Syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform

[OneLostGrl]

But like many other prescription meds they can be sold on the blackmarket.
The fact that it was found in a wooded area points to it not being obtained legally, imo.
I had a history of intravenous drug abuse (10+ years ago) and we would shoot up just about anything. I personally never injected alcohol, but knew others who did.
Am I right in thinking that there was more ethanol than testosterone in the syringe?
Wonder if it showed signs of being bent, or blunted which would mean it had been used several times. I know that we used to clean out the syringes with alcohol or boiled water for reuse when running low on syringes, so that the blood didn't clog it up, but we never left the alcohol sitting in it. But we would pre-prepare the syringes with our drug of choice for later use.

I'm leaning toward the gatarade bottle and its contents not being connected to the case....but if it is connected its going to be interesting to see who was using the testosterone.
I keep thinking about Kc's visits to I.D's gym, and her plans to get fit and work out more. I guess it's possible she picked it up there, but I doubt it.
JMO

I also do not think there is any proof this syringe had anything to do with Casey. My post was simply to correct the misinformation that it is an illegal drug. Congrats on your years clean! :blowkiss:

 

[Valhall]

Thank you so much, I think this may be what I've looked for/asked to see for the past few days.... crossing my fingers and about to check it out! Thanks again!

No problem. I think I have one more thing you may need, just in case you haven't gotten that far in the discovery doc yet.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/CMA/10ppm.jpg

Okay, you're the expert, but in my understanding, we should be able to use the results from this known concentration to normalize the other results and get a ORDER OF MAGNITUDE ESTIMATE.

Now, I've worked with PhD chemists too long to not know that what you're aiming for is the perfect answer. But we don't need the perfect answer. We need a good order of magnitude estimate.

I have come up with 1X10 ppb for 238.1 and 1X10^2 ppt for 240.1.1...but I'm not the expert! So, I'm anxiously awaiting your best jab at this.

 

[okiedokietoo]

No, she didn't.

"syringes loaded with chloroform" - UNTRUE
"Gatorade bottle loaded with chloroform" - UNTRUE
"the bombshell suggesting tot mom cooked up homemade chloroform, carried it in the Gatorade bottle, then injecting it directly into her 2-year-old girl`s body, bound with duct tape." - Only in NG's mind.

She reports the facts of the case and, ok, speculates, the same thing we do here, but what she was saying was what was being reported.

http://www.myfoxillinois.com/dpp/news/dpgo-anthony-discovery-orl-fc-200911061257522910711
More discovery released in Anthony case
Updated: Saturday, 07 Nov 2009, 11:30 AM EST
Published : Friday, 06 Nov 2009, 10:38 AM EST
MyFox Orlando Report
ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. (WOFL FOX 35)
The FBI lab revealing a syringe contained ethanol testosterone
and trace amounts of chloroform.

http://www.newstin.co.uk/rel/uk/en-010-019913607
Nov. 6, 2009 at 2:21 PM ORLANDO, Fla., Nov. 6 (UPI) --
FBI lab technicians said traces of chloroform were inside a bottle and a syringe found near the Florida site where Caylee Marie Anthony's remains were found.

http://www.wikio.co.uk/news/Casey+Anthony
Casey Anthony evidence released
She highlighted that chloroform and cleaning fluid were found in a Gatorade
bottle and that chloroform was found in a syringe inside the bottle.

http://primewriter.com/news-1246-headlines/?p=445
Posted by Melissa Finlay On November - 7 - 2009
Casey Anthony chloroform in syringe
What hadn’t been discussed was the notion that Casey Anthony purposefully and brutally injected Caylee’s little two year old body with a syringe full of chloroform.

(above quotes from individual articles)

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

No problem. I think I have one more thing you may need, just in case you haven't gotten that far in the discovery doc yet.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/CMA/10ppm.jpg

Okay, you're the expert, but in my understanding, we should be able to use the results from this known concentration to normalize the other results and get a ORDER OF MAGNITUDE ESTIMATE.

Now, I've worked with PhD chemists too long to not know that what you're aiming for is the perfect answer. But we don't need the perfect answer. We need a good order of magnitude estimate.

I have come up with 1X10 ppb for 238.1 and 1X10^2 ppt for 240.1.1...but I'm not the expert! So, I'm anxiously awaiting your best jab at this.

How are you doing your calculations? Thanks for the info. I'll take a look and do my best, but I can't agree or disagree until I've seen enough to be certain for myself. I'm not a PhD and not going for perfection... just don't want to rush to a conclusion that isn't the correct one, KWIM? Especially since I'm doing my best to explain my understanding/interpretation of the data to other members... I'd feel really bad if I posted and ended up being wrong simply because I didn't take the time to research thoroughly.
I've got like, five books pulled out and I've got the documents pulled up on the computer and I'm trying to find something....anything...that will make me comfortable with posting a good enough answer. I'm sorry to be so slow, guys. I just feel like if I'm going to give an answer I should be prepared to give the best answer I can give, ya'll work too hard and put too much effort into these cases for me to half-way do my part just to give a quick answer. Sorry it's taking longer than I meant for it to.

 

[carrie]

Sorry to be a pain, I know we're all tired of this discussion and of not having a conclusion yet, but do you have a link to where it says that there was no chloroform? I've been looking for this for a while and end up needing more info each time I get close to thinking I've found what I need. TIA!!

11984 - 11985 is where the report "summary" in English (as opposed to numbers lol) seems to be at this link:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/11911-11987.pdf

the whole thing is about the testing, as is this section of the docs:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/11571-11670.pdf

FWIW, as i see vallhall already gave you what you probably need.

 

[Just Jayla]

Looks like chloroform was a considered element in the production of anabolic steroids, back in 1955:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qg...ge&q=anabolic steroids and chloroform&f=false


Sorry if this is muddying the waters, as I see there is a question about what the docs say about choloroform in the bottle or syringe....and hopefully chloroform is not used to make injectable steroids, but thought I'd attempt at any connection.

 

[QuietStorm]

I sure hope whoever is "judging" remembers the little ones she advocates for. There just may be balancing of the scales. IMO the good outweighs the bad. Luckily for me I can think for myself.

Me, too. I watch as often as I can because I want to see these cases closed. I don't always agree with NG and hate the repetitions and the theatrics, but the theatrics are not why I watch.

I support these poor crime victims and I watch many shows that discuss their cases. I too can think for myself and weed out the junk.

 

[carrie]

But like many other prescription meds they can be sold on the blackmarket.
The fact that it was found in a wooded area points to it not being obtained legally, imo.
Exactly. Thanks.


I had a history of intravenous drug abuse (10+ years ago) and we would shoot up just about anything.

I don't imagine then, your having known drug abusers, that you'd find it hard to believe they use just about anything as pipes for smoking as well - including toilet paper rolls like the two found in the Gatorade bottle? And that lots if not most drug abusers abuse more than one drug, often simulataneously, lol, and at times in groups of two or more people. :wink:

I personally never injected alcohol, but knew others who did.
Am I right in thinking that there was more ethanol than testosterone in the syringe? Yes.

Wonder if it showed signs of being bent, or blunted which would mean it had been used several times. I know that we used to clean out the syringes with alcohol or boiled water for reuse when running low on syringes, so that the blood didn't clog it up, but we never left the alcohol sitting in it. But we would pre-prepare the syringes with our drug of choice for later use.

I was thinking the same thing. I knew heroin addicts who used to rinse their works in alcohol after each use before putting them away to re use later. I thought that might be the source of the alcohol too.


I'm leaning toward the gatarade bottle and its contents not being connected to the case....

I'd be surprised if it was connected as well. Anything's possible (but not probable.)

but if it is connected its going to be interesting to see who was using the testosterone.
I keep thinking about Kc's visits to I.D's gym, and her plans to get fit and work out more. I guess it's possible she picked it up there, but I doubt it.
JMO

BTW - Thanks for your post and your candor.

ETA statements in red added by me.

 

[Valhall]

How are you doing your calculations? Thanks for the info. I'll take a look and do my best, but I can't agree or disagree until I've seen enough to be certain for myself. I'm not a PhD and not going for perfection... just don't want to rush to a conclusion that isn't the correct one, KWIM? Especially since I'm doing my best to explain my understanding/interpretation of the data to other members... I'd feel really bad if I posted and ended up being wrong simply because I didn't take the time to research thoroughly.

I absolutely understand.

Assumptions: Irrespective of TRUE sample size, test sample size is brought to same volume. (This is based on my own experience in that all HS-GC VOC testing I have been involved with (note I don't do them!) have required the same sample size at all times.)

Second, it is my understanding the amount of solvent to bring a TRUE sample to the test volume is taken into account in the test.

Third, I know that to get an accurate concentration requires getting the area under the peak(s), but in this instance that is not possible for several of the tests due to the quality of document we have to work with, so the aim is to get an estimate on order of magnitude.

So in estimating an order of magnitude I took the 10 ppm control test and simply used it as a normalizing factor for the abundance on the other test results.

So for 238.1 we have an abundance on the chloroform of approximately 1300 which should normalize to an order of magnitude of

1300*(10/1,300,000) = 1X10 ppb

where 1,300,000 is the abundance for the control 10 ppm sample. That's the "big hammer" method I used. I know - it has no finesse, but what I'm waiting to learn is if it is sufficiently sound to estimate order of magnitude.

 

[cecybeans]

At the risk of being labelled a Gen-W (W being for Woodstock), I seem to remember people using toilet paper rolls in a pinch to smoke, uh, various things. Perhaps they do it differently these days, but I also remember such "pipes" as having a hole cut out of the top and perforated aluminum foil inserted to make the "bowl". Unless the toilet paper roll looked like that, I'd say it was just there to hide a syringe or to keep it from poking through.

Also, did I read this right and was the syringe inside the cardboard tube and the tube inside the Gatorade bottle? The bottle is described as being 3/4 full, IIRC. Wouldn't that have made the cardboard tube soggy? Please, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong; I'm having puter problems tonight and don't want to go looking for the doc. TIA.

 

[Just Jayla]

At the risk of being labelled a Gen-W (W being for Woodstock), I seem to remember people using toilet paper rolls in a pinch to smoke, uh, various things. Perhaps they do it differently these days, but I also remember such "pipes" as having a hole cut out of the top and perforated aluminum foil inserted to make the "bowl". Unless the toilet paper roll looked like that, I'd say it was just there to hide a syringe or to keep it from poking through.

Also, did I read this right and was the syringe inside the cardboard tube and the tube inside the Gatorade bottle? The bottle is described as being 3/4 full, IIRC. Wouldn't that have made the cardboard tube soggy? Please, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong; I'm having puter problems tonight and don't want to go looking for the doc. TIA.

That's how I took it, that the roll was inside the Gatorade bottle and probably soggy. I would think to hide the needle inside, she could carry it to the trash that way right in front of someone and they would never see the syringe. Not that she did carry it to or from anyone's trash, just visualizing why they would be put together like that.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

I absolutely understand.

Assumptions: Irrespective of TRUE sample size, test sample size is brought to same volume. (This is based on my own experience in that all HS-GC VOC testing I have been involved with (note I don't do them!) have required the same sample size at all times.)

Second, it is my understanding the amount of solvent to bring a TRUE sample to the test volume is taken into account in the test.

Third, I know that to get an accurate concentration requires getting the area under the peak(s), but in this instance that is not possible for several of the tests due to the quality of document we have to work with, so the aim is to get an estimate on order of magnitude.

So in estimating an order of magnitude I took the 10 ppm control test and simply used it as a normalizing factor for the abundance on the other test results.

So for 238.1 we have an abundance on the chloroform of approximately 1300 which should normalize to an order of magnitude of

1300*(10/1,300,000) = 1X10 ppb

where 1,300,000 is the abundance for the control 10 ppm sample. That's the "big hammer" method I used. I know - it has no finesse, but what I'm waiting to learn is if it is sufficiently sound to estimate order of magnitude.

Trying to figure this out has gotten on my nerves to the point that I'm ready to take the documents to the lab, try to open their results with some GC-MS software that I'm familiar with, run my own darn standard solutions, and get the freaking answer myself! If nothing else I'll have to bust out the calculus book and integrate this darn peak myself.... hope it doesn't come to that!! Either way we're gonna get the answer.... the RIGHT one... or I'm gonna end up going insane!

 

[MvD]

IMO, that syringe did not come from smeone diabetic... The needle in the photos appears to be ones that are used for I'm injections... Insulin injection needle are way way shorter and thinner. Huge difference in gauge sizes between the 2... My mom has diabetes so I'm very familiar with those injections... And I have B12 defiency, which requires me to give myself I'm injections. (And an aside, I have a whole bag of syringes for I'm injections that my dr gave me an Rx for - so they aren't that hard to come by). If I had to guess ... I'd say KC snagged that syringe from someone that was injecting steroids.

 

[Valhall]

Trying to figure this out has gotten on my nerves to the point that I'm ready to take the documents to the lab, try to open their results with some GC-MS software that I'm familiar with, run my own darn standard solutions, and get the freaking answer myself! If nothing else I'll have to bust out the calculus book and integrate this darn peak myself.... hope it doesn't come to that!! Either way we're gonna get the answer.... the RIGHT one... or I'm gonna end up going insane!

Sounds great and in the meantime I'm cornering a couple of chemists and our GC dude and asking some questions tomorrow! Let's agree to meet tomorrow and compare notes!

Until then...I've gotta get some sleep. My grandson wore me out this weekend.

 

[RR0004]

Some have referred to this bottle and syringe as the smoking gun.
It has already been brought up and implied that these results seal the deal.

Oh yeah...I remember that about 1000 posts ago. LOL

Thanks JB.

 

[cecybeans]

TIA to Valhall and DM2 for your work - and for the additional effort in dummying it down for us chemtards!

 

[carrie]

Looks like chloroform was a considered element in the production of anabolic steroids, back in 1955:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qg...ge&q=anabolic steroids and chloroform&f=false


Sorry if this is muddying the waters, as I see there is a question about what the docs say about choloroform in the bottle or syringe....and hopefully chloroform is not used to make injectable steroids, but thought I'd attempt at any connection.

I think there was another poster who mentioned that connection earlier. Something about chloroform being connected to testosterone. Can't remember which post.

 

[magic-cat]

At the risk of being labelled a Gen-W (W being for Woodstock), I seem to remember people using toilet paper rolls in a pinch to smoke, uh, various things. Perhaps they do it differently these days, but I also remember such "pipes" as having a hole cut out of the top and perforated aluminum foil inserted to make the "bowl". Unless the toilet paper roll looked like that, I'd say it was just there to hide a syringe or to keep it from poking through.

Also, did I read this right and was the syringe inside the cardboard tube and the tube inside the Gatorade bottle? The bottle is described as being 3/4 full, IIRC. Wouldn't that have made the cardboard tube soggy? Please, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong; I'm having puter problems tonight and don't want to go looking for the doc. TIA.

OT:
You remember a lot about those pipes don't ya cecy? lol:crazy:

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Sounds great and in the meantime I'm cornering a couple of chemists and our GC dude and asking some questions tomorrow! Let's agree to meet tomorrow and compare notes!

Until then...I've gotta get some sleep. My grandson wore me out this weekend.

Fabulous! I'll do the same tomorrow... hopefully this is just a matter of me being a dummy and having missed something. If my resources are just as "duh" as I am, I'll get started with whatever I can that'll help get us to the answer. We will get it figured out one way or the other, it's just taking us a little longer than we expected. No worries!

 

[WhyaDuck?]

TIA to Valhall and DM2 for your work - and for the additional effort in dummying it down for us chemtards!

Undergrad Chem was the most work I ever did for a B; I'm also more proud of that B than a lot of the A's I got in less mind-boggling subjects.

I should get "Hard Working Chemtard" put on a t-shirt for myself.