"Stun Gun" marks

[DeDee]

On pg 431 of PMPT pb:

"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

 

[questfortrue]

On pg 431 of PMPT pb:

"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

When I began studying this case I did not realize that some of Schiller’s information was at odds with other information out there. E.g., in Schiller’s book he has JR admitting to once visiting a pornographic bookstore. That information isn’t available anywhere else (to my knowledge). But as to the stun gun theory, there are two varying sets of information in PMPT.

On Page 332 (Nook version) there is the statement DeDee quotes quite accurately. However, in contradiction is this from Page 271 of PMPT: “On Friday, April 11, Smit, DeMuth, and Ainsworth went to the coroner’s office and laid out the photographs for John Meyer. ‘Are these abrasions consistent with a stun gun or taser?’ they asked. Meyer wouldn’t commit himself to a definite answer.”

Now my question for Schiller would be who his sources were. First the coroner won’t commit to a definite answer, and then later says ok they’re consistent. The coroner was extremely careful not to give opinions and said on more than one occasion he would give testimony only in a court room, so the “consistency answer” on page 332 rings questionable, imo. But without source information, these two sets of varying info can’t be confirmed. :moo: Tells me the saga of the stun gun in PMPT cannot be confidently trusted since it contradicts itself in the same book. MHO

 

[DeDee]

When I began studying this case I did not realize that some of Schiller’s information was at odds with other information out there. E.g., in Schiller’s book he has JR admitting to once visiting a pornographic bookstore. That information isn’t available anywhere else (to my knowledge). But as to the stun gun theory, there are two varying sets of information in PMPT.

On Page 332 (Nook version) there is the statement DeDee quotes quite accurately. However, in contradiction is this from Page 271 of PMPT: “On Friday, April 11, Smit, DeMuth, and Ainsworth went to the coroner’s office and laid out the photographs for John Meyer. ‘Are these abrasions consistent with a stun gun or taser?’ they asked. Meyer wouldn’t commit himself to a definite answer.”

Now my question for Schiller would be who his sources were. First the coroner won’t commit to a definite answer, and then later says ok they’re consistent. The coroner was extremely careful not to give opinions and said on more than one occasion he would give testimony only in a court room, so the “consistency answer” on page 332 rings questionable, imo. But without source information, these two sets of varying info can’t be confirmed. :moo: Tells me the saga of the stun gun in PMPT cannot be confidently trusted since it contradicts itself in the same book. MHO

QFT, I also have been slightly concerned that no other references seem to appear except in the 2 previously sources posted.

March 14, 2000 news article
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0314ontv1.shtml

Wounds found on JonBenet Ramsey's face appear to match a particular type of stun gun, Arapahoe County's coroner said Monday.

Dr. Michael Doberson said he recently examined photos of injuries found on the chin and lower back of slain 6-year-old beauty queen and compared them to a Taser stun gun.

"It just looked to me, superficially, that it fits," Doberson said.

The two electrodes on the end of the stun gun were within a millimeter of the two injuries on the little girl's chin, Doberson said. He also noticed where a small metal bar on the weapon also could have left a mark.

It's the first time a medical authority has confirmed the possibility a stun gun was used on the girl who was found slain in her Boulder family home Dec. 26, 1996.

Private investigator Lou Smit brought the autopsy photos, along with a Taser stun gun, to Doberson about two weeks ago, the doctor said.

Smit worked on the case for the Boulder County district attorney's office until he resigned 18 months ago. He said he quit because he believed John and Patsy Ramsey had been wrongfully targeted in the death of their daughter.

This weekend Smit went public, revealing evidence in the case that he says exonerates the Ramseys, such as a metal baseball bat found outside the house and packing materials found inside and outside a broken basement window. JonBenet was given a skull-fracturing blow to the head before she was strangled.

Doberson noted that any stun-gun wounds on JonBenet would not have been lethal.

Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner cautioned that people should not jump to conclusions.

"There's some danger in making a decision based on photographs without having talked to the people who did the autopsy and who saw the injuries," he said.

Boulder County Coroner John Meyer declined to comment on Doberson's opinion.

"I don't think it's appropriate for me to give my opinion on this at this point," Meyer said. "If it ever does go to trial, I would be called as a witness. So it wouldn't be ethical for me to comment."

Beckner said he is familiar with Smit's theory that a stun gun was used on JonBenet. "I can say, we have evidence to the contrary," Beckner said.

Beckner said he was disturbed that Smit decided to talk about evidence in the unsolved case.

"He's willing to go out and talk about his theory, but in so doing, he ignores a lot of other evidence," Beckner said.

I currently hold the belief, without beyond a doubt evidence, that a stun gun was purchased in Coral Gables by the Ramsey's during their Super Bowl trip to Miami in 1995 from the same store where the stun gun video was obtained.

Furthermore, I currently believe, again without concrete evidence, that Patsy used this stun gun on her daughter as a punishment tool. We have all read LHP's Chapter 1 of Death of an Innocent when she recounts Patsy take JonBenet into the bathroom where JonBenet could be heard screaming and crying.

The photo of JonBenet standing with bare feet in the red sundress that reveal two suspicious red marks on her left leg also have a faint line leading from one mark to the other one.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=189732&postcount=27"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Stun Gun Myth Dispelled![/ame]

 

[Anti-K]

P. 271 (Nook version) of PMPT Meyer wouldn’t commit himself to a definite answer.

P. 332 (Nook version) of PMPT After reviewing the photos and this new information Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun

P. 271 was in april, P. 332 was in june or july. The inconsistency vanishes. Between april and june/july Meyer was presented with “new information.”
...

AK

 

[DeDee]

Just thought I would drop this image on the stun gun marks thread.

Using a computer screen with high quality dpi to view photos of JonBenet, a thin line is visible in between where the sets of stun gun marks/abrasions are made on her back and also including the photo of her left leg shown while she was wearing the red sundress standing with bare feet on the porch.

According to the AR, there was also another set of [twin] abrasions on the back of her leg above the ankle which we have never seen a photo image of, to my knowledge.

The two abrasions on JonBenet's right cheek are shown in the image above. The tape's adhesive left, imho, the thin, white, straight line. The thin, white line turns downward just above the larger abrasion.

The twin abrasion is smaller because she was stunned through the tape. Thus, leaving the white fleck on her right cheek (not shown in this image).

When a taser/stun gun is applied directly to the skin, the sound is muffled bc the conductivity travels through the skin. If the person being stunned moves away from the pain of the stun, a larger abrasion is made due to lack of indirect contact to the skin. This is what I believe explains the two abrasions on JonBenet's right cheek area.


Strictly my opinion, based on the evidence, of course.

 

[bettybaby00]

Could we please post autopsy pics as a URL??

They're really tough to see, and scrolling on by doesn't help.

:tyou:

 

[SS 396 SS]

Jayelles,

I agree with with much of what you say, imo the rust colored mark in your first photograph strongly resembles a postmortem injury, consider when you use a hammer to hit a nail, miss and hit your fingernail, days later the injury can become rust colored.

Postmortem contusions take on this coloring due to the blood not having been re-oxygenated, contusions on or close to death, move through a cycle of changes as the blood breaks down internally inside the contusion.


The white mark could be anything from duct-tape debri to something that was deposited after her body was discovered.

Until the white mark impacts on any theory I think its safe to disregard it.

I had intended to look over the stuff on her face but have not had time yet, but speculating, it appears the fluid or mucous is a postmortem release from either her mouth or nasal passages as a response to her skull fracture, this occurs in severe head injuries.


All the current forensic evidence, particularly the autopsy details, suggest JonBenet died a violent death, all the indications are not those of an accidental death.


.

You said it way back then and I thought it would be worth bringin up. Although I don't know how reliable the information about glue on JB's face could be seein how it wasn't in the autopsy report.
I think it was Syrakelly who had sayed somethin about the model airplane. I remember hearing this too. I can't remember where.
I started thinkin them things take glue.
Burke was goin to take a ride on his dads plane that next mornin. It makes sense he would be excited about it and want to play with one that night.
Is it possible that the garrotte was not intended for that at all but instead was meant to loop around the plane so Burke could fly it around the house?
If so, it or Burke's hands could have had glue on them. Just some thoughts I wanted to bring up.

Just for the record I do not believe a stun gun was involved, so please don't everybody jump on me.

 

[huntina]

I think the marks on Jon Benet could have been caused by her brother Burke's train set. There was a documentary aired about her in 2016 and they measured the width of the train tracks from Burke's toy train set, and it matched EXACTLY with the distance between the two marks on Jon Benet's body. This is just my theory, but (I think) they said in the documentary that the marks were not consistent with a stun gun. However I can find lots of sources from both sides of that so I'm unsure about that point.

 

[BoldBear]

I think the marks on Jon Benet could have been caused by her brother Burke's train set. There was a documentary aired about her in 2016 and they measured the width of the train tracks from Burke's toy train set, and it matched EXACTLY with the distance between the two marks on Jon Benet's body. This is just my theory, but (I think) they said in the documentary that the marks were not consistent with a stun gun. However I can find lots of sources from both sides of that so I'm unsure about that point.

James Kolar came up with this theory. He has one of the best books on this case: "Foreign Faction"

Here's a thread for the train tracks: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?180017-The-train-track

 

[TeaTime]

No stun gun. It is a red herring tossed in to bolster Smit's magic intruder theory. The autopsy report revealed these to be abrasions, not burns of any kind. It is nonsense.

 

[HRP]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab JessieBell,

There have been several detailed discussions on this forum about whether or not the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet could have been from the built-in hardware in the blue suitcase. About 5 years ago I remember experimenting by my 6-yr-old granddaughter volunteering to climb into a hard-sided suitcase similar to and about the same size as the Ramsey suitcase. She fit in easily, but there were no hardware items that lined up with the known marks left anywhere on JonBenet.

IMO the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet were just that -- they were stun gun marks. The rectangular twin injuries on Jon Benet's lower back; and on the lower leg; and on the face, closely match the measurements of the twin metal prongs on a Taser brand stungun. The tiny injuries were originally recognized as abrasions and not stun gun injuries, but after further studies the coroner, Dr. John Meyer, changed his opinion and admitted the injuries were consistent with stun gun injuries. Other forensic pathologists who had first-hand experience with stun gun injuries agreed with Meyer.


BlueCrab.

It is documented, in other stun gun cases, that the marks left are termed "abrasions".

 

[SandyQLS]

Just thought I would drop this image on the stun gun marks thread.

Using a computer screen with high quality dpi to view photos of JonBenet, a thin line is visible in between where the sets of stun gun marks/abrasions are made on her back and also including the photo of her left leg shown while she was wearing the red sundress standing with bare feet on the porch.

According to the AR, there was also another set of [twin] abrasions on the back of her leg above the ankle which we have never seen a photo image of, to my knowledge.

The two abrasions on JonBenet's right cheek are shown in the image above. The tape's adhesive left, imho, the thin, white, straight line. The thin, white line turns downward just above the larger abrasion.

The twin abrasion is smaller because she was stunned through the tape. Thus, leaving the white fleck on her right cheek (not shown in this image).

When a taser/stun gun is applied directly to the skin, the sound is muffled bc the conductivity travels through the skin. If the person being stunned moves away from the pain of the stun, a larger abrasion is made due to lack of indirect contact to the skin. This is what I believe explains the two abrasions on JonBenet's right cheek area.


Strictly my opinion, based on the evidence, of course.

1. JMO I think the fine lines are stray hairs.
2. What I see in the large facial abrasion is a raised area of scabbing. There is a prominent part at 4-5 o'clock (in this photo version), and a sort of tail scratch of raised dried scab that goes up to 10-11 o'clock. My gut reaction to this is a backhanded slap with a right hand, the abrasion gouged by a ring with a stone set on prongs.
3. From page 2 of the AR: “Located just below the right ear at the right angle of the mandible, 1.5 inches below the right external auditory canal is a 3/8 by 1/4 inch area of rust colored abrasion.” We all have this bony prominence right there where this mark appears on JBR's face. As such (bony prominence), it is also reasonable that this is any fall or drag type mark. For instance, she could have fallen against a bathroom drawer handle, or the face may have dragged on the WC cement floor on cement gravel bits.

 

[DeDee]

1. JMO I think the fine lines are stray hairs.
2. What I see in the large facial abrasion is a raised area of scabbing. There is a prominent part at 4-5 o'clock (in this photo version), and a sort of tail scratch of raised dried scab that goes up to 10-11 o'clock. My gut reaction to this is a backhanded slap with a right hand, the abrasion gouged by a ring with a stone set on prongs.
3. From page 2 of the AR: “Located just below the right ear at the right angle of the mandible, 1.5 inches below the right external auditory canal is a 3/8 by 1/4 inch area of rust colored abrasion.” We all have this bony prominence right there where this mark appears on JBR's face. As such (bony prominence), it is also reasonable that this is any fall or drag type mark. For instance, she could have fallen against a bathroom drawer handle, or the face may have dragged on the WC cement floor on cement gravel bits.

I note JBs stray hairs. The thin white edging of adhesive is attached to her skin.

I am one who feels the Rs did own a stun gun. Having a video about a stun gun, even in a different language, is still having a video on stun guns. Important to note is that I never considered the stun gun as an Intruder's weapon. Nooo. It belonged to the hand's of the Rs.

Then, again, I want it both ways. The RR track would not form the dark abrasion on her cheek. Abrading skin from a stun gun could cause the injury on JBs face. Maybe both forms of torture were used. Even if a stun gun was not part of the CS, there is no reason not to think the Rs owned such a weapon after they visited the store in Coral Gables eleven months prior when they attended the Super Bowl.

I don't think a ring setting from a back-hand made the skin damage. I've read a similar theory so I could be wrong. I don't think a lit cigar made the damage or it'd be classified as a burn. Nothing in the suitcase made the injury.

Her right shoulder had an abrasion. The right shoulder of her white shirt had fibers from the blue duvet/comforter on it. Somehow, JB was dragged on the duvet and received the shoulder abrasion and possibly the facial abrasion, as well.

I don't know but this very little girl was beaten and raped before she was strangled to death and of that much I am sure.

 

[acheter]

that's exactly what he's afriad of..the truth on the matter,once and for all.

 

[UKGuy]

I note JBs stray hairs. The thin white edging of adhesive is attached to her skin.

I am one who feels the Rs did own a stun gun. Having a video about a stun gun, even in a different language, is still having a video on stun guns. Important to note is that I never considered the stun gun as an Intruder's weapon. Nooo. It belonged to the hand's of the Rs.

Then, again, I want it both ways. The RR track would not form the dark abrasion on her cheek. Abrading skin from a stun gun could cause the injury on JBs face. Maybe both forms of torture were used. Even if a stun gun was not part of the CS, there is no reason not to think the Rs owned such a weapon after they visited the store in Coral Gables eleven months prior when they attended the Super Bowl.

I don't think a ring setting from a back-hand made the skin damage. I've read a similar theory so I could be wrong. I don't think a lit cigar made the damage or it'd be classified as a burn. Nothing in the suitcase made the injury.

Her right shoulder had an abrasion. The right shoulder of her white shirt had fibers from the blue duvet/comforter on it. Somehow, JB was dragged on the duvet and received the shoulder abrasion and possibly the facial abrasion, as well.

I don't know but this very little girl was beaten and raped before she was strangled to death and of that much I am sure.

DeDee,
I have always thought the abrasions and contusions found on JonBenet have never been given sufficient attention. IMO some are the result from dragging JonBenet by the arms, others from a sustained physical assault?

Did a family member deliberately injure JonBenet, apply blunt force trauma then sexually assault her? Shades of Ted Bundy's strategy here.

Was it a premeditated rage attack?

.

 

[DeDee]

DeDee,
I have always thought the abrasions and contusions found on JonBenet have never been given sufficient attention. IMO some are the result from dragging JonBenet by the arms, others from a sustained physical assault?

Did a family member deliberately injure JonBenet, apply blunt force trauma then sexually assault her? Shades of Ted Bundy's strategy here.

Was it a premeditated rage attack?

.

JonBenet was wide awake during the sexual assault. It was bookmarked by the acute injury that left the birefringent material behind at the time of her death.

I suppose the main focus of her copious injuries has been on the very barbaric garotte only to discover an underlying tremendous skull fracture caused by powerful might. An intentional strike with an intentional strangulation, if you will. The numerous bruises and abrasions tell a story, too. This child was severely battered before death.

It appears that dangerous anger was present. I suppose one could premeditate rage. Jesus did it once when he saw the moneychangers at the temple, He left to go make a whip out of cord. Legally, premeditation can be formed in a moment.

If PDI, it was premed for a while, months really. If BDI, it was premed for longer. What happened to JBR did not happen on a whim. Great consideration was given to certain aspects of the crimes. jmhoo

I remain concerned about the chronic abuse. Since JBs hymen erosion was in one specific location, it seems that it was someone with an experienced hand whereas a 9 - 10yo boy would not know to perform that gentle introduction in the same place each time.

No Links. Just an opinion.

 

[k-mac]

JonBenet was wide awake during the sexual assault. It was bookmarked by the acute injury that left the birefringent material behind at the time of her death.

I suppose the main focus of her copious injuries has been on the very barbaric garotte only to discover an underlying tremendous skull fracture caused by powerful might. An intentional strike with an intentional strangulation, if you will. The numerous bruises and abrasions tell a story, too. This child was severely battered before death.

It appears that dangerous anger was present. I suppose one could premeditate rage. Jesus did it once when he saw the moneychangers at the temple, He left to go make a whip out of cord. Legally, premeditation can be formed in a moment.

If PDI, it was premed for a while, months really. If BDI, it was premed for longer. What happened to JBR did not happen on a whim. Great consideration was given to certain aspects of the crimes. jmhoo

I remain concerned about the chronic abuse. Since JBs hymen erosion was in one specific location, it seems that it was someone with an experienced hand whereas a 9 - 10yo boy would not know to perform that gentle introduction in the same place each time.

No Links. Just an opinion.

don't agree DeDee about the finger penetration.
ever since reading Dr John McCanns expert opinion in child sexual abuse I am 100% behind his opinion.
It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger

which means if it was sexual nature it was not teaching her or grooming her for pleasure, jabbing her with something hard finger sized which I find difficult to believe (whats in it for the abuser??...) which leaves what I think is the bottom line.
patsy aggressively cleaning her with a douching wand.
nobody would dare have the balls or nerve to tell that woman what she was doing was wrong.
such cruelty that child endured no matter which side of the abuse you follow. :-(

 

[DeDee]

don't agree DeDee about the finger penetration.
ever since reading Dr John McCanns expert opinion in child sexual abuse I am 100% behind his opinion.
It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger

which means if it was sexual nature it was not teaching her or grooming her for pleasure, jabbing her with something hard finger sized which I find difficult to believe (whats in it for the abuser??...) which leaves what I think is the bottom line.
patsy aggressively cleaning her with a douching wand.
nobody would dare have the balls or nerve to tell that woman what she was doing was wrong.
such cruelty that child endured no matter which side of the abuse you follow. :-(

Minor differences
jabbed would be a quick poke with an object
shoved would be to use force to roughly jab with an object

If PR is violently douching her 6yo daughter with a plastic wand, when did that begin? Was it the first or second time? Do they sale child size douches? I can understand using a douche bottle to rinse after bedwetting. There is no reason to enter the vagina. They are totally separate orifices. And where is the wand and douche bottle in evidence or are those items we add to the "not found in the house" list along with tape and cord?

Maybe I need to be reminded why douching is a valid theory. Did PR admit to ever doing that or someone suggest she try it? Does this data come from Nedra? I simply don't recall because I am old. But, I am happy.

 

[k-mac]

Minor differences
jabbed would be a quick poke with an object
shoved would be to use force to roughly jab with an object

If PR is violently douching her 6yo daughter with a plastic wand, when did that begin? Was it the first or second time? Do they sale child size douches? I can understand using a douche bottle to rinse after bedwetting. There is no reason to enter the vagina. They are totally separate orifices. And where is the wand and douche bottle in evidence or are those items we add to the "not found in the house" list along with tape and cord?

Maybe I need to be reminded why douching is a valid theory. Did PR admit to ever doing that or someone suggest she try it? Does this data come from Nedra? I simply don't recall because I am old. But, I am happy.

The corporal cleansing theory is back to basics with the original lead investigator. steve Thomas.
come on de dee!! your not that old ;-)

here is an older thread talking about it.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?50712-quot-personal-hygeine-quot-of-JB/page8

 

[DeDee]

The corporal cleansing theory is back to basics with the original lead investigator. steve Thomas.
come on de dee!! your not that old ;-)

here is an older thread talking about it.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?50712-quot-personal-hygeine-quot-of-JB/page8

Oh, my confessions are true. Thankfully, my thoughts are more clear after an afternoon Sunday Siesta.

And, well, I suppose that shows what I think of STs theory more than anything. I adore ST immensely. Just don't agree with his final theory of why PR did it, if she did. And for more years than not, I've held PR accountable for everything. I've only recently in the past couple of years seriously considered BR. It took countless hours of research to get me swinging BDI. One reason for that is because for PDI, I had to place PR in a psychosis, which theory continues to have merit.