"Stun Gun" marks

[julianne]

The woman was half asleep. She heard the scream, and did nothing about it...just went back to sleep. I believe that the scream she heard was Patsy's...and even if it WAS JB....that just makes me know more than ever ....not that I NEEDED anymore proof.....that the Ramsey's are as guilty as sin. How the h*ll did they not hear their daughter scream....when they were in the SAME house....and the NEIGHBOR heard her?? Very weird....!

Yep, I agree...as far as hitting perfectly....it could have been done when JB hit her head, when she fell against the tub or the sink. Yes, it could have happened that way...and I believe that it DID.

Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.

 

[Solace]

Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.

Julianne, I could swear in PM/PT they do the experiment and upstairs they can hear the sc ream, as well as across the street.

 

[Ames]

Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.

I actually did see that experiment on tv, but it was so long ago,(right after the murder), that I can't remember what the outcome was. But, IF an intruder did it, and the Ramsey's didn't hear it, that would mean that the scream did come from the basement. My question is, why didn't she scream in her bedroom, when the "intruder" was snatching her up to take her to the basement? And even if she was stunned gunned....at the beginning of the first zap, even if she were asleep, it would have woken her up, and she would have had time to let out a scream, before it knocked her out. Still, a huge question for me is, WHY would an indruder...by pass the door that leads to the outside, and possibly his car....and keep on walking and carrying her, down to the basement? (I know this is a change of subject). Why kill her there, when leaving would have been SO much easier...and so much of a lesser chance that he would have been caught? Makes absolutely NO sense. The PARENTS did it.....IMO

 

[Ames]

Julianne, I could swear in PM/PT they do the experiment and upstairs they can hear the sc ream, as well as across the street.

We have four levels in our house....if someone on the bottom level screams...and we are on the top level....we can hear it. Its not very loud, though....but we can STILL hear it. You can also hear through the air/heating vents too. I don't , for one second, think that JB screamed and her parents didn't hear her. JB either screamed, and the parents heard her, because they were WITH her when she screamed...or it was Patsy....screaming when she could not revive JB.

 

[coloradokares]

I am still out on that one. I believe that she had been sexually abused, by....I think...maybe her grandfather (Patsy's dad). I just don't think that John was sexually abusing JB. But, I think that SOMEONE was.

I tned to agree with you Ames. I don't believe it was John Ramsey but I still have my wonders about the manner of which cleaning up JonBenet was carried out. Her private parts. I wonder if some very rough wipeing etc was conducted. Ok I am ready for the hisses boo's etc. I just let my mind wander to the screaming and yelling LHP spoke of.

 

[Dru]

Ames, thanks for your answers.

There's just one problem. That sexual wound (I hate the 'v' word too, btw), according to the medical evidence, had to be inflicted before JBR was dead. Because it bled, at least enough to leave blood on the size-12 underwear. It's possible that it bled more than that, and made it necessary for the killer to remove whatever underwear JBR had been wearing before, and to wipe her down the way he did.

If the wound had been inflicted after death, as staging, it wouldn't have bled.

So, the killer inflicted the wound. Only the killer could have done so.

Now, to me, there are three possible reasons for this wound.

1. Perverse gratification. No evidence supports this, though; there is no evidence from the crime scene that this really was a sex crime, despite the way it looks. (For example, there is no semen anywhere on or near the body, there is no sign that JBR struggled with her attacker, etc.)

2. Staging. Ruled out because of the above, the fact that the wound had to be inflicted before death.

3. Attempt to confuse evidence of prior molestation. In my mind, this is the most likely reason this injury was inflicted; the killer knew JBR was being abused and, further, knew that this evidence would in some way be dangerous to him/her; so he/she decides to inflict this injury so LE will not be able to state with certainty that JBR has been abused prior to the night of the murder. But this means, as I've said before, that either the killer is the molester, or the killer knows with absolute certainty that the abuse is occurring and decides to corrupt the evidence of the abuse.

What bothers me about that second possibility is the 'why'. If PR, for instance, is the killer, and the killing has nothing whatsoever to do with the molestation, why would she hide the evidence of that? Who is she covering for? What will this do for her?

I find it much easier to believe that this whole crime involved the molestation, that the molester became alarmed at the events leading up to Dec. 25 (in particular the 911 call on the 23rd and JBR's 'I don't feel pretty' moment) and that something occurred on the night of the murder that made the molester believe that he/she was in immanent danger of being exposed. (It could be as simple as JBR disobeying the molester, and saying something like 'I don't have to do what you say,' which the molester interpreted as a veiled threat.)

I tend to believe that if anyone of the three people at home was the molester/killer, it was JR--but that's probably a whole post of its own.

 

[Solace]

I tned to agree with you Ames. I don't believe it was John Ramsey but I still have my wonders about the manner of which cleaning up JonBenet was carried out. Her private parts. I wonder if some very rough wipeing etc was conducted. Ok I am ready for the hisses boo's etc. I just let my mind wander to the screaming and yelling LHP spoke of.

Colorado: No hisses here Colorado. I already got the hisses or Veronica and I did when we posed a rough daily or almost daily douching session with Patsy and Jon Benet because of her infections. UK didn't like it at all and says it is mere speculation.

Well, we are all speculating here because we have to. I use to think John was molesting her. I don't anymore. I think it was a form of corporal cleaning (punishment as Steve Thomas calls it).

I just think it happened fairly often, hence the crying from JonBenet in the bathroom that Linda Paugh heard almost every day.

 

[Toaster]

Yep, I agree...as far as hitting perfectly....it could have been done when JB hit her head, when she fell against the tub or the sink. Yes, it could have happened that way...and I believe that it DID.

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB.

 

[Charlie]

Ames, thanks for your answers.

There's just one problem. That sexual wound (I hate the 'v' word too, btw), according to the medical evidence, had to be inflicted before JBR was dead. Because it bled, at least enough to leave blood on the size-12 underwear. It's possible that it bled more than that, and made it necessary for the killer to remove whatever underwear JBR had been wearing before, and to wipe her down the way he did.

If the wound had been inflicted after death, as staging, it wouldn't have bled.

So, the killer inflicted the wound. Only the killer could have done so.

Now, to me, there are three possible reasons for this wound.

1. Perverse gratification. No evidence supports this, though; there is no evidence from the crime scene that this really was a sex crime, despite the way it looks. (For example, there is no semen anywhere on or near the body, there is no sign that JBR struggled with her attacker, etc.)

2. Staging. Ruled out because of the above, the fact that the wound had to be inflicted before death.

3. Attempt to confuse evidence of prior molestation. In my mind, this is the most likely reason this injury was inflicted; the killer knew JBR was being abused and, further, knew that this evidence would in some way be dangerous to him/her; so he/she decides to inflict this injury so LE will not be able to state with certainty that JBR has been abused prior to the night of the murder. But this means, as I've said before, that either the killer is the molester, or the killer knows with absolute certainty that the abuse is occurring and decides to corrupt the evidence of the abuse.

What bothers me about that second possibility is the 'why'. If PR, for instance, is the killer, and the killing has nothing whatsoever to do with the molestation, why would she hide the evidence of that? Who is she covering for? What will this do for her?

I find it much easier to believe that this whole crime involved the molestation, that the molester became alarmed at the events leading up to Dec. 25 (in particular the 911 call on the 23rd and JBR's 'I don't feel pretty' moment) and that something occurred on the night of the murder that made the molester believe that he/she was in immanent danger of being exposed. (It could be as simple as JBR disobeying the molester, and saying something like 'I don't have to do what you say,' which the molester interpreted as a veiled threat.)

I tend to believe that if anyone of the three people at home was the molester/killer, it was JR--but that's probably a whole post of its own.

I have a hard time seeing this crime as being premeditated. Mainly because of the hasty nature of the crime. The ransom note was one big panic ramble and the crime scene in the basement was used from available materials the perp could grab as he went along, ie the paintbrush. If the crime was premeditated why the use of two violent acts to kill, when one well thought out act could do the job, ie the strangulation or the headblow...but both? As sick as it is to imagine this but just say u had to get into the killers mind and act as though u were to commit this murder 2 in two days (after the xmas party threat) and were to think abbout how to silence jbr would you do it this way?

I also think that JBR's "i'm not pretty" is a sign a possible molester rejected her that night and she felt that this was because she was no longer desirable etc. Therefore as twisted as this, she could have enjoyed her time with the perp. The perp rejecting her coupled with JBR having no ill feeling toward her molester which would be seen of her being happy and relived an encounter wouldnt occur that night makes me feel the perp has full control and didnt feel any threat.

I honestly believe JBR was murdered by accident that horrible night.

 

[Solace]

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB.

Toaster. It is very possible to cause that sort of damage to a child if you throw her with enough force. My son was telling me how careful he has to be with the women he acts with or it is possible to really hurt them. He said he could send them flying with very little effort. So, if we are talking about a child who is no more than 40 pounds and she looks absolutely small in the autopsy photos and Patsy who is enraged pulls her by her neck and the child slips and hits her head hard against the bathtup, it could happen. I bet this bathroom was a fairly good sized one also, not the size they have in some New York apartments. What I mean there would be room for the child to go "flying" across the room. The head wound came first, the rest is staging. She was alive though when she was being strangled, which is shown by the petechial hemmorhaging around her neck. It is plentiful.

 

[Solace]

I have a hard time seeing this crime as being premeditated. Mainly because of the hasty nature of the crime. The ransom note was one big panic ramble and the crime scene in the basement was used from available materials the perp could grab as he went along, ie the paintbrush. If the crime was premeditated why the use of two violent acts to kill, when one well thought out act could do the job, ie the strangulation or the headblow...but both? As sick as it is to imagine this but just say u had to get into the killers mind and act as though u were to commit this murder 2 in two days (after the xmas party threat) and were to think abbout how to silence jbr would you do it this way?

I also think that JBR's "i'm not pretty" is a sign a possible molester rejected her that night and she felt that this was because she was no longer desirable etc. Therefore as twisted as this, she could have enjoyed her time with the perp. The perp rejecting her coupled with JBR having no ill feeling toward her molester which would be seen of her being happy and relived an encounter wouldnt occur that night makes me feel the perp has full control and didnt feel any threat.

Charlie, Why does the sexual assault on JonBenet necessarily have to be to cover prior sexual molestation. Why could it not be done so that the "finders" of JB would say, well no parent would do this.

 

[Charlie]

Charlie, Why does the sexual assault on JonBenet necessarily have to be to cover prior sexual molestation. Why could it not be done so that the "finders" of JB would say, well no parent would do this.

We know the chronic inflammation is there regardless. The sexual molestation that night could have been for 2 reasons, as u suggest.

1. the cover prior sexual abuse
2. To create a crime scene that indicates a sexual predator

Whatever the motive the chronic inflammation is still there, which imo is more important than the staged abuse that night as it points to a smaller group of people with access to JBR therefore the circle smallens and more importantly an intruder is excluded.

 

[Ames]

Ames, thanks for your answers.

There's just one problem. That sexual wound (I hate the 'v' word too, btw), according to the medical evidence, had to be inflicted before JBR was dead. Because it bled, at least enough to leave blood on the size-12 underwear. It's possible that it bled more than that, and made it necessary for the killer to remove whatever underwear JBR had been wearing before, and to wipe her down the way he did.

If the wound had been inflicted after death, as staging, it wouldn't have bled.

So, the killer inflicted the wound. Only the killer could have done so.

Now, to me, there are three possible reasons for this wound.

1. Perverse gratification. No evidence supports this, though; there is no evidence from the crime scene that this really was a sex crime, despite the way it looks. (For example, there is no semen anywhere on or near the body, there is no sign that JBR struggled with her attacker, etc.)

2. Staging. Ruled out because of the above, the fact that the wound had to be inflicted before death.

3. Attempt to confuse evidence of prior molestation. In my mind, this is the most likely reason this injury was inflicted; the killer knew JBR was being abused and, further, knew that this evidence would in some way be dangerous to him/her; so he/she decides to inflict this injury so LE will not be able to state with certainty that JBR has been abused prior to the night of the murder. But this means, as I've said before, that either the killer is the molester, or the killer knows with absolute certainty that the abuse is occurring and decides to corrupt the evidence of the abuse.

What bothers me about that second possibility is the 'why'. If PR, for instance, is the killer, and the killing has nothing whatsoever to do with the molestation, why would she hide the evidence of that? Who is she covering for? What will this do for her?

I find it much easier to believe that this whole crime involved the molestation, that the molester became alarmed at the events leading up to Dec. 25 (in particular the 911 call on the 23rd and JBR's 'I don't feel pretty' moment) and that something occurred on the night of the murder that made the molester believe that he/she was in immanent danger of being exposed. (It could be as simple as JBR disobeying the molester, and saying something like 'I don't have to do what you say,' which the molester interpreted as a veiled threat.)

I tend to believe that if anyone of the three people at home was the molester/killer, it was JR--but that's probably a whole post of its own.

You could be right about the V being inflicted before she was dead. But, I believe that IF it happened that way, that the Ramsey's THOUGHT that JB was already dead from the head wound. I just don't think that they would have done any of the staging, if they had of thought that she was still alive. So, IMO...the V injury could have happened BEFORE her death....but only because the Ramsey's THOUGHT she was dead (from the head wound).

 

[Ames]

Colorado: No hisses here Colorado. I already got the hisses or Veronica and I did when we posed a rough daily or almost daily douching session with Patsy and Jon Benet because of her infections. UK didn't like it at all and says it is mere speculation.

Well, we are all speculating here because we have to. I use to think John was molesting her. I don't anymore. I think it was a form of corporal cleaning (punishment as Steve Thomas calls it).

I just think it happened fairly often, hence the crying from JonBenet in the bathroom that Linda Paugh heard almost every day.

I agree...I used to think that John was molesting her too. But, now I don't think he was. She could have still been molested by someone else...a grandfather...perhaps...but, I am with you. I believe that Patsy was using douches on her.

 

[Ames]

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB.

She could have even been hit more than ONCE...for staging purposes. After the first blow...and thats why her skull was cracked like an egg. I have to disagree with you....the evidence...and all of the Ramsey's inconsistancies in their stories...point in only one direction. Patsy (I believe) flew into a rage and accidently harmed her daughter. Patsy thought JB was dead, after the head wound, because JB was unconscious and had a faint heartbeat...and then the coverup began.

 

[Dru]

Hi, Charlie.

I don't actually think the crime was 'premeditated' in the true sense of the word, either. I think that whoever was molesting JBR was growing increasingly uneasy about her, esp. that she would knowingly or unknowingly expose her abuser.

What I think is that something happened on Christmas night that made the abuser 'snap' out of fear that JBR intended to expose him/her. In rage mixed with fear he/she inflicted the head blow, and the rest of the crime was only 'planned' in the sense that it didn't happen in that same moment of rage.

 

[JMO8778]

In thinking about the douche theory...those would likely have been found in the garbage if there were any...BECAUSE it is theorized that JB was prev. abused on the 23rd..SO the next day being xmas eve...I doubt garbage service came and got anything at all that day,nor the next day either--xmas day.
That makes me wonder when the last time garbage was picked up there..I don't think I've ever read anything on it.

 

[JMO8778]

Hi, Charlie.

I don't actually think the crime was 'premeditated' in the true sense of the word, either. I think that whoever was molesting JBR was growing increasingly uneasy about her, esp. that she would knowingly or unknowingly expose her abuser.

What I think is that something happened on Christmas night that made the abuser 'snap' out of fear that JBR intended to expose him/her. In rage mixed with fear he/she inflicted the head blow, and the rest of the crime was only 'planned' in the sense that it didn't happen in that same moment of rage.

I have to wonder if the trip to MI was making someone uneasy...Melinda and Stewart both having medical knowledge,and with them all to be staying in the same house for a few days,and JB not being afraid to ask ANYONE to wipe her..perhaps there was some fear there.

 

[JMO8778]

I think the scream was definitely PR,due to the fact the neighbor that heard it was hushed up somehow..and there would be no need to hush her if it had been JB...that would fit in just right with the IDI theory.

 

[JMO8778]

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB.

I agree,with that huge head wound,someone at some point wanted her dead..and made sure she was.IMO,either PR or JR.