Summary of Damien's Mental Health History

[claudicici]

illegal conduct happens in all professions .Mental hospitals are no exception.
They are being sued all the time
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/07/rick-santorum-universal-health-services_n_872803.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/25/nyregion/25damages.html
http://bipolarman.org/blog/2011/03/27/psych-hospital-sued-for-false-imprisonment/
http://www.newsrecord.org/news/university-hospital-ucpd-officers-being-sued-1.2277437

....just some random links....

 

[Flossie JMO]

BTW antipsychiatry.org is hardly a reliable informant on the state of psychiatry or mental health. They talk about various job disciplines who report thousands of inappropriate admissions but they never mention who, where, when or how. Its easy to find hate mongering material on a variety of subjects, against a variety of persons but that doesn't make it true.

bbm This I agree with. I pray the WM3 remain safe with their freedom and receive assistance and support with becoming adjusted to freedom, and that the actual killers are found someday.

 

[Reality Orlando]

This is not the mind of a rebellious teenager, this is the mind of someone who is seriously seriously mentally ill & psychotic.

I agree. Having worked with thousands of teenagers, I can count on one hand how many times I've encountered this type of extreme, violent litany. Running away to live at the beach or to CA to break into show biz is rebellious. Planning to have a baby in order to perform a ritual sacrifice...even projecting that as a conscious thought, is well beyond rebellion.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I agree. Having worked with thousands of teenagers, I can count on one hand how many times I've encountered this type of extreme, violent litany. Running away to live at the beach or to CA to break into show biz is rebellious. Planning to have a baby in order to perform a ritual sacrifice...even projecting that as a conscious thought, is well beyond rebellion.

I have also worked with thousands of teenagers, and I would put the number of teenagers who have made statements similar to Damien's well into the hundreds. I have heard teenagers threaten to kill their parents. I have heard teenagers threaten suicide. I have heard teenagers threaten to kill their tormentors. I have heard teenagers admit to drinking blood, worshiping Satan and many other very bizarre things. One girl even said that she didn't want to have an abortion because she could use her baby to continue to punish her parents for not allowing her the "freedom to be myself" and went on to say that "If the baby becomes a problem, well, there are ways to deal with that, too."

None of these teenagers ever did anything violent. The last girl, after counseling, even gave her baby up for adoption and reconciled with her parents. For middle class or upper class kids, running away to live at the beach or to CA to break into show biz is rebellion. For poor kids, the "rebellion" statements tend to be much more bizarre. This I know from personal experience, having worked almost exclusively with poor kids for my entire career.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

I agree. Having worked with thousands of teenagers, I can count on one hand how many times I've encountered this type of extreme, violent litany. Running away to live at the beach or to CA to break into show biz is rebellious. Planning to have a baby in order to perform a ritual sacrifice...even projecting that as a conscious thought, is well beyond rebellion.

Then maybe you can answer for me....

Once again, not being snarky. I am NOT a mental health professional, so I don't know and I am curious as to why, if Damien was such a seriously mentally ill person, why would they continue to release him in the first place. I thought that when someone was a danger to themselves and others and exhibited all of these dangerous behaviors, or statements that they could keep them. He was taken in repeatedly and seemed cooperative. He didn't seem, from what I have read (not finished with all of the 500 pages. They are difficult for me to read and the handwriting is atrocious) he to be throwing fits and demanding to be released. At least not yet as far as what I have read so far.

 

[Reality Orlando]

I have also worked with thousands of teenagers, and I would put the number of teenagers who have made statements similar to Damien's well into the hundreds. I have heard teenagers threaten to kill their parents. I have heard teenagers threaten suicide. I have heard teenagers threaten to kill their tormentors. I have heard teenagers admit to drinking blood, worshiping Satan and many other very bizarre things. One girl even said that she didn't want to have an abortion because she could use her baby to continue to punish her parents for not allowing her the "freedom to be myself" and went on to say that "If the baby becomes a problem, well, there are ways to deal with that, too."

None of these teenagers ever did anything violent. The last girl, after counseling, even gave her baby up for adoption and reconciled with her parents. For middle class or upper class kids, running away to live at the beach or to CA to break into show biz is rebellion. For poor kids, the "rebellion" statements tend to be much more bizarre. This I know from personal experience, having worked almost exclusively with poor kids for my entire career.

I have no idea where you worked but I would NEVER label a kid who wanted to kill his father and eat him as simply rebellious...who tried to scratch someone's eyes out as rebellious...etc. That goes well beyond rebellion IMO.

Why he was released over and over? Who knows. He may have convinced the docs he was on meds and getting better. I have no doubt, though, that since he was hospitalized on several occasions that he was well beyond rebellious.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I have no idea where you worked but I would NEVER label a kid who wanted to kill his father and eat him as simply rebellious...who tried to scratch someone's eyes out as rebellious...etc. That goes well beyond rebellion IMO.

Why he was released over and over? Who knows. He may have convinced the docs he was on meds and getting better. I have no doubt, though, that since he was hospitalized on several occasions that he was well beyond rebellious.

I worked as a teacher in an inner city high school. These students were "labeled" as ED - emotionally disturbed. They were not considered psychotic and were in regular classrooms with "normal" students. Anyone who has children attending public schools could be sitting next to students like this every school day. My point is that the things Damien said and threatened were never carried out and he was not considered a danger to himself or others or he would not have been released from the hospital.

IIRC, he was hospitalized on two occasions, but the number of times he was hospitalized is really unimportant. What is more important is the fact that he was released after a fairly short stay on each occasion of being hospitalized. I have a nephew who was hospitalized as a teenager for much the same thing, i.e., making threats about killing his parents. He did not grow up to be a murderer.

Damien's psychiatric history, although indicative of a potential for violence (which would make him a person of interest in this case), does not prove that he murdered those little boys. IMO, implying that it does is highly inappropriate and borders on deceitful.

 

[Cappuccino]

I agree. Having worked with thousands of teenagers, I can count on one hand how many times I've encountered this type of extreme, violent litany. Running away to live at the beach or to CA to break into show biz is rebellious. Planning to have a baby in order to perform a ritual sacrifice...even projecting that as a conscious thought, is well beyond rebellion.

The suggestion that Damien ever planned to do that came from Jerry Driver, not Damien himself. There's no evidence that Driver was telling the truth, he made that suggestion to Deanna Holcombe, who initially didn't believe him and then, after her and Damien split up, started to believe it and repeat the allegation. I reckon you should stop taking Exhibit 500 as gospel, because its not all the product of qualified psychiatrists/psychologists. Isolate the parts which have convicted fraudster Jerry Driver as the source, and discount them, IMO that will leave you with a more accurate picture.

The notion of women being used to breed children for sacrifice is a common myth in the Satanic Ritual Abuse literature that Driver and Steve Jones were stuffing their empty little heads up with at the time. So is the notion of Satanists urinating in victims mouths. In Driver and Jones you had two individuals who fell hook, line and sinker for that particular hoax.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

IIRC, Jerry Driver was the person almost entirely responsible for Damien's second hospitalization. I'm pretty sure that I recall reading in Almost Home that Driver was the one who took Damien to the hospital. I know that he also hounded Damien and took it upon himself to apprise the Seattle authorities of Damien's "dangerous" nature when Damien moved briefly to Seattle with his mother and father. Damien didn't stay in Seattle long, choosing to move back to Arkansas and live on his own because he missed his friends and had trouble getting along with his parents.

IIRC, this move was shortly before his eighteenth birthday when he would be emancipated anyway. However, because of his status as a minor, some social worker helped him apply for and receive SSI benefits, based on a "mental" disability. This turn of events is, in part, what led to the infamous "Exhibit 500" that keeps rearing its inaccurate and ugly head whenever Damien is discussed.

 

[Cappuccino]

I wouldn't mind if Exhibit 500 was a document compiled by mental health professionals who knew what they were talking about, because there's no doubt that Damien did have some kind of problem, although whether it was depression or psychotic NOS remains unclear.

My problem with that document is that it is a mixture of valid professional observations, invalid amateur opinions, unsupported assertions and just plain old tall tales. Some people don't seem to realise that, and take the whole document as if it was reliable. For those who want to sort out the wheat from the chaff, here's a useful read....

http://www.jivepuppi.com/damien_echols_2.html

 

[Pensfan]

I wouldn't mind if Exhibit 500 was a document compiled by mental health professionals who knew what they were talking about, because there's no doubt that Damien did have some kind of problem, although whether it was depression or psychotic NOS remains unclear.

My problem with that document is that it is a mixture of valid professional observations, invalid amateur opinions, unsupported assertions and just plain old tall tales. Some people don't seem to realise that, and take the whole document as if it was reliable. For those who want to sort out the wheat from the chaff, here's a useful read....

http://www.jivepuppi.com/damien_echols_2.html

What is compiled in Exhibit 500 by the various mental health professionals and the forensic psychiatrist, who was also a board certified neurologist, is extremely frightening to me. I worked in university-affiliated locked psych units for 3 decades.

Websleuth members and anyone who might ever live near Damien should read Exhibit 500. Realize that Damien was hospitalized on one occasion and his parents stated that they feared for their safety and for others in their home. Damien was hospitalized THREE times in the year before the children were murdered.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html

Pensfan
________
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[my2sense]

Pensfan - I have a question about your 30 years as a psych nurse. Do you have any statistics about how many people who went through your facility actually committed murder? My own BP daughter was violent and pretty delusional for a time, but not anymore. I do think passing through puberty to adulthood added to her stability - but when she was a teenager, I did fear for her safety and the safety of others.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Why he was released over and over? Who knows. He may have convinced the docs he was on meds and getting better. I have no doubt, though, that since he was hospitalized on several occasions that he was well beyond rebellious.

Respectfully snipped for relevance by me!

Thank you for answering. I am just curious. I find it odd that if they really believed that he was a danger that they would continue to release him. Makes me wonder about a lot of things....

 

[Pensfan]

Respectfully snipped for relevance by me!

Thank you for answering. I am just curious. I find it odd that if they really believed that he was a danger that they would continue to release him. Makes me wonder about a lot of things....

Damien was hospitalized for 6 weeks during one of his three admissions in the year before the little boys were killed. Another time, his mom had him discharged early because she was moving to Oregon. It can't be predicted how long he would have been kept as an inpatient if his mom had not asked for him to be released so he could move to Oregon with the family.

Since the 1970s, there has been a federal and state initiative to close psychiatric hospitals because of fiscal concerns and a push towards outpatient treatment. As a result, there are now very few psychiatric hospital beds for a huge number of patients. Over 95% of state psychiatric hospitals have closed since this time. There is a frequently a waiting list to be admitted at many facilities. There are very few long-term facilities for the mentally ill.
http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/Behavior...-Gibson-Changing_Role_of_State_Pscyh_Hosp.pdf

These explain in more detail:
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~raphael/raphael2000.pdf
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation"]Deinstitutionalisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Since the 1970s, there has been a federal and state initiative to close psychiatric hospitals because of fiscal concerns and a push towards outpatient treatment. As a result, there are now very few psychiatric hospital beds for a huge number of patients.

<snipped for brevity> (bold mine)

Well, that really makes me feel wonderful. If seriously dangerous people are being released into society for fiscal concerns, that is truly a frightening situation. (Please note: IMO, Damien Echols is not a dangerous person or a threat to society.) I remember when they used to place homeless people in mental hospitals so they would have a roof over their heads and then it became difficult in some cases for them to get out again. It appears that things have really changed.

Sounds like what's happening in public education. Special Education students, like Jessie, who need the extra help of segregated Special Education classes are being "mainstreamed" (placed in "regular" classes with just an aide to help the teacher) partially for fiscal concerns, but partially because some outside entities have determined that placing students in Special Education classes gives them a stigma that they might carry forward after graduation. In the meantime, mainstream curriculum is being "dumbed down" to accommodate these Special Education students who cannot keep up with the "normal" curriculum.

Since the mid-70's, educators have been dealing with this unfair situation. I'm assuming that mental health professionals will have to continue to deal with similar situations, too. I guess it's just part of the job.

 

[Pensfan]

Students with conduct disorder issues like Damien Echols can also be found in special education classes. The case documents show that Damien Echols:
Chased child with ax.
Initiates fights at school/aggression toward others.
Attempted to claw out schoolmate's eyes.
Started two fires in his school.
Bit another student.
http://www.jivepuppi.com/damien_echols_4.html

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Students with conduct disorder issues like Damien Echols can also be found in special education classes. The case documents show that Damien Echols:
Chased child with ax.
Initiates fights at school/aggression toward others.
Attempted to claw out schoolmate's eyes.
Started two fires in his school.
Bit another student.
http://www.jivepuppi.com/damien_echols_4.html

I have had students in my classes who had similar behaviors, including one who chased a student with a knife, but it happened outside school hours and off of school property so he was never suspended for it. However, this student turned out fine. IIRC, he went on to college and became a business man.

BTW, the "label" in Special Education for these particular behaviors is "ED" which stands for emotionally disturbed. They are consistently placed in regular classes and given a "modification" that the teacher must follow to allow them a "cooling off period" if they act out. I never had any serious problem with any of these students and found that, in most cases, the aggressive behavior was just a cry for attention.

Some may find that hard to believe, but sometimes a student who doesn't get attention at home will get it wherever and however he/she can. In their minds, immature as they are, negative attention is better than no attention. I know it wasn't Kosher, but I found the best way to deal with any aggressive behavior was to ignore the behavior and give my attention to the student when he/she was doing something that was more acceptable than the aggressive behavior. That's something I learned in Psychology, too. Don't reward misbehavior.

Of course, if the behavior was threatening to another student, I would call Security and have the student removed. That only happened once in 25 years. Usually the aggressive behavior, like Damien mentioned, was self-directed and wasn't really threatening to anyone but the student.

 

[Pensfan]

I have had students in my classes who had similar behaviors, including one who chased a student with a knife, but it happened outside school hours and off of school property so he was never suspended for it. However, this student turned out fine. IIRC, he went on to college and became a business man.

BTW, the "label" in Special Education for these particular behaviors is "ED" which stands for emotionally disturbed. They are consistently placed in regular classes and given a "modification" that the teacher must follow to allow them a "cooling off period" if they act out. I never had any serious problem with any of these students and found that, in most cases, the aggressive behavior was just a cry for attention.

Some may find that hard to believe, but sometimes a student who doesn't get attention at home will get it wherever and however he/she can. In their minds, immature as they are, negative attention is better than no attention. I know it wasn't Kosher, but I found the best way to deal with any aggressive behavior was to ignore the behavior and give my attention to the student when he/she was doing something that was more acceptable than the aggressive behavior. That's something I learned in Psychology, too. Don't reward misbehavior.

Of course, if the behavior was threatening to another student, I would call Security and have the student removed. That only happened once in 25 years. Usually the aggressive behavior, like Damien mentioned, was self-directed and wasn't really threatening to anyone but the student.

Do you have a reference for your statement that Damien Echols' aggressive behavior was usually self-directed? Here is a reference for how Damien said he had to "blow up " sometimes and hurt someone. Here it is:

From Damien Echols’ medical record:
Reveals a history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child. Denies that this has influenced him stating “I just put it all inside.” Describes this as more than just anger — like rage. Sometimes he does “blow up”. Relates that when this happens the only solution is to “hurt someone”. Damien reports being told at the hospital that he could be another “Charles Manson or Ted Bundy”. When questioned on his feelings he states “I know I’m going to influence the world — people will remember me.”
http://callahan.8k.com/images/500/050.jpg

Why is it acceptable that Damien's aggression "wasn't really threatening to anyone but the student" (who was being bitten, chased by an ax, having his eyes gouged out by Damien's sharpened-to-a-point fingernails?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Why is it acceptable that Damien's aggression "wasn't really threatening to anyone but the student"

<snipped to take out repetition>

I was saying that the aggressive behavior I witnessed, even the types of behaviors you attribute to Damien, were usually self-directed. Damien mentioned in his autobiography, Almost Home, that, when he felt enraged, he usually directed the rage at himself. That is my source for my statement that he usually directed his rage and aggressive behaviors at himself.

 

[Pensfan]

Pensfan - I have a question about your 30 years as a psych nurse. Do you have any statistics about how many people who went through your facility actually committed murder? My own BP daughter was violent and pretty delusional for a time, but not anymore. I do think passing through puberty to adulthood added to her stability - but when she was a teenager, I did fear for her safety and the safety of others.

I am glad that your daughter is doing well at this time and she has a loved one to assist her when/if needed.

Although such information about individuals arrested for murder is usually quickly released to the press by neighbors and family members, it is unethical for me to discuss details. I can tell you that in the last six months, I have recognized the names of three individuals arrested for murder.