothbrush, toilet, any handles or knobs, sweaty socks, armpit of dirty shirt, etc.

BBM ~ But, according to Strang today, sweat does not contain DNA. But, I agree, it could come from any source in SAs trailer.

 

[Madeleine74]

Sweat ----> skin cells deposited ----> skin cells have DNA

source: https://www.quora.com/Does-human-sweat-contain-DNA

 

[ElleElle]

New here ! Now I have been debating over this case for some time and I believe SA did kill TH. Why because deep down inside he was capable of it ! I think SA lead TH off into the junk yard to take more pics of another vehicle he's idea of spending time with her. I think he made an advance to her she then turned him down! and bam rape ! I think at this point he was crazy that he couldn't let her go because of his past of being in jail for rape that he decided to kill her ! I think the actual murder spot was in the salvage yard he burned the bones out in that burn barel brought some remains back to his fire. Got rid of her car. The reason the key had just SA on it because he cleaned it. Leaving only his! Why he kept the rav 4 is beyond me. Mabey sell it? I don't think Stephen Avery was the smartest or the brightest ! I truly think he felt they wouldn't suspect him because of his past wrong conviction!

Ok, but why would he want to put himself is a position to go back to jail for murder? Don't you think 18 years of prison was enough for him? He also has no history of rape.

 

[Madeleine74]

Ok, but why would he want to put himself is a position to go back to jail for murder? Don't you think 18 years of prison was enough for him? He also has no history of rape.

Why would anyone who murders another want to put themselves in a position to go to prison? They don't. They don't think they'll get caught. The person who killed and burned TH's body down to little charred bits and made an effort to burn her personal effects was intending that her body not be found and they not be caught.

 

[Juniorsleuther]

I agree with that idea about prison but what I am proposing is he truly thought he wouldn't get caught ! Like double jeopardy idea, just a a reference !! In essence they wouldn't look at me they already threw me in jail and they were wrong they wouldn't dare try it again! I wanted to believe that SA was framed I couldn't get over the lack of physical evidence of the crime scene they proposed ! Her bones were his fire pit, her rav 4 in his slavage yard conviently a key turns up on the 8th search with his dna on it. His touch Dna on TH hood. SA blood right on the ignition. So many theories so many ways is could have went down. If anything and this is more suspicion that. Theory the Manitowac police could have helped along a conviction but in my own opinion SA did kill TH and unfortunately for him those involved nailed him to the wall! As for BD that boy was severely challenged and was compromised many times he shouldnt be in jail ! I think Steven Avery acted alone, and Brandon dassey was wrongfully convicted ! I realize he had no prior rape convictions but we have to realize that he spent most of his young life behind bars he did not have a opportunity to rape! I know that his wrongful conviction IMO would make us want to believe no way Stephen couldn't do this, but unfortunately he did IMO. Why ? rage???entitlement ??? Mabey a false sense of self ??? especially the hype the community and town gave to him. Who knows what made him do it. He had no gf around she was in jail! TH possibly was a real nice girl and SA misinterpreted her friendliness for something else! Mabey he thought he had a chance with her, Mabey he obsessed over her and when she declined his advances he couldn't handle it. Raped and then murdered her ! Or he premeditated her rape and murder! But I am more convinced SA had an obsession with TH and truly thought she liked him! But clearly SA was delusional and could not handle the no thank you I'm not interested answer !

 

[Sinsaint]

BBM ~ But, according to Strang today, sweat does not contain DNA. But, I agree, it could come from any source in SAs trailer.

I use the term "sweat" loosely. Kratz was insistent that a "sweaty" Avery left that DNA behind and I just roll with it. Sweaty socks=skin cells. Sweaty armpits of a shirt=skin cells. Inside of slippers=skin cells. Just about anything that would rub against his skin would have a DNA source and that DNA source can be rubbed onto anything to transfer the skin cells.

 

[Murtagh21]

If, if, if. Assumption piled on top of speculation for the sole purpose of avoiding undiluted fact. All of the SOURCED evidence in this case points to Steven Avery as the person responsible for the death of Teresa Halbach. Avery's DNA is found in several critical locations which includes inside Halbach's vehicle, under the hood of that same vehicle, and on the key of that vehicle. A bullet fragment found in the garage is linked to a .22 rifle owned by Avery. Evidence of bevelling in skull fragments sourced to Halbach demonstrates that she was shot in the head at least twice.

IMO, that evidence alone would have convicted Avery, but when you add the evidence found in the fire pit; evidence found in the two burn barrels; Avery's attempts at creating an alibi, Halbach's DNA found on the bullet fragment, bloody transfer stain from Halbach's hair found inside her vehicle; and the fact that Avery was the last person to see Halbach alive, the case becomes open and shut.

 

[ElleElle]

Why would anyone who murders another want to put themselves in a position to go to prison? They don't. They don't think they'll get caught. The person who killed and burned TH's body down to little charred bits and made an effort to burn her personal effects was intending that her body not be found and they not be caught.

I think if one did not want to be caught, they would bury a body deep in the woods or even burn the body in its vehicle.

I just find it hard to believe he burnt her remains on his property.

 

[missy1974]

Exactly! Just as I opined above. Removing existing DNA from the key doesn't make sense. If police are corrupt enough to plant evidence and frame SA, then they're surely smart enough to know to handle TH's key with gloves. And still no one has shown where LE got that key from in the first place?

When the answer back is, "well it could have happened..." that's not proof. That's fantasy. That key's origins has to go back to being put in LE's hands before it ended up in SA's trailer and not just an assumption it happened. Who/When/Where. If that can't be done, then proof doesn't exist and it remains a fantasy.

BBM so that applies to Kratz right. His news conference where he very graphically detailed TH's last moments? There is no proof. It must have been fantasy.

People can be convicted on circumstantial evidence, but if there is a means or opportunity that LE planted anything, you need 100% proof. The other end of the lanyard was found in her RAV4. LE had that RAV4 on the 5th. The key was found on the 8th. Her set of keys was never found. Her family and business partner testified that she had a set. The key was found after already searching that area. IMO AC lied about roughly shaking and twisting and turning that shelf (no way the stuff on top would still be there the way it was). No TH DNA. (although did they ever test the clasp part of that key???? they wouldn't need to do that ) I also think it's possible that LE found the RAV4 before the searchers but realized that it was an illegal search.

 

[Murtagh21]

ELLE: The evidence demonstrates that not only did he burn her remains on his property, he burned her cell phone, palm pilot, and digital camera on his property as well. It is important to remember that Avery also used the same accelerant to burn ALL of these items. Steel belts from a tire or tires were found entwined with the victim's bones and a tire was discovered inside a burn barrel located 20 feet from Avery's front door. There is a reason why the Netflix filmmakers made no mention of the contents of the burn barrel and only a passing mention of tire belts being found in the fire pit. Of course, they left out the fact that the tire belts were entwined with the victim's bones, and that portions of the victim's clothing were also found in that fire pit.

 

[Juniorsleuther]

I agree with what your saying I believe IMO that SA and his 18 years In prison plight was his way out his reassurance his ignorance! And ultimately his demise, full of ego and had no brains! Like I stated above half his life was behind bars he only went to jail when he was 23 correct me if I am wrong! We cannot assume what little life he lived as a adult outside of prison is something that we can assume that because he never did it before why would he do it now! That's not enough life lived in the real world. SA is definable IMO and he deserves to be where he is !

 

[ElleElle]

I agree with that idea about prison but what I am proposing is he truly thought he wouldn't get caught ! Like double jeopardy idea, just a a reference !! In essence they wouldn't look at me they already threw me in jail and they were wrong they wouldn't dare try it again! I wanted to believe that SA was framed I couldn't get over the lack of physical evidence of the crime scene they proposed ! Her bones were his fire pit, her rav 4 in his slavage yard conviently a key turns up on the 8th search with his dna on it. His touch Dna on TH hood. SA blood right on the ignition. So many theories so many ways is could have went down. If anything and this is more suspicion that. Theory the Manitowac police could have helped along a conviction but in my own opinion SA did kill TH and unfortunately for him those involved nailed him to the wall! As for BD that boy was severely challenged and was compromised many times he shouldnt be in jail ! I think Steven Avery acted alone, and Brandon dassey was wrongfully convicted ! I realize he had no prior rape convictions but we have to realize that he spent most of his young life behind bars he did not have a opportunity to rape! I know that his wrongful conviction IMO would make us want to believe no way Stephen couldn't do this, but unfortunately he did IMO. Why ? rage???entitlement ??? Mabey a false sense of self ??? especially the hype the community and town gave to him. Who knows what made him do it. He had no gf around she was in jail! TH possibly was a real nice girl and SA misinterpreted her friendliness for something else! Mabey he thought he had a chance with her, Mabey he obsessed over her and when she declined his advances he couldn't handle it. Raped and then murdered her ! Or he premeditated her rape and murder! But I am more convinced SA had an obsession with TH and truly thought she liked him! But clearly SA was delusional and could not handle the no thank you I'm not interested answer !

:wagon: to our :gathering: !

 

[ElleElle]

If, if, if. Assumption piled on top of speculation for the sole purpose of avoiding undiluted fact. All of the SOURCED evidence in this case points to Steven Avery as the person responsible for the death of Teresa Halbach. Avery's DNA is found in several critical locations which includes inside Halbach's vehicle, under the hood of that same vehicle, and on the key of that vehicle. A bullet fragment found in the garage is linked to a .22 rifle owned by Avery. Evidence of bevelling in skull fragments sourced to Halbach demonstrates that she was shot in the head at least twice.

IMO, that evidence alone would have convicted Avery, but when you add the evidence found in the fire pit; evidence found in the two burn barrels; Avery's attempts at creating an alibi, Halbach's DNA found on the bullet fragment, bloody transfer stain from Halbach's hair found inside her vehicle; and the fact that Avery was the last person to see Halbach alive, the case becomes open and shut.

BBM~ Did I miss something? What alibi did he create?