Stranger Abduction Theories #2

[DreamyEye]

Portland just seems to be full of perverts, I don't mean to offend any locals as I am sure every place is. I guess I am frustrated after reading a frontpage story on katu.com about the great issue of banning perfumes from workplaces...how about we round up some sex offenders instead with all of that energy?

Where I live, in NM, they have frontpage debates about whether red or green chili is better, so I don't mean to pick on Portland, but I am sick of all of the crime, the victims, the bad laws and sentencing problems, parole violaters, people out on bail who should not be, etc...getting a handle on crime has to be #1.

If you're going by statistics, then Portland is likely no worse than any other city of comprable size. However, I do think think there is something peculiar about the Portand region. The only way I can think of to say it is that there seems to be some odd contradictions in the Portland culture.

You have Skyline Elementary School that is so 'progressive' that it's sponsoring this odd-type science fair, which I've heard referred to as a kind of 'scholarship' program. Progressive too in the way they've combined grades into joint classes.

But they don't have security cameras. They announce their science fair on a billboard in front of school, making it sound like an open house ... and everyone seems to know that the event is open to the public. On the day of the event, security is more lax than on an ordinary day rather than tighter ... and standard safety practices such as keeping track of which students are absent are allowed to be overlooked.

You have Kyron, whom some would regard as a privileged kid because he's living a lifestyle in which money doesn't seem to be an issue, and a higher than average level of security is afforded him. In my circle, Kryon's apparent lifestyle would be termed "sheltered." Daily life centers on the needs and activities of the children, the needs of the children are met first, and he's housed in an area that's regarded as reasonably secure.

And yet, if TH is not involved in his disappearance, then some stranger was able to abduct him from his school on one of its busiest days, and admist hundreds of people swarming the facility.

Sticking with the thought that TH is not responsible, this same 'secure, sheltered' kid who was abducted by some sort of criminal ALSO turns out to have a stepmother who is later accused of trying to carry out a MFH plot and becomes known for other unsavory activities like drinking excessively while in charge of a baby, and sexting. So if this scenario is true, it means that despite everyone's efforts to protect him, Kyron has closely contacted at least two people who are dangerous to children.

But if TH is the one behind Kyron's disappearance, LE has strongly suggested that more than one person was involved. So even under this scenario, Kyron has been accessed by at least two dastardly people. Despite being under the protection of a well-to-do father and living in a family-oriented, suburban community that has likely invested a great deal in the protection and education of its children.

Now I love Portland. It's my favorite desitination for a short vacation away from my home in Pierce Co WA. I could write pages and pages about all of the wonderful features and attractions--but especially about all of the friendly, helpful, interesting people I've met during every visit there.

And yet ... there is just something so bizarre about this crime, because no matter what scenario you come up with, Kyron has slipped through many cracks within many systems. Not just slipped through 'a' crack ... but through many cracks. It just doesn't fit with the Portland I know.

 

[Billylee]

Y

If you're going by statistics, then Portland is likely no worse than any other city of comprable size. However, I do think think there is something peculiar about the Portand region. The only way I can think of to say it is that there seems to be some odd contradictions in the Portland culture.

You have Skyline Elementary School that is so 'progressive' that it's sponsoring this odd-type science fair, which I've heard referred to as a kind of 'scholarship' program. Progressive too in the way they've combined grades into joint classes.

But they don't have security cameras. They announce their science fair on a billboard in front of school, making it sound like an open house ... and everyone seems to know that the event is open to the public. On the day of the event, security is more lax than on an ordinary day rather than tighter ... and standard safety practices such as keeping track of which students are absent are allowed to be overlooked.

You have Kyron, whom some would regard as a privileged kid because he's living a lifestyle in which money doesn't seem to be an issue, and a higher than average level of security is afforded him. In my circle, Kryon's apparent lifestyle would be termed "sheltered." Daily life centers on the needs and activities of the children, the needs of the children are met first, and he's housed in an area that's regarded as reasonably secure.

And yet, if TH is not involved in his disappearance, then some stranger was able to abduct him from his school on one of its busiest days, and admist hundreds of people swarming the facility.

Sticking with the thought that TH is not responsible, this same 'secure, sheltered' kid who was abducted by some sort of criminal ALSO turns out to have a stepmother who is later accused of trying to carry out a MFH plot and becomes known for other unsavory activities like drinking excessively while in charge of a baby, and sexting. So if this scenario is true, it means that despite everyone's efforts to protect him, Kyron has closely contacted at least two people who are dangerous to children.

But if TH is the one behind Kyron's disappearance, LE has strongly suggested that more than one person was involved. So even under this scenario, Kyron has been accessed by at least two dastardly people. Despite being under the protection of a well-to-do father and living in a family-oriented, suburban community that has likely invested a great deal in the protection and education of its children.

Now I love Portland. It's my favorite desitination for a short vacation away from my home in Pierce Co WA. I could write pages and pages about all of the wonderful features and attractions--but especially about all of the friendly, helpful, interesting people I've met during every visit there.

And yet ... there is just something so bizarre about this crime, because no matter what scenario you come up with, Kyron has slipped through many cracks within many systems. Not just slipped through 'a' crack ... but through many cracks. It just doesn't fit with the Portland I know.

You make some interesting observations, DreamyEye, it sounds like Portland needs to re-evaluate their priorities. Perhaps the safety of the children was simply overlooked, while their education became the focus. I too, think Portland is a beautiful city, and I don't think there are any more pervs living there per capita than anwhere else. It's a shame that Kyron has, in effect, become their eye opener.

 

[pinktoes]

The only PDX-->Europe direct flight is that one; not the red flag you might think.

THanks for the info. So, my next question is: did he PLAN to be apprehended at the airport? Or was he simply unable to devise a more circuitous route? It's a mystery, for sure!

 

[GrainneDhu]

About 11 miles away
http://www.kgw.com/news/Scappoose-student-approached-by-stranger-116485378.html
“We have a report from a Scappoose Police Department of a student being approached by a stranger on his way to school this morning at approximately 8:15 a.m. A white male in his 20's pulled up in a newer, mid size "shiny" blue pickup with a canopy and knobby tires, telling him to get in."

What really struck me about this report was how relatively low drama this was. All the perpetrator did was ask the child to get into his truck, the boy kept on walking, got to school and told his teacher. If that kid had not said something at school about what had happened, would anyone have noticed or remembered seeing the incident? Probably not.

I have to wonder, if this kid had been a compliant sort of kid, particularly one whose family was working with him on obeying adults at school, what the results would have been.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Where I live, in NM, they have frontpage debates about whether red or green chili is better, so I don't mean to pick on Portland, but I am sick of all of the crime, the victims, the bad laws and sentencing problems, parole violaters, people out on bail who should not be, etc...getting a handle on crime has to be #1.

SBM

Last time I was in Albuquerque, I decided Christmas was best.

I think it's easy to get a really distorted picture from the msm about what every day conditions are in different places. I've had European friends ask what kind of handgun I own (I don't) because they have the impression from media reports that hand gun ownership in the US is nearly universal.

And a Scandinavian friend of mine punctured my fantasies when he told me that there are just as many so-so cafes and restaurants in France as there are on the east coast of the US! What!??? They're not all at least two Michelin stars???!!!

I think it has to be up to the people living in the area to decide what their priorities are. For instance, I come from a rural state with a highly regarded school system and relatively little unemployment (we're cruising at about 6% unemployment right now, just a hair above the normal of 5%).

I would hate for someone to come to my state and tell us that we have to focus on education and jobs or we'll all be dooooooomed! (because of course, if you don't care what some politician or pundit cares about, you're sure to be doomed).

And I still think Christmas is best.

 

[Aedrys]

What really struck me about this report was how relatively low drama this was. All the perpetrator did was ask the child to get into his truck, the boy kept on walking, got to school and told his teacher. If that kid had not said something at school about what had happened, would anyone have noticed or remembered seeing the incident? Probably not.

I have to wonder, if this kid had been a compliant sort of kid, particularly one whose family was working with him on obeying adults at school, what the results would have been.

I don't think teaching Kyron to obey meant teaching Kyron to throw out all of his faculties and obey the adults at the school blindly. I don't think it was, "Do whatever the adults say, no matter how stupid or scary it sounds." Would anyone teach their children to do that? Most of us teach our children to obey what makes sense, not if the teacher tells you to go jump off of a bridge, you better do it. Surely they also taught him about stranger danger, and if someone asks him to do something that doesn't feel right, he doesn't have to obey them. For instance, someone wanting him to leave school during the school day. I'm sure he was taught that he's not supposed to do that. He was probably taught to obey the adults in the context of being in school, doing schoolwork, and behaving. I know when I was younger, I was borderline ADHD and it was drilled into me to pay attention and obey the adults at school as far as doing my schoolwork and behaving. I was not taught to obey them blindly and do whatever they said to do regardless of the danger to myself or others.

While an abduction is possible, I'm not going to buy into that this boy was taught to blindly obey adults and do whatever they said like he was a robot. That's just taking it too far for me, and Kyron wasn't a stupid kid in my eyes. I don't think if someone from the school asked him to leave the school that he would just go and not question it, or that he would be more likely to go because he was being taught to obey the adults at school. His parents wouldn't teach him to do that one sided and just hope the adults at school never ask him to do something like leave in the middle of the day.

 

[CN2Souls]

This is how my county looks in most all streets, Parking lots and Shopping center, And especial SCHOOLS.












AND we still have missing children and adult that have never been found. :waitasec:

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Well,this case can go many ways.A pediaphile or someone associated with the school could have taken little Kyron.IF little Kyron left with Terri ( I really have not ruled her out just yet.Just nothing is really pointing to her for me) than I feel there was someone else very close to little Kyron possibly with them also.

 

[angelmom]

I don't think teaching Kyron to obey meant teaching Kyron to throw out all of his faculties and obey the adults at the school blindly. I don't think it was, "Do whatever the adults say, no matter how stupid or scary it sounds." Would anyone teach their children to do that? Most of us teach our children to obey what makes sense, not if the teacher tells you to go jump off of a bridge, you better do it. Surely they also taught him about stranger danger, and if someone asks him to do something that doesn't feel right, he doesn't have to obey them. For instance, someone wanting him to leave school during the school day. I'm sure he was taught that he's not supposed to do that. He was probably taught to obey the adults in the context of being in school, doing schoolwork, and behaving. I know when I was younger, I was borderline ADHD and it was drilled into me to pay attention and obey the adults at school as far as doing my schoolwork and behaving. I was not taught to obey them blindly and do whatever they said to do regardless of the danger to myself or others.

While an abduction is possible, I'm not going to buy into that this boy was taught to blindly obey adults and do whatever they said like he was a robot. That's just taking it too far for me, and Kyron wasn't a stupid kid in my eyes. I don't think if someone from the school asked him to leave the school that he would just go and not question it, or that he would be more likely to go because he was being taught to obey the adults at school. His parents wouldn't teach him to do that one sided and just hope the adults at school never ask him to do something like leave in the middle of the day.

I agree that they probably didn't intentionally teach this, but kids his age are very rule oriented and have a hard time determining the gray area with things like this.

The example I use all the time is from when I was 18 and working at a daycare/summer camp program with 5-8 year olds. There was an ongoing problem with tattling, so the teacher before me made a rule of "no tattling or both people will go to time out." Of course the children were taught over and over that there was a difference between "tattling" and telling about something dangerous or important.

One day a mom came to me all upset because her child had fingernail scratches under his shirt that had broken the skin. When asked why he didn't tell anyone, he explained that not only was it against the "no tattling" rule, but that the other child had actually used it against him by saying, "If you tell you'll get in trouble for tattling." Even though getting scratched on purpose bad enough to make his back bleed had to be worse than a time out, and even though we thought we had explained the difference between those two situations, the 7yo boy still was afraid to tell. He was being tormented by this other child until his mother noticed the scratches.

I think it's entirely possible that Kyron would have gone with an adult who "ordered" him or asked him nicely for help. I also think that if someone Kyron knows was involved, they might have used that against him by saying something like, "don't make me tell your dad that you weren't listening to me." Adults think kids get these nuances, but in reality they usually don't.

This statement about working with Kyron about following directions has always bothered me, although it doesn't really tell us anything about whether it was a stranger abduction or someone he knew. It could have been used against him either way, and without the perp even realizing it.

 

[Aedrys]

I agree that they probably didn't intentionally teach this, but kids his age are very rule oriented and have a hard time determining the gray area with things like this.

The example I use all the time is from when I was 18 and working at a daycare/summer camp program with 5-8 year olds. There was an ongoing problem with tattling, so the teacher before me made a rule of "no tattling or both people will go to time out." Of course the children were taught over and over that there was a difference between "tattling" and telling about something dangerous or important.

One day a mom came to me all upset because her child had fingernail scratches under his shirt that had broken the skin. When asked why he didn't tell anyone, he explained that not only was it against the "no tattling" rule, but that the other child had actually used it against him by saying, "If you tell you'll get in trouble for tattling." Even though getting scratched on purpose bad enough to make his back bleed had to be worse than a time out, and even though we thought we had explained the difference between those two situations, the 7yo boy still was afraid to tell. He was being tormented by this other child until his mother noticed the scratches.

I think it's entirely possible that Kyron would have gone with an adult who "ordered" him or asked him nicely for help. I also think that if someone Kyron knows was involved, they might have used that against him by saying something like, "don't make me tell your dad that you weren't listening to me." Adults think kids get these nuances, but in reality they usually don't.

This statement about working with Kyron about following directions has always bothered me, although it doesn't really tell us anything about whether it was a stranger abduction or someone he knew. It could have been used against him either way, and without the perp even realizing it.

You could be right, but it feels like Kyron and his parents are to blame, then, for Kyron's disappearance. I'm not blaming Kyron or his parents for that. If some abducted him, TH or not, it is that person's fault, not Kyron's for obeying too well. Talk about blaming the victim for what happened to him. That is not fair at all. He was just as vulnerable as any kid in that school, even if he was being worked with on obeying the adults there. If he wasn't safe from a predator, then neither was any other kid, regardless of what they were taught or not. I don't think it would make a difference whether he was obedient or not, someone could have lured him or any other kid out of there, IMO.

 

[pdx]

THanks for the info. So, my next question is: did he PLAN to be apprehended at the airport? Or was he simply unable to devise a more circuitous route? It's a mystery, for sure!

sorry I missed your post yesterday..
LE was quite unclear about this, the media report says they don't know how Marshall's know he was on the flight.

My GUESS is that he let them know he was turning himself in. My only 'hmm' about that is that I *think* protocol would be for someone to escort him back. But you know, budget cuts & all that.
I suspect he planned to be apprehended at the Portland airport. For whatever that's worth, lol.

I have exercised great discipline and not been by his house..

 

[gwenabob]

Huh, okay, thanks. I'll take your word for it if you've got one that looks just like it. I've never seen a gas furnace vent so small. They usually look more like the other vents you'd see in that neighborhood. Similar to this.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...2&ndsp=9&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:12&biw=1024&bih=501

Well, the one on the bottom left is just a cap for ordinary fireplace flues to keep birds and rain out. The ones on the right are gas caps, and are tall because they aren't attached to the top of a chimney, which gives it the clearance needed without the extra piping. The cap on this fellow's house is just like the top part of the two on the right. The one on the top left looks different that ones you see around here. If the caption didn't say it was for heating, I would suspect it was an attic vent. Anyway, when an house with an old chimney is converted to a gas furnace around here, they just put one of those caps on the top. If you go down the street in that google photo you posted, you will see more houses with those caps.

 

[scandi]

sorry I missed your post yesterday..
LE was quite unclear about this, the media report says they don't know how Marshall's know he was on the flight.

My GUESS is that he let them know he was turning himself in. My only 'hmm' about that is that I *think* protocol would be for someone to escort him back. But you know, budget cuts & all that.
I suspect he planned to be apprehended at the Portland airport. For whatever that's worth, lol.

I have exercised great discipline and not been by his house..

Hi PDX, I've gone back and read the previous posts but can't find out who you're talking about plus, do you know why the roof vents were brought up. Call me :crazy: LOL

 

[GrainneDhu]

I don't think teaching Kyron to obey meant teaching Kyron to throw out all of his faculties and obey the adults at the school blindly. I don't think it was, "Do whatever the adults say, no matter how stupid or scary it sounds." Would anyone teach their children to do that? Most of us teach our children to obey what makes sense, not if the teacher tells you to go jump off of a bridge, you better do it. Surely they also taught him about stranger danger, and if someone asks him to do something that doesn't feel right, he doesn't have to obey them. For instance, someone wanting him to leave school during the school day. I'm sure he was taught that he's not supposed to do that. He was probably taught to obey the adults in the context of being in school, doing schoolwork, and behaving. I know when I was younger, I was borderline ADHD and it was drilled into me to pay attention and obey the adults at school as far as doing my schoolwork and behaving. I was not taught to obey them blindly and do whatever they said to do regardless of the danger to myself or others.

While an abduction is possible, I'm not going to buy into that this boy was taught to blindly obey adults and do whatever they said like he was a robot. That's just taking it too far for me, and Kyron wasn't a stupid kid in my eyes. I don't think if someone from the school asked him to leave the school that he would just go and not question it, or that he would be more likely to go because he was being taught to obey the adults at school. His parents wouldn't teach him to do that one sided and just hope the adults at school never ask him to do something like leave in the middle of the day.

I, too, greatly doubt Kyron was taught to blindly obey every adult he came into contact with. However, we do have it from KH and DY that they were working with him on obeying adults at school.

In an attempt to present my own views more accurately:

I've seen plenty of evidence that what adults think they are teaching children isn't always what the child is learning. I've posted several times a video clip of parents who swore their children understood stranger danger and then watched those children go off with a (planted) stranger perfectly happily. Those results have been replicated over and over.

Teaching children below age 12-15 or so exactly what a stranger is, how to identify a stranger, how to react to a stranger, is a very complex and difficult task. There are lots of studies that have shown that the majority of children think that strangers are people who look mean and scary, not someone who seems ordinary and nice. The threshold of 15 years old is conservatively low, in my opinion; there are constantly articles in the media pointing out how both teenagers and adults endanger themselves online with strangers because they don't accurately identify who a stranger is and what a stranger's intentions might be.

I think that if a stranger approached Kyron either inside the school or in the school parking lot and said something along the lines of "hey, your teacher said you'd help me bring some stuff in" or "your mom needs your help and sent me to bring you to her" that there is a very good chance he would have either approached that person or held still as that person approached him.

Once a relatively small child like Kyron is within arm's reach of a determined abductor, it's literally a matter of less than five seconds before that child disappears if there is a vehicle involved (as there was in the Scappoose incident).

 

[katydid23]

Well said GrainneDhu,
young children do tend to submit to an adults demands. ESPECIALLY in a school setting.

I said upstream in this thread somewhere that I did not think a stranger would choose a school setting to abduct a child. But the more I think about it, I am changing my mind.

Where else but a school are kids expected to follow directions and commands by all ofr the adults and where else are kids so feeling so SAFE that they would just assume they should obey?
In some ways a school is a perfect place to troll for a child. But only on a day with a special public event, like a Science Fair.

 

[GrainneDhu]

You could be right, but it feels like Kyron and his parents are to blame, then, for Kyron's disappearance. I'm not blaming Kyron or his parents for that. If some abducted him, TH or not, it is that person's fault, not Kyron's for obeying too well. Talk about blaming the victim for what happened to him. That is not fair at all. He was just as vulnerable as any kid in that school, even if he was being worked with on obeying the adults there. If he wasn't safe from a predator, then neither was any other kid, regardless of what they were taught or not. I don't think it would make a difference whether he was obedient or not, someone could have lured him or any other kid out of there, IMO.

My motives are far from blaming Kyron or his parents for his disappearance. What I am trying to do is figure out if there were any factors or conditions in his personality and life that would have helped a nonfamily perpetrator abduct him or not.

To me, it's just another factor without blame attached. Just like noting that he wore glasses and reportedly had very poor vision without them. It's just a factor that may have affected what happened to him. There's no blame or shame in having poor eyesight, it's just a fact, nothing more.

The victim's personal characteristics can be very important in solving a crime, so important that there's now a term for the study of the specific victim: victimology.

For example, if a specific victim lives in a big city with three locks on their front door in a building where visitors have to be buzzed in, it's much less likely that they would have opened the door to someone that they didn't know or would not have expected to see in their building (maintenance people, delivery people, etc).

But if a specific victim lives on a farm and is known to often invite strangers to come home for dinner, well, that makes it much more likely they would open their door to a complete stranger. Knowing that about the victim could change the direction of the investigation.

Neither individual is right or wrong and neither individual would deserve to be the victim of a crime.

Every crime victim is an individual and has individual characteristics, which can affect the likelihood of various scenarios. That doesn't mean that their individual characteristics are to blame.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Well said GrainneDhu,
young children do tend to submit to an adults demands. ESPECIALLY in a school setting.

I said upstream in this thread somewhere that I did not think a stranger would choose a school setting to abduct a child. But the more I think about it, I am changing my mind.

Where else but a school are kids expected to follow directions and commands by all ofr the adults and where else are kids so feeling so SAFE that they would just assume they should obey?
In some ways a school is a perfect place to troll for a child. But only on a day with a special public event, like a Science Fair.

BBM

When I think about it, children who are not obedient in school are often labelled as having behaviour disorders! So, you're exactly right, the norm is that children obey while in school.

I keep remembering that Ted Bundy abducted not just one victim but two from schools. One during a school play attended by approximately 1800 people (Debra Kent) and one during an ordinary school day (Kimberly Leach).

There have been other cases of children abducted on school grounds or attacked inside the school.

The one thing that makes me think that it is possible (though not highly probable) that Kyron was the victim of a nonfamily abductor is the thought that predators don't see the world the same way most people do. Predators tend to habitually scan for opportunities, even if they don't act on every opportunity they see.

So a predator tends to see the little gaps and lapses in security that completely escape most people.

Did a predator decide to scope out an event at Skyline School that was announced on the sign in front of the school? I don't know. I do believe it is possible. It could have been just a pattern of prowling, prowling, prowling and being ready to take advantage of an opportunity if one presented itself.

 

[katydid23]

BBM

When I think about it, children who are not obedient in school are often labelled as having behaviour disorders! So, you're exactly right, the norm is that children obey while in school.

I keep remembering that Ted Bundy abducted not just one victim but two from schools. One during a school play attended by approximately 1800 people (Debra Kent) and one during an ordinary school day (Kimberly Leach).

There have been other cases of children abducted on school grounds or attacked inside the school.

The one thing that makes me think that it is possible (though not highly probable) that Kyron was the victim of a nonfamily abductor is the thought that predators don't see the world the same way most people do. Predators tend to habitually scan for opportunities, even if they don't act on every opportunity they see.

So a predator tends to see the little gaps and lapses in security that completely escape most people.

Did a predator decide to scope out an event at Skyline School that was announced on the sign in front of the school? I don't know. I do believe it is possible. It could have been just a pattern of prowling, prowling, prowling and being ready to take advantage of an opportunity if one presented itself.

The main reason I have a hard time accepting fully a stranger abduction theory is that TH is such an obvious choice as a likely suspect. I can easily see her motives and her hinky behavior that morning as making her my number one choice.

However, it is possible that she just didn't get around to it before someone else did. And that particular day was a perfect opportunity for a sick perp to take action. I think Kyron may have run after her or someone else and found himself in a vulnerable situation in the parking lot.

 

[pdx]

Hi PDX, I've gone back and read the previous posts but can't find out who you're talking about plus, do you know why the roof vents were brought up. Call me :crazy: LOL

Morning, crazy. We were talking about Logan Storm, the middle school teach with the Interpol warrant. It's kind of a weird story; search his name in oregonlive.com for the (I think) 3 stories.

No idea on the roof vent; I think it looked odd to the person who first asked & she didn't know what it was.

 

[Billylee]

Morning, crazy. We were talking about Logan Storm, the middle school teach with the Interpol warrant. It's kind of a weird story; search his name in oregonlive.com for the (I think) 3 stories.

No idea on the roof vent; I think it looked odd to the person who first asked & she didn't know what it was.

That would be me, I wasn't sure what it was, kinda looks like a camera, apparently it's a small gas furnace vent. It is posted upthread, it was Logan Storm's last known addy. The reason for posting the case about Logan Storm on Kyron's thread is because I was wondering if Logan's arrest was a part of LE's investigation into Kyron's case. He also is a science and math teacher, so I was wondering if he could have been at the science fair that morning, checking out what other schools were doing. In the Google shot of Logan's house is a white pickup truck, a Ford F150, don't know if it was his of course. But it's all curious.

Here's the latest on Storm's arrest:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/02/beaverton_math_teacher_arreste.html